The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Butch5]

Unless you are denying the KJV is not really God's Word or is Scripture, then I would have to disagree with you. For the words "for ever" are in Scripture or in the KJV.

The KJV, like other English translations, is just that a translation. It is filtered through the belief systems of the ones translating it. They are not without error. Just look at some of the Protestant Bibles and the Catholic you'll see the different beliefs.

Furthermore, seeing you do not have a time machine whereby you have traveled to the past and lived in Bible times whereby you learned Biblical Greek with Paul and others to know for sure with 100% assurance of what Biblical Greek really is saying, you really cannot make a claim like that. You can make an educated guess that is what it may be saying based on the educated guess of scholars and man's account of history (Which may not always be reliable). But you cannot say what you did as fact because you were not there.

I can look at the same texts that the translators of your English Bible look at. They didn't learn Biblical Greek with Paul either. So, if I can't say for certain what the Greek is really saying neither can they.

Also, history is written by the victors. Men are influenced into their own ways. The only thing you can trust is God and His Word. But believe whatever you like. I will trust in God and His Word. Not in some professors or scholars from some Bible school. God is my teacher; And His ways are simple and easy (Whereby I can compare Scripture with Scripture in my own language (that I am intimately familar with) and test the fruit thereof of His Word to see it is true and good).

But you see, you are trusting in some professors and Scholars because. They translated your English Bible. God's word wasn't written in English, it was written in Hebrew and Greek. The English translation is God's word filtered through the minds and beliefs of professors and Scholars.

For some people feel today that they cannot understand God's Word without a Lexicon. Too much trust in what other men are saying versus just trusting in the pure Word of God and His Spirit in personal deep study with God. It's like "Hey but this Bible scholar guy says this and this respective Preacher says this," etc., etc. But where will these men be when we have to give an account to God's Word? Too many today are being led astray by trusting in men's I words rather than trusting the Spirit to teach them.

Then why did you post the lexical definitions of aionios along with the works of men in the other post? They say aionios means forever or eternal. I posted the Scriptures which clearly show that the words are used of finite periods of time. I agree that many are being led astray. One reason is over things like this where words are given meanings that they clearly cannot have.

 

[Butch5]

Yeah, meant to say conscious.


...

There are no verses that say the dead are conscious. There are figurative uses such as Lazarus and the Rich Man, but these don't teach that the dead are conscious. One must come to the text with the belief already. If I told you a joke and said George Washington, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson are all on an island... would you assume I was telling you that they are alive or would it be figurative? Obviously it is figurative as those three men are dead.

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is actually about the Levitical priesthood. When Jesus gives the parable He is speaking to the Pharisees. Right before starting the parable He tells the Pharisees that, 'the Law and the prophets were until John'. Then He says, 'anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. By saying, 'the Law and the prophets were until John' He was telling the Pharisees that their rule over Israel was over. By saying,' he who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery' he was condemning them. The last book of the OT is a rebuke of the priesthood for committing adultery. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man Jesus draws on some OT prophesies and passages that those Pharisees would know well.

The parable further explains what Jesus in Mathew.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 8:11-12 KJV)

This is what we see in the parable. Lazarus is with Abraham and the rich man who is Jewish is cast out.

 

[Hillsage]

Neither is anyone else. Repentance is very much the issue. It means to turn away. If you do not turn away from sin then Jesus can't help you as you have grieved away the Holy Spirit-it is He that convicts of sin.

Then it looks to me like we're down to your unscriptural opinion and my scripturally backed opinion.

 

[mmksparbud]

LOL!! I hold to the scriptures, the word of God---not the opinion of man. I gave scriptures. You wish to ignore them, that is your right.

 

[mark kennedy]

I agree that a full head on Soul Sleep is unbiblical, too. We clearly see the Rich-man being aware that he is in hell or hades. In fact, I see many evidences in Scripture of people being aware of things after their physical body dies. Now, as for a partial Soul Sleep: That is another story. I believe if we sleep in this life, it is very well possible we can sleep in a similar way in the after-life, too (For Jesus related spiritual truth with physical real world examples). The thing is that people will not be sleeping the whole time. While I am not 100% sure there is a partial soul sleep, I believe it is a possibility because it would support the goodness of God and His fair justice. For if people were in hell for 6,000 years versus being in hell for a short time before the Judgment, how is that fair? Is not God into fair justice? I believe He is. So how can we explain it? Well, we also look thru a glass darkly and do not have all the answers concerning the after-life. We can continue to pray and hope God is willing to reveal such things to us in this life (if it is His will).

