The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[razzelflabben]

Hello? You aren't paying attention to what I said...I was very clear.

you said that you didn't think "fair" was a matter of perspective and yet I showed you a clear example in which it was and your only response was to ignore the perspective so that you could "fix" a problem that couldn't be fixed. Not helpful, not even what I wanted, I wanted a response to the point I was making not some repeat of your position while ignoring the point I was making. It's called fair and honest debate....which is all I asked for from anyone on these boards.

 

[Kenny'sID]

you said that you didn't think "fair" was a matter of perspective and yet I showed you a clear example in which it was and your only response was to ignore the perspective so that you could "fix" a problem that couldn't be fixed. Not helpful, not even what I wanted, I wanted a response to the point I was making not some repeat of your position while ignoring the point I was making. It's called fair and honest debate....which is all I asked for from anyone on these boards.

OK, don't think and response I give I can help ya'.

 

[razzelflabben]

OK, don't think and response I give I can help ya'.

lol isn't it funny that I give you an analogy to prove my point and you can't respond to it but you can accuse me of not thinking and not accepting your help in understanding...if you would simply address my point as I presented it we could move on...or maybe, you can't which is why the attitude? Maybe your inability is evidence that I am right on the matter? Hum...something worth thinking about isn't it?

 

[Kenny'sID]

lol isn't it funny that I give you an analogy to prove my point and you can't respond to it but you can accuse me of not thinking and not accepting your help in understanding...if you would simply address my point as I presented it we could move on...or maybe, you can't which is why the attitude? Maybe your inability is evidence that I am right on the matter? Hum...something worth thinking about isn't it?

Yep, hilarious, are we done yet?

 

[razzelflabben]

OK, I was involved in that post but trust God is both fair and just. I know you see a difference but to me true justice is almost always a striving for fairness, and there is a such thing is fair. Now if some greedy doofus wants to throw a fit and claim things aren't fair because say for instance, the judge didn't give him all he expected to get/wanted in the divorce settlement, that's fine and it could even be all about the perspective you mention, bit that doesn't mean there wasn't or can't be a fair dividing there. Sure, even our court system drops the ball on fairness, which is justice, sometimes, but again, that doesn't mean there is no such thing as you suggest. Then there are the verdicts whether in the courts or whatever, that are passed down and most everyone says, Well, "I think that was fair"

I have complete confidence God can and will handle that better than anyone we know. He has all the details all the evidence, and a sense of fair play that is unmatched.

FWIW, here is how Merriam-Webster defines justice....they are pretty much, if not identical in meaning:

1 : the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments b : judge c : the administration of law; especially : the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity

2 : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b (1) : the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2) : conformity to this principle or ideal : righteousness c : the quality of conforming to law

3 : conformity to truth, fact, or reason : correctness


Seems to me you are saying that if we say justice is fair, though it may be defined that way, that's not really the reality because of this that or the other reason.

But as I see it, thinking it isn't reality, is not the reality. We often make it seem like it's not, because so many of us are the doofuses I mentioned. Or... the definition is fine, the people are not. Your chicken and berry dinner thing could have been solved in a 100% fair manner, by giving you berry pie to them and them giving you their chicken. If their wasn't enough berry pie for those who wanted it, divide it equally among them and if they still didn't get as much as they wanted, that doen't mean it wasn't divided fairly as both justice and the food was served fairly...pun intended.

as I reread this, just to be "FAIR" I would add this, like torment, torture is torment but torment is not always torture. Likewise, where as even by definition, justice is fair, not everything that is fair is just. for the very reason and analogy I provided. In order to counter my point you need to do one of two things, 1. show how fair is not a matter of perspective which you already admitted it is and/or 2. show any scripture that says God is fair.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It seemed important to look at the original and it's not complicated declension (nouns) or conjugation (verbs), in is ἐν, a preposition simply meaning in, a flame φλόξ. Here's the interesting part, look how the word for flame is used elsewhere:

• And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. G5395 (Luk 16:24)
  
• And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame G5395 of fire in a bush. (Act 7:30)
• In flaming G5395 fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (2Th 1:8)
  
• And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame G5395 of fire. (Heb 1:7)
• His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame G5395 of fire; (Rev 1:14)
• And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame G5395 of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; (Rev 2:18)
  
• His eyes were as a flame G5395 of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. (Rev 19:12)

Strong's G5395 - phlox

Well, if that is the case, then one must concede that the flames in hell are not all that painful as real flames whereby the rich-man was able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham. If one is comfortable with the idea that God tortures people for thousands of years in hell (and for all eternity in the Lake of Fire) and they believe that is fair, good, and just, then they can go right ahead and believe that. From my perspective, it sounds like over kill in punishing somebody. It also does not sound consistent with a loving God who died for the sins of the entire world.

