The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[mmksparbud]

deep breath...count to ten...what I am saying is that if you dismiss what scripture says about hell in order to justify who God is, you are ignoring who God is because the two go hand in hand and are a beautiful story if you actually listen to it.

No! I do not dismiss what the bible says, including the ones that seem to imply an eternal hell. Each of those verses have been taken and explained but you, and others who believe this, do not like the explanation of the wording. There have been many threads on this, you can look them up under search. You can look up on the internet and find several sites thst will go into these verses and say the same thing. There are sites, esp under Catholic teachings about eternal hell. Bottom line is---it ends up being a decision for each based on those findings. You wish to believe that an eternal hell is the only way because you believe in an immortal soul----that is still the final deciding point. You then have no choice but to try and reconcile a just, merciful, God with eternal punishing. When the truth of the fact that God does indeed destroy both body and soul in hell, then a just, merciful God that punishes according to works is seen.

"now it's your turn to show how the
passages presented that show hell is eternal torment are compatible with the idea that people cease to exist in hell"
Click to expand...
I have repeatedly done that, but you haven't even attempted to address what I said, only tried to side step and wave it away.

LOL!-----I was quoting you!

 

[Achilles6129]

I don't think the verse you cited indicates an actual parent-child relationship but rather suggests those not of God's kingdom are of a kind with the devil morally to some degree and in their rebellion toward God.

Let me quote another passage then:

"8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil [c]has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [d]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [e]born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: [f]anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." 1 Jn. 3:8-10 (NASB)

But in order to actually be a murderer, one must first have committed murder. This is not the case for every person you call a "child of Satan."

Actually, it is. If you would look at the verses I cited in my OP you would see that:

"20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. " Jn. 3:20 (NASB)

"15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 Jn. 3:15 (NASB)

Now read Jn. 3:20 again:

"20 For everyone who does evil hates (is a murderer of) the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." Jn. 3:20 (NASB)

Does God really love everyone with infinite love? Scripture suggests otherwise:

Since God is infinite love, I would suggest that he does. But I will not argue the point right now.

Who is the "victim" you speak of in point 4? Of what are they a victim?

A human being.

This is getting closer to the truth of things, I think.

Thanks!

No, I don't agree. I think the fundamental problem is that we don't understand God's holiness as we ought and we don't see our sin as He does. We can recognize the heinousness of a crime by the degree of punishment rendered upon it. Steal a cookie from Grandma's cookie jar and you might get a brief scolding if you're caught. Murder someone and you'll spend perhaps the rest of your life in prison. Sin against the Almighty Creator of the Universe who created you and sustains you moment-by-moment and reject the incredible grace and love He has shown you in the atoning death of His Son on the cross and you'll spend all of eternity in the torment of Hell. If God punishes our sin so terribly, we should understand that He does so because our sin is far, far, far, far worse than we are wont to believe it is.

But we sin-cursed creatures neglect to contemplate and consider God's holiness. For the more we do, the more we see our own deep depravity and unholiness. So, instead, we look to justify our sin, to make ourselves more at ease with our wickedness. And some go so far in this as to suggest that if God judges their sin too harshly (ie. Hell), then He must be monstrous and evil. What a thought! If God doesn't go easy sin, if He doesn't treat our sin as we sin-steeped creatures think He ought to, then He's the one with the problem! Incredible! What a perfect example of the depth and incorrigibility of human depravity!

Until we understand God's holiness properly and in so doing see our sin for the profoundly perverse, and evil, and vile thing it is, God's eternal, fiery judgment of it will remain to us an inordinate and unjustifiable thing. Our protests and denials of His eternal punishment, however, do not change the reality of it. We may refuse to acknowledge the bus about to run us over, but it will run us over just the same. So, too, with God. We can refuse to believe that He would ever punish our sin with eternal damnation, but that doesn't mean He won't.

The point is that the crime has to be something absolutely monstrously evil in order to deserve eternal torture in hell. The point of the OP is to try to demonstrate what that crime might be. For example, stealing a candy bar from a convenience store couldn't be considered evil enough to deserve eternal torture, could it?