Anyways, I created a thread here on a "Partial Soul Sleep" (if you are interested).

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-there-be-a-partial-soul-sleep.7912841/


...

I think the Rich man and Lazarus indicates that he is very much conscious and suffering. I don't get any indication of soul sleep so the speculative nature of the discussion makes it difficult to find anything definitive.

Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. The rich man shouted, “Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.” (Luke 16:22-24)
​

In anguish from the flames? This creates quite a problem for me since I know that eventually Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire:

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev. 20:14)
​

There are so many things like this in Scripture, the angels, the rapture, Paul's description of the third heaven, we never seem to get to the bottom of it. The best I can do with this one is that the fire of Hell isn't as hot as the one in the Lake of Fire. As far as partial soul sleep, and by the way I read your OP on the subject, how could I possibly know what kind of a fire imprisons or perhaps annihilates human consciousness. If you get very depressed you can go catatonic and even die from it. The one remaining medical application for electric shock treatments is used only when a patient is in this state, they have to or they will lose them. Being separated from both God and the body is another thing, I really don't know if there is a point where the suffering gives way to being spiritually catatonic, nor do I find a Scriptural basis for it.

he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (Rev. 14:10,11)
​

Like I said, Jesus is pretty much the only one who talked about Hell because he was the only one who really knew anything about it:

If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matt. 5:29,30)
​

When is the wrath of God satisfied, when is the debt of perdition finally fully paid because there is this to consider:

Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:25, 26)
​

What we do know is how to escape this incomprehensible judgment. We have received our last warning and with it the way out.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 13:27-31)
​

They have Moses and the prophets? We have the testimony of Scripture one did raise from the dead. You seem like a serious student of the Scriptures, while we consider these things it's vital to remind anyone who listens that our days are numbered and there is a way of avoiding this. Jesus warns us in the strongest possible terms:

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matt. 7:12-15)
​

If you can forgive then God can forgive you, if he is merciful to you, you must be merciful. It's not an easy path but what real choice is there, you either strive to enter the narrow gate or you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. I have no problem with speculative theology, I actually gained many an insight from it. But let us never forget that the purpose of the warnings we received, concerning Hell, has always been accompanied with the promise and the power of grace to save us through faith. We do well to emphasis that fact.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Kenny'sID]

To me it sounds unfair that "Christians" get their 'get out of eternal hell card' and then sin like hell til they die and go to heaven. You do still sin right? I know I do.

Man, lots of deceitful twist and turns going on today by people trying to defend undefendable points, but I guess that's what it takes.. Did you notice this one? First it was sin like Hell, when that is simply not the case, whatever that means exactly. Sounds like sinning willy nilly, and not caring, when we all know perfecly well we can be forgiven sin as long as we sincerely ask for forgiveness, repent and keep trying not too. I wouldn't call that not caring and certainly NOT sinning like Hell.

In the end that is simply the classic, "we all sin so if one sinner can get to heaven all the others can", period. Simple minded end all, while leaving out pertinent details, and scripture that says anything but that..

And I know that, but for the grace of God, he ought to destroy those sins with you/I too. Thank God He doesn't think like us, but forgave ALL from the cross.

Potentially forgave all. So much I can go into there but suffice to say, what would be the purpose of the narrow road to heaven if we all go to heaven? If what you say were true, there would be no narrow road, just the wide one, and it leads to heaven, yet we know the verse and the warning is there....hmmm.

Still, people will preach that wide, everybody goes, road to heaven when the Bible tells us, that road simply does not lead to there. Can't wait to hear the twist on that verse.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think the Rich man and Lazarus indicates that he is very much conscious and suffering. I don't get any indication of soul sleep so the speculative nature of the discussion makes it difficult to find anything definitive.

Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. The rich man shouted, “Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.” (Luke 16:22-24)
​

In anguish from the flames? This creates quite a problem for me since I know that eventually Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire:

I am not denying the "Story of Lazarus & the Rich-man" as a literal story. I believe it is literal, too (And not allegorical).