Anyways, in Genesis 18, we see Abraham lift up his eyes (which is similar wording of the Rich-man lifting up his eyes in Luke 16) when he encountered the three strangers. We then see Abraham later witness the aftermath of the destruction of Sodom whereby he was more than likely worried for Lot (Who was family) (Genesis 19:27). But what does the fire tell us in Genesis 19? Well, the fire consumed the city of Sodom and it did not continue to burn for all time. Destruction was the aftermath and billowing smoke was the mark of it's ruin. Just as the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever. It tells us of destruction and not on-going everlasting punishment. In fact, you will find nowhere in Scripture where God endlessly tortures his enemies in the real world. This should tell us something.

Anyways, I will have to reply to the rest of what you had written later.

May God bless you.
And please be well.


...

 

[razzelflabben]

Well, if that is the case, then you must concede that the flames in hell are not all that painful as real flames whereby the rich-man was able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham. If you are comfortable with a loving God doing that to people for thousands of years and you believe that is fair, good, and just, then go right ahead and believe that. From my perspective, it sounds like over kill in punishing somebody. It also does not sound consistent with a loving God who died for the sins of the entire world.

I keep asking this and no one will give me a straight answer, can you help? What passage says God is doing anything but carrying out the law of death for sin? Even you say, "if you are comfortable with a loving God doing that to people for..." What passage says God is doing anything but carrying out the law of sin and death?

Anyways, in Genesis 18, we see Abraham lift up his eyes (which is similar wording of the Rich-man lifting up his eyes in Luke 16) when he encountered the three strangers. We then see Abraham later witness the aftermath of the destruction of Sodom whereby he was more than likely worried for Lot (Who was family). But what does the fire tell us in Genesis 18? Well, the fire consumed the city of Sodom and it did not continue to burn for all time. Destruction was the aftermath and billowing smoke was the mark of it's ruin. Just as the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever. It tells us of destruction and not on-going everlasting punishment. In fact, you will find nowhere in Scripture where God endlessly tortures his enemies in the real world. This should tell us something.

again, this claim that God tortures people keeps coming up but I see no evidence in scripture being provided that God tortures anyone. Some have tried to claim that torment and torture are the same word but definitions say otherwise. Likewise there is nothing I have seen in scripture and I keep asking for those passages that say that God is doing anything but carrying out the law of sin and death...please provide the passages you all are basing these claims on....

 

[Kenny'sID]

*Sigh

2. show any scripture that says God is fair.

Had you been paying attention, you'd a seen where I already showed you. Just take every scripture where it says God is just and realize that and fair are one in the same, as in this part of the definition I posted earlier:

2 : the quality of being just, impartial, or fair b

Has anyone ever told you, you're painful to talk to?

 

[razzelflabben]

as I see the disagreements over this issue, it all boils down to two things 1. what God's role in the whole thing is and 2. does man cease to exist or face eternity in heaven or hell....

As to the first, I have yet to see any passages presented that support the God is a torturer as to the second, no one has yet that I recall challenged the scriptures that clearly state that the false prophets (men) will be in hell for eternity, in pain and agony. Now it could be argued that false teachers will be conscious for eternity, but personally think that is a huge stretch to say only false teachers will be there for eternity and no other humans.

 

[razzelflabben]

*Sigh



Had you been paying attention, you'd a seen where I already showed you. Just take every scripture where it says God is just and realize that and fair are one in the same, as in this part of the definition I posted earlier:

another face palm...they are NOT the same and the definitions show that...so no you didn't you showed passages I already pointed out that show God is just but none that show God to be fair or moral.

Has anyone ever told you, you're painful to talk to?

yeah, in fact, one of my kids proclaimed they hated talking to me because I was always right....hahahaha how is that for being a royal pain to talk to

 

[mmksparbud]

you still haven't shown a single passage that says that God tortures anyone but you all keep insisting that torture and torment are the same thing and even then you refuse to post a single passage that says that God is torturing anyone...why? Hell is said to be torment, but nothing mentioned about God torturing anyone and yet you base your belief that God tortures people on the bible without a single passage that says He tortures anyone....isn't that odd? You base your belief about God torturing man on the Bible but cannot present a single passage that says that God tortures anyone....where I come from, if you want to claim the Bible says something you have to present at least one passage that can be twisted that way....

and that is if we ignore all the definitions and other things you have been shown about the differences in the words.