Psalms 21:8-9
8 Your hand will find all Your enemies; Your right hand will find those who hate You.
9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them.

Selah.

Good passage!

 

[razzelflabben]

No! I do not dismiss what the bible says, including the ones that seem to imply an eternal hell. Each of those verses have been taken and explained but you, and others who believe this, do not like the explanation of the wording. There have been many threads on this, you can look them up under search. You can look up on the internet and find several sites thst will go into these verses and say the same thing. There are sites, esp under Catholic teachings about eternal hell. Bottom line is---it ends up being a decision for each based on those findings. You wish to believe that an eternal hell is the only way because you believe in an immortal soul-

I believe in an immortal soul because scripture says we have an immortal soul, I don't need anything else at this point in my life.

---that is still the final deciding point. You then have no choice but to try and reconcile a just, merciful, God with eternal punishing.

wait a moment, let me yell it at you this time and see if that helps...AS I UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURE, THERE IS NOTHING TO RECONCILE BECAUSE HELL IS NOT PUNISHMENT AT ALL BUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF SIN...THAT MEANS THAT GOD IS MERCIFUL AND JUST AND HELL IS STILL REAL AND ETERNAL....NOTHING AT ALL TO RECONCILE, THEY ARE PART OF EACH OTHER.

When the truth of the fact that God does indeed destroy both body and soul in hell, then a just, merciful God that punishes according to works is seen.

how many times must I say it before you address it, oh wait, you have addressed it and are addressing it even though you haven't even acknowledged that it is a possible much less show how a consequence is inconsistent with a loving a merciful God...so how about it, just summarize all the times you have already addressed what the problem with a loving and merciful and just God and the consequence of hell...in fact, hell is part of a loving and just and merciful God...they are part of one another.

"now it's your turn to show how the
passages presented that show hell is eternal torment are compatible with the idea that people cease to exist in hell"
Click to expand...
I have repeatedly done that, but you haven't even attempted to address what I said, only tried to side step and wave it away.

LOL!-----I was quoting you!

you still haven't addressed what I said...I'm still waiting.

 

[mmksparbud]

I believe in an immortal soul because scripture says we have an immortal soul, I don't need anything else at this point in my life.

But it does not. It says the opposite and that is what you refuse to admit the scriptures do say. And You refuse to see it so therefore you have no choice but to stand on your eternal hell. You can do nothing else.

 

[mmksparbud]

so how about it, just summarize all the times you have already addressed what the problem with a loving and merciful and just God and the consequence of hell...in fact, hell is part of a loving and just and merciful God...they are part of one another.

You want me to summarize a loving merciful God the consequences of hell?? I have. There is no question that there is a hell, there is no question that it is the result of our own decisions, there is no problem with God being merciful and the concept of hell. What is not reconcilable in any way shape or form, is that it is eternal for we do not have an immortal soul and eternal is only that which God gives as a gift to the saved. That has been said from the start, but by your own admission, you refuse to see that when the bible clearly states God alone is immortal. Immortality must be out on, it is a gift from God, not a right of birth.

 

[mark kennedy]

Actually, Mark, the word for "hell" (I'm assuming you're using the KJV) in that passage is actually "Hades." "Hell" as usually understood is actually the lake of fire itself:

"13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. " Rev. 20:13-14 (NET)

Do note they are thrown into the fire.

Compare with the KJV:

"13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." Rev. 20:13-14 (KJV)

Reads about the same


Here's a passage which expressly indicates that it does not:

"10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." Rev. 20:10 (NASB)

That's what I always thought until recently. I'm aware of the exposition pro and con, I simply accept it as a viable interpretation with some reservations

Now correlate that passage with this passage:

"41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" Mt. 25:41 (NASB)

So Satan ends up in the lake of fire and brimstone, being tormented day and night forever and ever. Satan is not annihilated (apparently), so why would anyone who goes with him into the lake of fire and brimstone be annihilated?

I'm entertaining this as a possibility, not introducing it as a dogma. I consider the specifics elusive and the most important thing here is how you avoid Hell, what happens when you get there.