In Luke 16:19-31, what folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any flames. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame." the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of the rich-man that made him uncomfortable or tormented. For although I am open to understanding otherwise according to Scripture, I currently do not believe he was in extreme physical pain or torture. For if the Rich-man was engulfed by entire flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would be asking for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. Also, if a person was being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a conversation with you?

Also, hell (hades) is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. For the Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show. This was the flame (in the great gulf) that was in front of the rich-man whereby he was being tormented by the heat of such a flame.

Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, [i.e. the Lake of Fire] and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.[i.e. hell]"

The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. For the English word Hell can be translated as Gehenna in the Greek within the New Testament, which means Lake of Fire. Revelation 20:14 says hell or hades is cast into the Lake of Fire. So what will happen is that island known as hell will either fall down into the Lake of Fire or the Lake of Fire will overflow the island of hell.

Isaiah 34:14
"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, [i.e. hell] and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."

The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. (Rev. 20:14)

The Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" because it is related to the "First Death." The "First Death" is where a person's physical body dies the first time. The Second Death is whereby the wicked's new resurrected body will be die a second time. Hence, why it is called the "Second Death."

There are so many things like this in Scripture, the angels, the rapture, Paul's description of the third heaven, we never seem to get to the bottom of it.

Yes, we look thru a glass darkly.

The best I can do with this one is that the fire of Hell isn't as hot as the one in the Lake of Fire.

Scriptural evidence please.

As far as partial soul sleep, and by the way I read your OP on the subject, how could I possibly know what kind of a fire imprisons or perhaps annihilates human consciousness. If you get very depressed you can go catatonic and even die from it. The one remaining medical application for electric shock treatments is used only when a patient is in this state, they have to or they will lose them. Being separated from both God and the body is another thing, I really don't know if there is a point where the suffering gives way to being spiritually catatonic, nor do I find a Scriptural basis for it.

I am not talking about going into a coma. I am talking about going to sleep either daily like we do in the real world, or going to sleep for long periods of time in hades (i.e. hell). Again, Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by way of pointing us to the real physical world. Even the Canaanite woman expounded upon one of Jesus's parables with a parable (real world example) of her own and Jesus commended her for it. But the thread on a "Partial Soul Sleep" does go into explaining how "sleep" is related to "death."

Revelation 14:10-11

"he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath.

And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. [This is a one time event taking place here - unless of course somebody were to suggest the ridiculous notion that the Lamb and His angels will be present to watch the wicked burn for all eternity or something; Which is pretty sadistic]

And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. [This is a similar phrase from Isaiah 34:10; For it says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet, is Edom (the place) burning today? No. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically about destruction.]

Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name. [Here is what it says in another translation: "And they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image." (Young's Literal Translation–Revelation 14:11) In other words, this event takes place during the time they are worshiping the beast. Meaning, during the time, they are worshiping the beast they will have no rest.]”

(Revelation 14:10-11)

Like I said, Jesus is pretty much the only one who talked about Hell because he was the only one who really knew anything about it:

If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. (Matt. 5:29,30)

Yes, it will be horrible to lose one's whole body to being utterly destroyed in the Lake of Fire versus being in God's Kingdom. Nothing here is mentioned about the pains of the Lake of Fire. Jesus is merely stressing the importance of not missing out on His Kingdom if a person (whether a believer or an unbeliever) were to indulge in the sin of lusting after a woman.

When is the wrath of God satisfied, when is the debt of perdition finally fully paid because there is this to consider:

Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. (Matt. 5:25, 26)

I am glad you brought this verse up. This is talking about fair justice. Jesus says you will not get out of prison until you paid the last penny. Luke 12:48 also confirms God is into fair justice, as well.

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:48).
​

What we do know is how to escape this incomprehensible judgment. We have received our last warning and with it the way out.

Avoiding the issue by mentioning that there is a way of escape does not undo the inhumane concept of Eternal Concious Torment.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 13:27-31)

​

They have Moses and the prophets? We have the testimony of Scripture one did raise from the dead. You seem like a serious student of the Scriptures, while we consider these things it's vital to remind anyone who listens that our days are numbered and there is a way of avoiding this. Jesus warns us in the strongest possible terms:

As I mentioned above, I believe the Story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is a literal story. Oh, and yes, it is a horrible place. But it is not a torture chamber whereby the wicked are being burned alive, though. Again, think of how you could carry on a conversation with someone being engulfed in flames.