You really do not read what I say---I said there is the theory that God does not torture/torment anyone, it is torment brought about by our own conscience--
That's beside the point--what I can not get you to confront is that it doesn't matter who does what, the torment/torture/discomfort, or just plain nothingness that the different versions of hell describe---all go on FOREVER. That is the point that I have repeatedly objected to that you will not answer to.

Scriptures that imply destruction (annihilation): 26
Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
Isa 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”
Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
James 4:12a “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (Another translation for this verse reads):
(2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”)





Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

scriptures that imply eternal hell: 11
Isa 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Jude 1:7 ESV
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Isaiah 66:24 ESV
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Mark 9:43-48 ESV
"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Mark 9:43 ESV
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Daniel 12:2 ESV
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Jude 1:13 ESV
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I think I got them all--this had been presented before, yet no one addresses the point. This is a matter of believing in the immortality of the soul--Not of hell. We all seem to believe in hell, there may be different interpretations of what that means, but the point is--is this eternal or not!?

I've put up the verses disputing the immortality of the soul, but they were ignored in favor of a continuing battle over what does or does not happen in hell and who does what. Whether it's a feather on the end of your nose, or your eyeballs being ripped put of your head, whether it is done by God, by no one, by ourselves, by Satan, or if nothing at all is being done and we are in a void of nothingness----is it eternal or is it not--Goes God have the right to utterly destroy the sinner or not?!!
He is the potter, we are the clay. He can do whatever He wants as far as I am concerned and that includes the total and complete destruction/annihilation of all sinners. What does the bible say?

 

[razzelflabben]

You really do not read what I say---I said there is the theory that God does not torture/torment anyone, it is torment brought about by our own conscience--
That's beside the point--what I can not get you to confront is that it doesn't matter who does what, the torment/torture/discomfort, or just plain nothingness that the different versions of hell describe---all go on FOREVER. That is the point that I have repeatedly objected to that you will not answer to.

what I can't get you to understand is that your objection is with the law not with God. See, you keep saying God is this and that, none of the options you present show the law being the one that sentences people to death. It is an important distinction to make. In fact, it can make or break the whole thing. In fact, when I have asked you all how it is immoral, unjust or otherwise unfair to have pain from stubbing your toe (consequence) no one responds.

But let's talk more permanent...my aunt had a finger torn off when she got it caught in a machine. Losing a finger was the consequence of having her hand get caught in the machine. It is a permanent loss, she will never have her finger back. How is that "torment/torture" of losing a finger in any way as evil as you are portraying God and hell? Consequences are not evil per say, yet you all refuse to show how they are evil when it comes to God and hell. That is the point.

Scriptures that imply destruction (annihilation): 26
Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish”
Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.”
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Psa 34:21 Evil shall slay the wicked: and they that hate the righteous shall be desolate
Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psa 92:7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:
Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.”
Isa 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Oba 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Oba 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish”
Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“
2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …”
1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”
2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“
Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“
James 4:12a “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. (Another translation for this verse reads):
(2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”)

dealt with those and showed how they are compatible with the passages that say the suffering is eternal...now it's your turn to show how the passages presented that show hell is eternal torment are compatible with the idea that people cease to exist in hell....see how this works. it's a give and take, show how they all fit together to form one understanding, from one God who authored the Bible....or do you not think that the Bible is God's word?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

scriptures that imply eternal hell: 11
Isa 1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.
Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Jude 1:7 ESV
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Isaiah 66:24 ESV
“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Mark 9:43-48 ESV
"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’
Mark 9:43 ESV
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire.
Daniel 12:2 ESV
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Jude 1:13 ESV
Wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

I think I got them all--this had been presented before, yet no one addresses the point. This is a matter of believing in the immortality of the soul--Not of hell. We all seem to believe in hell, there may be different interpretations of what that means, but the point is--is this eternal or not!?

this is what I am asking you to reconcile....the first passages suggest that man is "destroyed" but the translations allow for that destruction to not be destruction at all. The second set of passages say eternal, there was a long discussion about what eternal means but given the lang. translations it means to go on and on, in fact to repeat the term means that it is exaggerated. So we need to reconcile the two. As I understand it and have stated, the two are reconciled if we understand the meaning of the words used and how they can be translated. You offer nothing I can find in reconciliation of the two.