I think that the reason why Christ talks more about hell than anyone else is because he's the only one who's worthy to talk about hell. William Greenough Thayer Shedd said it that way in his work about hell:

https://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-End...s=william+greenough+thayer+shedd+the+doctrine

I would also question why you would be disturbed by a doctrine if it came from God himself?

Its disturbing precisely because it comes from God himself, if you don't find this disturbing your not paying attention. The children of perdition do not fear God, that's how they become children of perdition. David in one of the Psalms that the reason God is feared isn't just the threat of punishment but because there is mercy with him.

What is more, specifically Christ was the only one worthy to reveal these things. Christ is also the one who judges the children of perdition. Christ alone has the power to save from sin, death and Hell.

This topic is pointless if it does not remind us of the gospel.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[razzelflabben]

But it does not. It says the opposite and that is what you refuse to admit the scriptures do say. And You refuse to see it so therefore you have no choice but to stand on your eternal hell. You can do nothing else.

according to the passages I presented, one could take either meaning from scripture...which is what I said. But the only way I have found to reconcile the two so that we don't have to throw out any passages is to understand in context the translation issues that we have. when we do that, there is only one possible that I see, eternal soul/spirit. I have asked you, challenged you, begged you to show me another way to reconcile all the passages and you give me nothing but more...."bit it does not...it says the opposite and that is what you refuse to admit the scriptures do say....blah blah blah." At least I am willing to accept that we can infer both meanings from the scriptures which is why I insist on context and translation to reconcile the two extremes.

You see, I am personally, unwilling to discard passages that don't say what I want them to or that make me a bit uncomfortable. I am only interested in knowing all of God I can possibly know as per the sources He gave us by which to know Him. That means all of scripture. So far, I have yet to find a single issue in scripture that cannot be reconciled with context and translation....I'm begging you to prove me wrong and you just give me your opinion based on your chosen passages.

 

[razzelflabben]

You want me to summarize a loving merciful God the consequences of hell?? I have. There is no question that there is a hell, there is no question that it is the result of our ow n decisions, there is no problem with God being merciful and the concept of hell. What is not reconcilable in any way shape or form, is that it is eternal for we do not have an immortal soul and eternal is only that which God gives as a gift to the saved. That has been said from the start, but by your own admission, you refuse to see that when the bible clearly states God alone is immortal. Immortality must be out on, it is a gift from God, not a right of birth.

Right, like my aunt who lost a finger due to her hand getting caught in a machine is immoral because she has a permanent loss of finger, right? Hum, I'm still trying to figure out how that consequence is immoral....it simply is the result of having her hand caught in a machine that tore her finger off. Please explain how that permanent effect of a lost finger is immoral, I still am not following the many times you apparently told me how it is immoral to face the consequence of her losing her finger....I know I am dense, but I still haven't seen you address either analogy I presented and show how the pain and suffering in them is immoral in any way. Thanks for your patience in this stupid old brain of mine.

As to the rest of this, two problems 1. we don't need to discuss immorality at the moment, it is irrelevant to the question being asked and I am sure that if you are reading for comprehension you can figure that out. 2. I have repeatedly not only admitted and posted passages that seem to contradict one another on this passage and addressed them in context and translation and yet you accuse me of admitting I didn't do that, that is an out and out lie on your part and that is a violation of forum rules.

 

[mmksparbud]

Right, like my aunt who lost a finger due to her hand getting caught in a machine is immoral because she has a permanent loss of finger, right? Hum, I'm still trying to figure out how that consequence is immoral....it simply is the result of having her hand caught in a machine that tore her finger off. Please explain how that permanent effect of a lost finger is immoral, I still am not following the many times you apparently told me how it is immoral to face the consequence of her losing her finger....I know I am dense, but I still haven't seen you address either analogy I presented and show how the pain and suffering in them is immoral in any way. Thanks for your patience in this stupid old brain of mine.

As to the rest of this, two problems 1. we don't need to discuss immorality at the moment, it is irrelevant to the question being asked and I am sure that if you are reading for comprehension you can figure that out. 2. I have repeatedly not only admitted and posted passages that seem to contradict one another on this passage and addressed them in context and translation and yet you accuse me of admitting I didn't do that, that is an out and out lie on your part and that is a violation of forum rules.