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets. “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matt. 7:12-15)

Leads to destruction. Destruction is something whereby something is annihiated or destroyed or ruined.
Narrow road leads to life. This is eternal life whereby the individual is rewarded with living forever. It would not make any sense if the wicked were also rewarded with eternal life.

If you can forgive then God can forgive you, if he is merciful to you, you must be merciful. It's not an easy path but what real choice is there, you either strive to enter the narrow gate or you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. I have no problem with speculative theology, I actually gained many an insight from it. But let us never forget that the purpose of the warnings we received, concerning Hell, has always been accompanied with the promise and the power of grace to save us through faith. We do well to emphasis that fact.

Yes, we have to live out our faith. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
Oh, and yes. We must forgive others, or we will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15).
We are told to fear not the one who can destroy the body, but we are told to fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28).

Grace and peace,
Mark

May God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.



....

 

[Hieronymus]

Still, people will preach that wide, everybody goes, road to heaven when the Bible tells us, that road simply does not lead to there. Can't wait to hear the twist on that verse.

I have a twist on that to maybe consider:
Man's walk on the wide road ends when he dies (the natural physical death).
Then only the narrow path to Heaven remains.
Yes, it's a bit of a twist...
But one is allowed to hope.
And consider this too:
In Adam ALL fell and are sinners.
Didn't God give his unique Son to solve that problem?
Just some thoughts..
(i'm not a universalist, but i can hope.)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are no verses that say the dead are conscious. There are figurative uses such as Lazarus and the Rich Man, but these don't teach that the dead are conscious. One must come to the text with the belief already. If I told you a joke and said George Washington, Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson are all on an island... would you assume I was telling you that they are alive or would it be figurative? Obviously it is figurative as those three men are dead.

The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is actually about the Levitical priesthood. When Jesus gives the parable He is speaking to the Pharisees. Right before starting the parable He tells the Pharisees that, 'the Law and the prophets were until John'. Then He says, 'anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery. By saying, 'the Law and the prophets were until John' He was telling the Pharisees that their rule over Israel was over. By saying,' he who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery' he was condemning them. The last book of the OT is a rebuke of the priesthood for committing adultery. In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man Jesus draws on some OT prophesies and passages that those Pharisees would know well.

The parable further explains what Jesus in Mathew.

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt. 8:11-12 KJV)

This is what we see in the parable. Lazarus is with Abraham and the rich man who is Jewish is cast out.

I am still gathering the verses. So please be patient.

Thanks.


...

 

[Kenny'sID]

I have a twist on that to maybe consider:
Man's walk on the wide road ends when he dies (the natural physical death).
Then only the narrow path to Heaven remains.
Yes, it's a bit of a twist...
But one is allowed to hope.
And consider this too:
In Adam ALL fell and are sinners.
Didn't God give his unique Son to solve that problem?
Just some thoughts..
(i'm not a universalist, but i can hope.)

Sure did, and his son required a few things of us in order to carry out the solution. We accept and meet the requirements or choose not to.

That is if I understand you correctly.

 

[Hieronymus]

Sure did, and his son required a few things of us in order to carry out the solution. We accept and meet the requirements or choose not to.

That is if I understand you correctly.

I guess i'm trying to make a case for universalism here actually...
But you would have to quote mine Scripture for that, which is never a good idea (when it goes beyond proper exegesis).

But frankly i hope even Hitler will (have) come to his senses eventually.
I can't help but perceive every person as 'a victim of the circumstances', as we're suddenly born and discover life and all, on a fallen and cursed planet, where the first person ever born of a woman killed his younger brother...
(he repented though)

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes, it would be nice if Hitler or anyone for that matter came to their senses

I'm with you on the sympathy part, and sometimes think I might want to do things differently than God, but who really knows how he will judge in the end? I mean with extenuating circumstances and all.

I try to remember he is perfectly fair, but at the same time I understand what you mean, fair to us may not be the same as fair to him, or maybe it is? IDK?

But in the end, his ball game so...

 

[Hillsage]

LOL!! I hold to the scriptures, the word of God---not the opinion of man.

Sounds like the airheaded confessions of drunken priests IMO. Thinking one can't be deceived, should be the first clue that YOU just may already BE.

ROM 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly,

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

I gave scriptures. You wish to ignore them, that is your right.