We could turn that into a discussion about the immortality of man but again I offered passages saying both and showed that the passages are reconciled if we look at the context and allow us to tell us that perspective is important in understanding. For example, are we talking about the flesh of man or the spirit of man. (those passage were presented many times over now) So I still need you to reconcile both sides together to make one consistent understanding of God's holy word.

I've put up the verses disputing the immortality of the soul, but they were ignored in favor of a continuing battle over what does or does not happen in hell and who does what.

I didn't ignore them, some may have....I asked you to show how to reconcile those passages with the ones that show an immortal soul/spirit. I didn't see you do that. If I missed that post please summarize or direct me to it.

Whether it's a feather on the end of your nose, or your eyeballs being ripped put of your head, whether it is done by God, by no one, by ourselves, by Satan, or if nothing at all is being done and we are in a void of nothingness----is it eternal or is it not--Goes God have the right to utterly destroy the sinner or not?!!

Okay, I don't remember if we talked about this here or on another thread so I will summarize and if need be we can go back into more detail....IF (since I can't get anyone to talk about it directly, we will assume it for the sake of this discussion) the problem you have is with the law as in the consequence of sin is death, and not God, then God would have had to create man differently in order to do away with the suffering, right? You know, if you sin you die is the law. I don't want to die (eternal death in both cases) so since it is the nature law of the created man and God the only solution would be to create man differently, right? Right! How should man be different? 1. he has no choice 2. he does not exist 3. he is incapable of feeling anything or something else...please provide some specifics that you would be okay with that would allow the law to no longer be a problem...you see, even if man is only temporal as in only flesh and not spirit, then he could NOT live for eternity with God. that is the natural law of man and God....in order for man to be able to live with God for eternity, he had to be created LIke God (Gen.) so that they could be joined. So what specifically would you want God to do differently in His creation of man that would satisfy the natural law of man and God that is giving you a problem.

He is the potter, we are the clay. He can do whatever He wants as far as I am concerned and that includes the total and complete destruction/annihilation of all sinners. What does the bible say?

Sure, I agree, but you find a moral objection to eternal hell which is the natural law of man and God, so propose a different solution that you would be okay with...just for fun. No one is telling God to change anything, we are just talking about what options are available.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rev 13;18 most certainly is not a command to count numbers as part of wisdom.

NET Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast's number, for it is man's number, and his number is 666.
ISV Rev 13:18 In this case wisdom is needed: Let the person who has understanding calculate the total number of the beast, because it is a human total number, and the sum of the number is 666.
ESV Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. ​

Saying "John 3:16," or any other chapter and verse, has nothing to do with numerology.

Numerology is pagan (i.e. which is attempting to foretell the future using numbers). But numbers in and of themselves are not evil. Numbers are a part of our every day life. Surely God did not create numbers to be meaningless background noise. For God created all things for His glory. That is what the purpose of numbers are for in the Bible. Numbers glorify God. Numbers exist in the BIble as yet another evidence that His Word is divine and true. As a matter of fact, counting numbers is what God's Word tells us to do to gain understanding. Or have you completely ignored numbers like 7 being perfection or completion and 40 representing a trial or test?

...

 

[Der Alte]

Numerology is pagan. Counting numbers is what God's Word tells us to do to gain understanding. Or have you completely ignored numbers like 7 being perfection or completion and 40 representing a trial or test?
...

Wrong! Your one proof text is not a command to count numbers to gain understanding as I have shown.

NET Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast's number, for it is man's number, and his number is 666.
ISV Rev 13:18 In this case wisdom is needed: Let the person who has understanding calculate the total number of the beast, because it is a human total number, and the sum of the number is 666.
ESV Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. ​

 

[mmksparbud]

what I can't get you to understand is that your objection is with the law not with God. See, you keep saying God is this and that, none of the options you present show the law being the one that sentences people to death. It is an important distinction to make. In fact, it can make or break the whole thing. In fact, when I have asked you all how it is immoral, unjust or otherwise unfair to have pain from stubbing your toe (consequence) no one responds.