That is the problem!! You must cling to the immortal soul for you to be able to take the stand you do! It is the crux of the issue and you refuse to admit that! Every passage of scripture that implies eternal hell has been gone over, and over and none of you will admit to the different meaning because you must still cling to the immortality of the soul. You can not see that God can destroy the sinner completely--your aunt lost a finger -ok-how does that prove hell goes on forever?? It was the result of her actions, how does thst prove hell is forever? I already said, many times, there is a hell, it is due to consequencoes of our own decisions, it is just, --it just is not eternal!!
Other things in the bibe are also described as eternal--eternal fire is described for Sodom and Gomorrah, it is still not burning, unquenchable does not have to mean it will never be quenched, it just means that is can not be out out until it burns itself out. Buildings, and forests have been described as buring with an unquenchable fire-a fire that can not be stopped no matter what is done, it still will eventually burn itself out when there is no more fuel to feed it. The word forever is nit always meant thst way as there are instances thst use thst word but things have not gone one forever---All these things have been gone over and over and shown and shown, but they are ignored. I guess you have no intention of doing any research on it yourself to prove to yourself the truth, you want us to do it, but when we do, you reject it! You can look at all those other threads, do I have to go through them myself and post them, you will still reject. Always because the soule is eternal therefore so is hell---like God has no choice but to keep sinners alive!

 

[mark kennedy]

What is the "Ages of Ages" in Revelation 20:10 talking about?

Revelation 20:10 is indeed saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "the ages of ages." Here are a few translations that express this.

"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament
"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.
"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson

In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages of the Ages. Meaning the Ages of Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" within the English language.

Revelation 20:10 Darby
"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."

For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.

But the Beast from the land and the Beast from the sea, the antitrust and the false prophet have careers that last only seven years. The have the distinction of the first two to be cast in the lake of fire bodily. The Lake of Fire will burn forever, perhaps the alternative reading would be they are cast into the lake of fire that burns forever and ever.

So the "ages of ages" is talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."

This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take it's place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).

Will the devil really be destroyed?

Well, you may or may not know this, but Isaiah 14:12-20 and Ezekiel 28:11-19 are well known verses amongst Christians that talk about the devil. They are passages that describe both the devil and the evil rulers who were living during that time. Anyways, Ezekiel 28:18 says that the fire will devour the devil and he will be brought to ashes. Isaiah 14:19 says the devil's carcase will be trodden under foot. Meaning he will be nothing but a charred up corpse or a destroyed spiritual body.




...

Nice exposition of the Isaiah and Ezekiel passages, you should know that the reason this annihilation idea appeals to me is because I see it as related the the Old Testament concept of Sheol and the grave. Death was seen as the end in the Old Testament, the grave swallows you up and you are no more. Job complains that soon he will pass and God will want to talk to him but he will be gone. However he also says that in his flesh he will see God so he knew about the resurrection. Abraham, we are told in Hebrews, was willing to sacrifice Isaac because he knew God could raise him from the dead. When Samuel was brought back, supposedly by the witch of Endor, he says 'say why are you bothering me, since I'm in paradise.' The are some things about the resurrection and heaven but nothing like what Jesus was telling people.

I believe the first thing Jesus did after his time of testing was to preach the Sermon on the Mount. Just outside a gate the is a small stream and the Kidon valley, the same place Ezra read the Law after Nehemiah had finished the wall. Ezra reports that fourth thousand were in attendance. Jesus Sat up on the hill and for the first time in redemptive history the doctrine of Hell is being taught in power, fron the Son of David, the rightful king and confirmed prophet.

 

[razzelflabben]

That is the problem!!

an issue that isn't as clear as you pretend to make it....so...how about it, if the soul/spirit is immortal as some passage indicate, what is immoral about the eternal consequence of hell....we will come back to the scriptures since you refused to listen to me the first dozen or so times I went over it for you. If eternal torment in hell is the consequence of sin, what is immoral about it? What is there to reconcile with a holy and merciful God? As I said, answer the question and we will review the passages about mortality in a moment.