I ignored nothing, show me one, where I did so. And I supported my opinion with scripture in my last post while yours had none...only a repentance side step to avoid saying "I STILL 'SIN, which God hates', and deserve death too". Oh, and it also means you apparently haven't wholly repented either then, doesn't it?

Repentance is very much the issue. It means to turn away. If you do not turn away from sin then Jesus can't help you as you have grieved away the Holy Spirit-it is He that convicts of sin.

Don't you know the scriptures you hold to say that if God doesn't send the Holy Spirit to convict then you can't repent to begin with?

2TI 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

And 'conviction/convincing' from the Holy Spirit is what causes 'repentance'.

JOH 16:8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;

I'm off to New Mexico for the weekend, so I hope you all play nice and make our Father in heaven happy.

 

[razzelflabben]

Oh, don't be silly---it doesn't anger me!! If you wish to believe in an everlasting burning hell of torture--well, that is your right to do so, I believe I already mentioned that.

well personally I believe in the hell talked about in the bible not the torture chamber hell you describe but my personal beliefs are NOT the topic of this discussion, now are they? so instead of going off onto what I believe why not answer and address the points that my posts present?

No, I don't believe in it. And I have read all the arguments about it that there are.

apparently not, you don't seem to have read what I said....or the bible. If you had you would be able to respond to the things you quote not go off on tangents about something altogether different.

I'm 65---yet to hear a new twist on this concept. So--yes, I've thought about it, basically since I was a kid and first read the bible. It was as a pre-teen that I started investigating this as I had trouble reconciling that concept with the God of the bible even when I was outside of the realm of spirituality due to anger issues toward God. I left for over 25 years. When I came back, I was even less inclined to believe that concept and delved into it further. So it is not from peevishness and an unwillingness to think about it that I am not convinced, but from knowing my God, believing in His love and mercy and understanding justice itself and the human need for justice, and the reading of all verses that have any connection to death, and/or hell.

wow, and yet your don't understand that there are several different versions of ECT doctrine at least 3 or 4 of which are on this thread alone and you refuse to address any of the variations that don't line up with your "anger" issues. Remember, you just admitted to anger issues. Bottom line is that you are not accepting what could be, what God says is, if you refuse to even address the varying doctrines on the matter. Which is all I said and asked you for before you went off on this tangent.

God is above our idea of justice. His is pure, tempered with His love and mercy. God doesn't want us to go to hell, He doesn't wish our death and tries everything He can to prevent it.

as far as I know, that is the one consistent part of every version of ECT doctrine.

We are given the assurance of salvation while we are mortal. He gives us the knowledge that we will not die forever, that in a twinkling of an eye, we will be transformed at that last trump. He wants us to trust and to rest in His love. That is why He corrects us. He doesn't want our destruction.

yep, the consistency of ECT doctrine. Not sure why the consistent part gives you problems, but okay...

Eze_33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

again, the one consistent, not sure why you are having problems with that.

We all die--so it is not the first death that God is trying to keep us from, it is that final annihilation that He does not want anyone to go through, least of all Himself. He forever looses someone He has seen since before our birth, while yet in the womb He knows us. You think He wants to say goodbye forever to one of His creatures?--No, much less to have them tortured forever and He has to be the one to keep them in a state of consciousness to endure that pain to begin with. Do you really think He wants to see this once golden child of His called Lucifer, this magnificent being He created and vested with all He could give Him, be destroyed forever? While He hates what He has become, and destroy Him He must--He loved Lucifer as He was originally and every parent forever remembers their child as that innocent, beautiful, little baby in their arms. God is no different. He could no more inflict, nor watch, endless , endless agony of any of His creations.

see, this is where you get off track, there is a difference between wanting something and having it...let me tell you a story.

About 6 years ago, our son died in a freak swimming accident. We desperately wanted to keep him from dieing, but to no avail. Why? Because the consequence of breaking your neck like he broke his, is death. Our wants couldn't keep him alive because death is what happens when that natural law is broken.