But let's talk more permanent...my aunt had a finger torn off when she got it caught in a machine. Losing a finger was the consequence of having her hand get caught in the machine. It is a permanent loss, she will never have her finger back. How is that "torment/torture" of losing a finger in any way as evil as you are portraying God and hell? Consequences are not evil per say, yet you all refuse to show how they are evil when it comes to God and hell. That is the point. dealt with those and showed how they are compatible with the passages that say the suffering is eternal...now it's your turn to show how the passages presented that show hell is eternal torment are compatible with the idea that people cease to exist in hell....see how this works. it's a give and take, show how they all fit together to form one understanding, from one God who authored the Bible....or do you not think that the Bible is God's word?

I AM NOT PORTRAYING GOD IN ANY WAY OTHER THAN WHAT HE SAYS HE IS!! I have never accused God of tormenting/torturing anyone!! Not ever!! Others have and I have only objected to that!! You are only proving my conclusion that you have not read what I have posted!!
"now it's your turn to show how the
passages presented that show hell is eternal torment are compatible with the idea that people cease to exist in hell"

Excuse me??!!! That has been done on this thread-you miss that? You have not presented anhything showing that the soul is immortal!! There are 11 verses implying eternal hell--26 implying destruction. The verses stating the we are all mortal and are given immortality as a gift from
God and only God is immortal have already been posted and you did not regard them.
You have given nothing that denies the fact that eternal life is given to the saved not the lost. Disprove that! That fact alone eliminates eternal hell. And that was brought up at the start of this thread

* to suffer eternally needs eternal life
* you only get eternal life in Christ
* those in Christ do not go to into the fire
* therefore the suffering in "Hell" is not eternal

1 John 3:15—"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
That clearly states no murder has eternal life in him---No unrepentant murder will ever be given eternal life---therefore he can never burn eternally for there is no life in death!


Matt 19:16—"And someone came to Him and said, 'Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?'"

Did Jesus say---You already have eternal life it's just a matter of where you will spend it??
Matt 25:46—"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
This verse admittedly uses the phrase "eternal punishment," but it is juxtaposed against the phrase "eternal life." Death by annihilation in the Lake of Fire could certainly be called "eternal punishment" because it is eternal in its consequences. Consequences--that's a term you seem to like. Death on earth is only temporal because everyone will be raised again at the resurrection. Death in the Lake of Fire, however, is eternal, the 2nd death--there will be no further resurrections from it. Jesus never referred to the 2nd death as sleep, He did the 1st death. There is no waking up from that 2nd death. There is not one single verse that states the wicked are given eternal life in order to spend it in hell.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
They have no life--the wrath of God abideth in him---the 2nd death, no getting up from that.
John 6:40—"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:47—"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."
John 6:54—"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:68—"and Simon Peter answered Him, 'Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life.'"
John 10:28—"and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
Rom 5:21—"so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
This is another very popular verse which is quite clear in its teaching. "The wages of sin is death (not eternal life in hell), but the gift of God is eternal life..."
Gal 6:8—"For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life."
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11).
This was already gone over---it is the smoke that rises-even after something is burned up completely, the smoke is still in the air--like in forest fires--we get their smoke in Nevada from California! Besides---this says "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:" So, throughout eternity, God and the holy angels are going to sit there and watch them being "tormented with fire and brimstone"??!!! People actually believe this??? What?--will they'll be passing the popcorn during this?
I got to take care of my dog---she gets her pain pill now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wrong! Your one proof text is not a command to count numbers to gain understanding as I have shown.

NET Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the beast's number, for it is man's number, and his number is 666.
ISV Rev 13:18 In this case wisdom is needed: Let the person who has understanding calculate the total number of the beast, because it is a human total number, and the sum of the number is 666.
ESV Rev 13:18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666. ​

Well, the Modern Translations love to change things. But the actual Bible for our day says...

"I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom," (Ecclesiastes 7:25)
"Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account..." (Ecclesiastes 7:27).

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." (Revelation 13:18).

Here we see two testimonies in Scripture (saying the same thing):
Wisdom is to count things. It's what the Bible says. You either believe the Bible here, or you don't. If you don't, then lets move on.

Also, this is not the only amazing thing revealed in regards to the numbers in the Bible, either. There is so much more that it would blow your mind. Again, what are the odds of the numbers 666 in Revelation 13 (that talks about wisdom and counting numbers) also appearing in Ecclesiastes 7 (with it being the 666th chapter)?