You must cling to the immortal soul for you to be able to take the stand you do!

honestly, even though you have never heard me say this, I have repeatedly said that the only thing I will "cling" to is the truth of scripture. That is why I have begged you to show me how context and translation issues do not address any of the passages that disagree with an immortal soul/spirit. You just keep saying I refuse this and that even though that is clearly an out and out lie. So how about it, using context and translation show how to reconcile both sides of the issue of mortality so that we don't have to discard any scripture.

It is the crux of the issue and you refuse to admit that!

The crux of the issue is that you have only shown some passages that support your position, removed them from context and from the totality of scripture, further relied on translators which are often wrong to demand that you alone have wisdom on the matter. I on the other hand have shown both sets of passages, presented them in context and in translation and from that found a consistency that allows us to keep all the scriptures in tact without dismissing any. I repeatedly have asked you to challenge my conclusion and all you can offer is false accusations and lies. So, how about it, how about first telling us what is immoral about an eternal hell that is the consequence of sin and second how you want to reconcile all the passages without having to dismiss any of them...it should be simple if you have actually found truth and since I am open to being wrong and have readily said I was and even showed it through looking at all passages and presenting both sides, I would think you could have the decency of at least doing more than falsely accusing me.

Every passage of scripture that implies eternal hell has been gone over, and over and none of you will admit to the different meaning because you must still cling to the immortality of the soul.

lol...try again...saying, "they have been gone over" doesn't say how they were addressed much less the finding. Let me give you an example of a summary

1. In context, the passages that talk about temporal man are talking about the flesh
2. of those that remain, the original word used can mean total annihilation or it could mean something different
3. Of the passages that talk about the immortal soul/spirit, the word used means eternal or something similar and is emphasized by the writer by repeating it, leaving no guessing.
4. the conclusion then is that perspective has a lot to do with our understanding of whether or not man's soul/spirit is immortal and the only consistent finding I can find is man's soul/spirit is immortal. That meaning man is either eternally alive in Christ or eternally dead in his trespasses and sin.

Now see how easy that is to summarize. I have summarized it a dozen different times for you and you still refuse to summarize your findings or challenge mine. That leaves me assuming I must be right because you have no challenge to it and from the standpoint of God being God, I expect the truth of God to not have a flaw that can be challenged.

You can not see that God can destroy the sinner completely--your aunt lost a finger -ok-how does that prove hell goes on forever?? /quote] okay, let's straighten you out again if it is even possible to do.

My aunts finger is an analogy that asks the question if an eternity in hell is the consequence of sin how is it immoral in any way? that is the first question that must be dealt with on this topic. You still refuse to answer the question. Like my aunt never getting her finger back is the long term consequence of it being ripped off, how is the consequence of an eternity in hell immoral?

Instead of answering the question you keep bringing up the immortality or mortality of man. That is a different question altogether. I am not sure how you do not understand that, but okay, you don't. so lets' straighten it out yet again. You are being asked two completely different things. 1. My question to you is how is the consequence of an eternal suffering in hell immoral? that is, if the consequence of sin is eternal death in hell (death meaning second death, separation from God in a conscious state of some kind) how is it immoral? What would need to be reconciled with the goodness of God? 2. You then asked in response about why I don't believe in the mortality of man and I showed you repeatedly and asked you to show the same for your position to which you simply levy false accusations...so the second question you need to answer is how, using context and translation can we reconcile the passages that suggest a mortal soul/spirit with the passages that suggest and immortal soul/spirit so that we do not have to discard any of the passages in order to reconcile our beliefs with a God who cannot lie?

It was the result of her actions, how does thst prove hell is forever?

wow, it is really hard to fathom that you are this hard headed...seriously, it is beyond my ability to comprehend. The analogy is showing that an eternity in hell if it is the consequence of sin is no more immoral than the permanent nature of my aunt not having her finger.

I already said, many times, there is a hell, it is due to consequences of our own decisions, it is just, --it just is not eternal!!

but that isn't the question on the table at the moment and changing the question doesn't make your position sound any better what it does is make you sound like you are being dishonest in your posts. Keep in mind I am NOT saying you are being dishonest I am saying that your changing the question makes it seem like you are. Two different things, this is how your coming across and this is who you are are not the same thing at all. I am addressing how your post comes across nothing at all about you as an individual.