Like it or not, one of the versions of ECT doctrine is that hell is the consequence of sin. You refuse to address it and look at it and see what it means to the whole concept of biblical hell (which again like it or not is scriptural) presumably based on your posts because you don't like how that fact prevents you from judging God and others on the matter of hell. You see, I am not even saying you have to believe that it is the consequence of sin, what I am saying is that if you refuse to even address it and consider it, then you are being dishonest in your discussion of the topic. All that I have ever asked on this topic is that you all address what is being said not simply ignore it to proclaim your version of the doctrine truth. I don't even have the pride to do that with what I believe. Rather I look at all versions and question and explore and talk about what it means and doesn't mean. That should be naturally understood from the standpoint of actual discussion of any topic that addressing the post not the poster requires one to actually address the points being made and not some insistence that yours is the only way it is possible without even showing where I might have it wrong. IOW's if you think my understanding is flawed, show in scripture where I am wrong so that we can discuss the topic not just be "preached" at that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong because you say so and at 65 your too afraid to confess you might be wrong.

 

[razzelflabben]

Yes, it would be nice if Hitler or anyone for that matter came to their senses

I'm with you on the sympathy part, and sometimes think I might want to do things differently than God, but who really knows how he will judge in the end? I mean with extenuating circumstances and all.

I try to remember he is perfectly fair, but at the same time I understand what you mean, fair to us may not be the same as fair to him, or maybe it is? IDK?

But in the end, his ball game so...

We go from talking about morality which is shifting sand to talking about fair which is also shifting sand when in reality God is stable, solid ground, aka just.

 

[razzelflabben]

Per modern, western notions of "justice", perhaps. I don't think that justice, as a concept, necessarily requires such an assumption...

websters....Justice...

• : the process or result of using laws to fairly judge and punish crimes and criminals
  

It amazes me how many of you all don't know common definitions of words you all are using. Now if you want to question what law God is using we can talk about that, but Justice requires a law...that is my definition.

 

[razzelflabben]

I disagree. We don't need to know why "it isn't wrong." We may certainly like to know why, but whether we "know" or not does not impact the existence and nature of God.

so it is not necessary to know why we can trust God to NOT be wrong? How sad...how do I know that I can trust God if I don't know why I can trust Him to be right? From someone who has a difficulty with trusting people, I would never come to a saving knowledge of Christ if I didn't know why I could trust Him which I can't trust anyone else.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

so it is not necessary to know why we can trust God to NOT be wrong? How sad...how do I know that I can trust God if I don't know why I can trust Him to be right? From someone who has a difficulty with trusting people, I would never come to a saving knowledge of Christ if I didn't know why I could trust Him which I can't trust anyone else.

Regardless of whether you assert the proposition that you can "know" why God is right, you can't actually demonstrate the same. As there exists nothing independent of God upon which God's "rightness" might be adjudicated, you are left with only an assertion, no demonstration. Faith does not rest upon proof; it, by its very nature, assumes existential risk.

 

[razzelflabben]

as far as partial consciousness goes, the soul/spirit of man according to scripture is not only eternal but the very essence of who you are, iow's it's what makes you you. As such, what happens when we sleep or are put into a drug induced coma? Do we cease to be us? Do we loss all consciousness? What is dreaming but our consciousness working overtime? I don't know, just something to ponder. I'm not sure how to make a case for partial consciousness in scripture, I would be thrilled is someone took a stab at it, but logically speaking I'm not even sure how we could get there.

 

[razzelflabben]

Regardless of whether you assert the proposition that you can "know" why God is right, you can't actually demonstrate the same. As there exists nothing independent of God upon which God's "rightness" might be adjudicated, you are left with only an assertion, no demonstration. Faith does not rest upon proof; it, by its very nature, assumes existential risk.

Yet God says that He is not without a witness....I came to Christ because He was the only logical conclusion to the questions I was asking (longer story than I want to get into here in this thread) He left a witness so to speak. That witness may be different for every single person in the world but that does not mean that witness is not there. When we ask God the question, "why should I trust you" or "are you trustworthy" we are seeking God and what does HE promise all who seek Him? That He will be found! Thus I say that we can know He is trustworthy and we need to ask the question not just assume that He is. In fact, scripture tells us to test all things so that we are not deceived. How can we test the trustworthiness of God is we just close our eyes and say, "I trust without reason". I am not advocating that there isn't a time or place for closing our eyes and trusting, but trust is something we build. Had a whole list of passages we gave to the SS one time of ways that scripture says to build our "trust muscle". Even scripture says to build it, not just blindly close our eyes and pretend.

Alas I think this is starting to get off topic...we can talk more PM if you like but I really don't want to get off topic.