Furthermore, when the Bible tells you to do something, it is a command. The Bible wants us to have wisdom or understanding by counting a particular number (Which is the mark of the beast). If one is to do so here, then one can do so at another time for another number in the Bible.

...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The judgment is ongoing but the Beast and the False Prophet are unceremoniously tossed into the Lake of Fire, as opposed to standing before God on judgment day. They are already judged, convicted and their final punishment decided forever.

What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?

Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.

"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson

In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

Revelation 20:10 Darby
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."

For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.

So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).

Will the devil really be destroyed?

Well, you may or may not know this, but Isaiah 14:12-20 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 are well known verses amongst Christians that talk about the devil. They are passages that describe both the devil and the evil rulers who were living during that time. Anyways, Ezekiel 28:18 says that the fire will devour the devil and he will be brought to ashes. Isaiah 14:19 says the devil's carcase will be trodden under foot. Meaning he will be nothing but a charred up corpse or a destroyed spiritual body.




...

 

[Der Alte]

Well, the Modern Translations love to change things. But the actual Bible for our day says...
"I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom," (Ecclesiastes 7:25)
"Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account..." (Ecclesiastes 7:27).

Again no command to count numbers for anything! Tell me which website you got all this stuff from? If this theory is correct it would not have taken 2000 +/- for someone to discover it.
By selective quoting you are trying to make this passage say what you want it to.

Ecc 7:25-29
(25) I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:
(26) And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.
(27) Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: [the word counting is not in the Hebrew. DA]
(28) Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
(29) Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.​

This certainly is not a command to count anything! And the writer did not find wisdom or any of the other things he was looking for, "reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:"

"Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six." (Revelation 13:18).
Here we see two testimonies in Scripture (saying the same thing):
Wisdom is to count things. It's what the Bible says. You either believe the Bible here, or you don't. If you don't, then lets move on.

I believe the Bible but I don't believe the twist you are trying to put on the two passages forcing them to say what you want them to.

Also, this is not the only amazing thing revealed in regards to the numbers in the Bible, either. There is so much more that it would blow your mind. Again, what are the odds of the numbers 666 in Revelation 13 (that talks about wisdom and counting numbers) also appearing in Ecclesiastes 7 (with it being the 666th chapter)?

Irrelevant! If this was factual it would not be so obscure and it would not have taken 2000 years +/- for it to be recognized!

Furthermore, when the Bible tells you to do something, it is a command. The Bible wants us to have wisdom or understanding by counting a particular number (Which is the mark of the beast). If one is to do so here, then one can do so at another time for another number in the Bible...

Rubbish! The KJV was not carved in stone on Mount Sinai and carried down by Moses. It is a translation made by mere men and has been found to be lacking. There is no command to count anything. Again I would like to know which heretical website you are getting all this from.

 

[Der Alte]

What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?
Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.
"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson
In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

The fallacy of this argument is it relies on an English word that is not even in the Greek and adding additional words, i.e. "the purpose of" to make it say what you want it to. The word translated "for" in "for ever and ever" is "eis" it means "in" or "into" not "for."
I thought, according to you, that the KJV is the "actual Bible for our day" but note how you refer to other translations when it suits your purpose.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again no command to count numbers for anything! Tell me which website you got all this stuff from? If this theory is correct it would not have taken 2000 +/- for someone to discover it.
By selective quoting you are trying to make this passage say what you want it to.

Ecc 7:25-29
(25) I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:
(26) And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.
(27) Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: [the word counting is not in the Hebrew. DA]
(28) Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found.
(29) Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.​

This certainly is not a command to count anything! And the writer did not find wisdom or any of the other things he was looking for, "reason of things, and to know the wickedness of folly, even of foolishness and madness:"

I believe the Bible but I don't believe the twist you are trying to put on the two passages forcing them to say what you want them to.

Irrelevant! If this was factual it would not be so obscure and it would not have taken 2000 years +/- for it to be recognized!

Rubbish! The KJV was not carved in stone on Mount Sinai and carried down by Moses. It is a translation made by mere men and has been found to be lacking. There is no command to count anything. Again I would like to know which heretical website you are getting all this from.

I believe the Word of God existed perfectly in different forms thru out time. I believe God chose to preserve His Word thru out time in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and English.

As for Biblical Numerics: I find it is best not to discuss something whereby someone does not want to see it. Especially if they are hostile against such an idea. For you can believe whatever you want to believe. Just know that I do not think your view is Biblical.

Anyways, may the Lord's love shine upon you.
And please be well.


...