Other things in the bibe are also described as eternal--eternal fire is described for Sodom and Gomorrah, it is still not burning, unquenchable does not have to mean it will never be quenched, it just means that is can not be out out until it burns itself out. Buildings, and forests have been described as buring with an unquenchable fire-a fire that can not be stopped no matter what is done, it still will eventually burn itself out when there is no more fuel to feed it. The word forever is nit always meant thst way as there are instances thst use thst word but things have not gone one forever---All these things have been gone over and over and shown and shown, but they are ignored. I guess you have no intention of doing any research on it yourself to prove to yourself the truth, you want us to do it, but when we do, you reject it! You can look at all those other threads, do I have to go through them myself and post them, you will still reject. Always because the soule is eternal therefore so is hell---like God has no choice but to keep sinners alive!

These claims were addressed many times over....summary 1. when a word is repeated, it intensifies the meaning. IOW's forever and ever means it is more than just forever...2. none of that addresses how if the thing is consumed it can still be suffering, without rest, in anguish, gnashing teeth. These things are included in some of the passages and cannot be overlooked when talking about the intended meaning of the unquenchable fire.

That is enough for the moment, I think you are getting too much information to keep straight what is being asked of you.

 

[Achilles6129]

Its disturbing precisely because it comes from God himself, if you don't find this disturbing your not paying attention.

Hi Mark,

This part of your post is disturbing! Why would a doctrine that comes from God himself be disturbing? Isn't God just?

 

[Butch5]

Well, there are many things in God's Word that are inferred.
I am just going to post verses that I believe that teach that people are conscious after death. Then we can go from there.


...

Inferences are not teaching. They are ideas one draws from how they perceive the text. An inference does not prove the point because it is one opinion of what the text is saying, not what the text actually says.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But the Beast from the land and the Beast from the sea, the antitrust and the false prophet have careers that last only seven years. The have the distinction of the first two to be cast in the lake of fire bodily. The Lake of Fire will burn forever, perhaps the alternative reading would be they are cast into the lake of fire that burns forever and ever.

The beast and the false prophet are demons who inhabit soul-less human bodies. They are in the Lake of Fire for a thousand years because they are demons who tormented mankind for thousands of years and not just during the seven year tribulation. We have to remember that hell was originally created for the devil and his angels. It was not originially intended for man.

Nice exposition of the Isaiah and Ezekiel passages, you should know that the reason this annihilation idea appeals to me is because I see it as related the the Old Testament concept of Sheol and the grave. Death was seen as the end in the Old Testament, the grave swallows you up and you are no more. Job complains that soon he will pass and God will want to talk to him but he will be gone. However he also says that in his flesh he will see God so he knew about the resurrection. Abraham, we are told in Hebrews, was willing to sacrifice Isaac because he knew God could raise him from the dead. When Samuel was brought back, supposedly by the witch of Endor, he says 's by are you bothering me, since I'm in paradise.' The are some things about the resurrection and heaven but nothing like what Jesus was telling people.

I do not believe in a full head on soul sleep. I believe in a partial soul sleep. Meaning, I believe men will be both conscious at certain times and sleep (dream) in the after-life at other times, just like we do here in the physical world. I believe this way because it is not only consistent with Jesus illustrating spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. the parables), but it is also consistent with God's fair justice and Scripture.

...

 

[Butch5]

Verses on being conscious after death:

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Philippians 1:21-23
21 "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better."

"There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44).
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?" (1 Corinthians 2:11).
"And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour." (Luke 1:47).
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

Isaiah 14:9
"Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations."

Isaiah 5:14
"Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

Psalms 139:8
"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

Jonah 2:2
"And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice"

1 Peter 3:18-19
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

Revelation 6:9-11
9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

2 Corinthians 5:1-2
1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:"

Luke 23:43
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

2 Samuel 12:23
"But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

Revelation 20:12-13
12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works"

Matthew 17:1-6
1 "And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid."

Luke 16:19-31
19 "There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."


...

You see, none of these texts teach that the dead are alive. It seems that way to you because you believe that the dead are alive in some way. However, that idea is being brought to the text. I'll bet before you became a Christian you also believed that the dead were alive someone, correct? If so, you already believed that when you began to study the Scriptures. What we have to determine is what the Bible teaches about the state of the dead.

As I posted earlier Moses recorded how God created man in Gen 2:7. He created the man from the dust of the earth. The man was lifeless. Then God breathed into him His breath or spirit of life and the man became a living soul. From this we learn that man is a living soul that consists of two things, the dust of the and the breath or spirit of life from God. We also learn that there is only one spirit in man and that is God's breath or spirit of life. That is what returns to God, it is His. God told Adam that he was dust and to dust he would return. However, we see that man, without God's spirit, is lifeless and inanimate. It's only when God puts His spirit of life in a person that they live.

All of these passages you posted have to be understood within the context of what a man is. If man is dust and can only live when God's spirit of life is in him how can he possible be alive when God's spirit of life returns to Him? Per Genesis 2:7 a living soul requires a body. It was the body that was created from the dust that along with God's spirit of life became a living. Without either of them you don't have a soul. So, if the body is dead it doesn't have God's spirit of life. Therefore it is not a soul. Thus there is nothing left of a man to live on after death. The two parts are accounted for, the body returns to the dust and God's spirit of life returns to Him.

Having said that what do we make of these passages you've posted. Well some of them are obviously figurative. We find figurative language all through the Bible. Some of them are typically misunderstood. Peter was an apostle who lived with Jesus for 3 1/2 years and who had his understanding of the Scriptures opened by Jesus Himself and yet Peter said that some of the things Paul wrote were hard to understand. That should make us consider whether or not we understand Paul correctly. Also, Jesus said that He spoke to the people in Parables so that they wouldn't understand. So we should note who Jesus is speaking to when He speaks.

All of the passages you posted are easily understood in another sense that doesn't require one to believe that the dead are somehow alive. As I said, they all have to be understood in the context of what a man is. I'd be happy to look at any of them in more depth if you'd like.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Inferences are not teaching. They are ideas one draws from how they perceive the text. An inference does not prove the point because it is one opinion of what the text is saying, not what the text actually says.

No doubt you believe the following verse is an inference of conciousness after death.

2 Corinthians 5:8
"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord"

While this passage is not 100% point blank in hitting a person over the head that people will be conscious after death, it does strongly imply that very thing. For the Lord abides in the body of believers. So when the body dies or is shed, they will be present with the Lord. This suggests more than just some kind of soul sleep because it is contrasted with shedding one's body and being present with someone; Which usually involves our participation on our part in being conciously aware. This is what Stephen was seeing close to his death. Jesus. The Lord. He was getting a glimpse of what was to come. To be present with the Lord.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You see, none of these texts teach that the dead are alive. It seems that way to you because you believe that the dead are alive in some way. However, that idea is being brought to the text. I'll be before you became a Christian you also believed that the dead were alive someone, correct? If so, you already believed that when you began to study the Scriptures. What we have to determine is what the Bible teaches about the state of the dead.

As I posted earlier Moses recorded how God created man in Gen 2:7. He created the man from the dust of the earth. The man was lifeless. Then God breathed into him His breath or spirit of life and the man became a living soul. From this we learn that man is a living soul that consists of two things, the dust of the and the breath or spirit of life from God. We also learn that there is only one spirit in man and that is God's breath or spirit of life. That is what returns to God, it is His. God told Adam that he was dust and to dust he would return. However, we see that man, without God's spirit, is lifeless and inanimate. It's only when God puts His spirit of life in a person that they live.

All of these passages you posted have to be understood within the context of what a man is. If man is dust and can only live when God's spirit of life is in him how can he possible be alive when God's spirit of life returns to Him? Per Genesis 2:7 a living soul requires a body. It was the body that was created from the dust that along with God's spirit of life became a living. Without either of them you don't have a soul. So, if the body is dead it doesn't have God's spirit of life. Therefore it is not a soul. Thus there is nothing left of a man to live on after death. The two parts are accounted for, the body returns to the dust and God's spirit of life returns to Him.

Having said that what do we make of these passages you've posted. Well some of them are obviously figurative. We find figurative language all through the Bible. Some of them are typically misunderstood. Peter was an apostle who lived with Jesus for 3 1/2 years and who had his understanding of the Scriptures opened by Jesus Himself and yet Peter said that some of the things Paul wrote were hard to understand. That should make us consider whether or not we understand Paul correctly. Also, Jesus said that He spoke to the people in Parables so that they wouldn't understand. So we should note who Jesus is speaking to when He speaks.

All of the passages you posted are easily understood in another sense that doesn't require one to believe that the dead are somehow alive. As I said, they all have to be understood in the context of what a man is. I'd be happy to look at any of them in more depth if you'd like.

But this concept is flawed because the Scriptures say,

"... thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27).​

For even God has a soul. Granted, God's soul is eternal and uncreated. But the Bible says He has a soul none the less.

• Leviticus 26:11
  And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.
• Leviticus 26:30
  And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
• Isaiah 42:1
  Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
• Zechariah 11:8
  Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
• Matthew 12:18
  Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
• Hebrews 10:38
  Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him

Also, Scripture says there is spiritual body in relation to man's spirit.
It also says, that a person's spirit has a mind.
And also says a person's spirit can express emotions.
The spirit then returns to God (with all these characteristics still intact).
Their return is not in the sense of God destroying man's spirit but it so that they will be judged.


...

 

[mark kennedy]

Hi Mark,

This part of your post is disturbing! Why would a doctrine that comes from God himself be disturbing? Isn't God just?

Of course God is just, it's disturbing because the reality of Hell is simply a horrible reality. I personally find Paul's discussion of sin for two and a half chapters, the he say ' but now' and the righteousness that is by faith is revealed. I did not enjoy coming under conviction for sin or the realization that since Christ died for sin I helped put him there. I find those facts disturbing as I would expect any believer to. The good news is that when the doctrine of Hell is taught in the New Testament the promise of the gospel comes with it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course God is just, it's disturbing because the reality of Hell is simply a horrible reality. I personally find Paul's discussion of sin for two and a half chapters, the he say ' but now' and the righteousness that is by faith is revealed. I did not enjoy coming under conviction for sin or the realization that since Christ died for sin I helped put him there. I find those facts disturbing as I would expect any believer to. The good news is that when the doctrine of Hell is taught in the New Testament the promise of the gospel comes with it.

Yes, Jesus said, I come to give you life and that you may have it more abundantly. I have come to give you eternal life. These sayings would not make any sense if man just was going to have life more abundantly or eternal life on his own (with his soul being immortal already). The gift of eternal life or immortality is tied to the gospel or the life that is in Christ.


...

 

[mark kennedy]

The beast and the false prophet are demons who inhabit soul-less human bodies. They are in the Lake of Fire for a thousand years because they are demons who tormented mankind for thousands of years and not just during the seven year tribulation. We have to remember that hell was originally created for the devil and his angels. It was not originially intended for man.



I do not believe in a full head on soul sleep. I believe in a partial soul sleep. Meaning, I believe men will be both conscious at certain times and sleep (dream) in the after-life at other times, just like we do here in the physical world. I believe this way because it is not only consistent with Jesus illustrating spiritual truth by way of real world examples (i.e. the parables), but it is also consistent with God's fair justice and Scripture.

...

The antichrist and false prophet are men possesed by demons, the antichrist is possesed by Satan himself half way through the Tribulation. I don't know what to tell you about soul sleep but there are two New Testament words for death, thanatos and necros. When the saints die its thanks, everyone else it's necros. Thanatos is often translated sleep, when Paul in 1Cor 11 says some of you are sick and some of sleep he means believers are being judged for the mistreatment of the poor. They were not unconscious, they had died.

Generally when I encounter this doctrine of soul sleep its due to confusion about thanatos and the Old Testament concept of Sheol. You appear to have developed Your ideas directly fron an exposition. All very interesting but as a biblical doctrine I still can't get soul sleep from the proof texts.