The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Hieronymus]

Yes one can. Death is separation.

According to the dictionary those words have different meanings.

The second death is eternal separation from God in full consciousness.

Impossible.

This is God's definition, not yours.

No, it is your fallacious definition.

 

[mmksparbud]

So why did Jesus say things like, "then they will go to eternal punishment and the righteous to eternal life"? Matthew 25:46
And why the story about the rich man and Lazarus? Luke 16:19-31

Lazarus is a parable.
Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire'

Are Sodom and Gomorrah still on fire?---

Mat_3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luk_3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Unquenchable just means it can't be put out till it dies out.
It is everlasting punishment---not everlasting punishing. The punishment is set and is permanent, the punishing does not go on forever. It is eternal death, not eternal dying.

I have also been given this as proof---

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Everything burns until there is nothing left---it is the smoke that goes on forever--it ascends into the sky and just keeps going

 

[mmksparbud]

It's possible to live without God - millions are doing it now. It's just that after death they will KNOW who he is, that he exists, that he could have forgiven them but they rejected him - and they will exist forever with that knowledge.

Sin is not about what you do. So someone could do loads of good works and still be a sinner; apart from God and having disobeyed and rejected him.

No--life without God is impossible. He is the one that keeps you breathing. It is His breath of life that He gave to Adam and Eve that has been passed down to all living and when that breath goes back to God, you die. It is given back at the resurrection ---the resurrection of the saved unto eternal life---the resurrection of the lost, unto eternal death (not eternal dying)--He takes back that breath when they are burned up in the lake of fire.
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:
Isa 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!
Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.
Mal_4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

 

[Strong in Him]

Lazarus is a parable.

Maybe.
Even if it is; what's the point of it? Why would Jesus tell a parable about life after death, and the rich man wishing to spare his relatives suffering, for no reason and if there is no such thing as life after death?

 

[Strong in Him]

No--life without God is impossible. He is the one that keeps you breathing. It is His breath of life that He gave to Adam and Eve that has been passed down to all living and when that breath goes back to God, you die.

Yes - but the soul doesn't breathe.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

God certainly CAN become material being. I don't see anything wrong with it.
The nature of Heaven and Hell is very clearly described in the Revelation. There are places where are neither Heaven nor Hell.

I'm not talking about the incarnation. I'm talking about God as God. The book of Revelation is full of imagery of God as a material being (apart from the context of the Incarnation); theologically, this is not appropriate, so that must inform how we interpret such images. Since such considerations are a not a serious matter of debate among most interpreters, I wonder why the same principles aren't applied to descriptions of hell that come from the pen of the same author.

 

[Job8]

According to the dictionary those words have different meanings.

Dictionaries do not present Bible truth.

Impossible.

With God all things are possible.

No, it is your fallacious definition.

I could quote chapter and verse and provide exegesis, but you would still not be convinced.

 

[Hieronymus]

Dictionaries do not present Bible truth.

However, they do explain what words mean.

 

[Hieronymus]

I could quote chapter and verse and provide exegesis, but you would still not be convinced.

You mean quote mine for ECT?
Even the fallen angels have become mortal like man.

But it's no use, our minds are quite made up, we'll probably never reach a consensus before i tell you in Heaven: "See, i told you so."

 

[Hillsage]

There is no eternal life without God.

PSA 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
And apparently there is no eternal separation from God there either, as some erroneously believe.

 

[razzelflabben]

I humbly apologize!! I kept reading the word is as if. That is why I thought you were saying hell is eternal life away from God.

typo...sorry but at least now we know the problem

 

[juvenissun]

I'm not talking about the incarnation. I'm talking about God as God. The book of Revelation is full of imagery of God as a material being (apart from the context of the Incarnation); theologically, this is not appropriate, so that must inform how we interpret such images. Since such considerations are a not a serious matter of debate among most interpreters, I wonder why the same principles aren't applied to descriptions of hell that come from the pen of the same author.

The description of God is a different matter than the description of space-time.
I am not sure what do you mean by "God as a material being". But the description of space-time in the Revelation could only be logic and scientific.
The Holy City of the New Jerusalem described IS the Heaven. Other implications, include the Hell, can be derived from this simple fact.
Once the space is set, then we can talk meaningfully about the use of the spaces. The concept of Heaven/Hell and nothing else, is not correct.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't have a solid belief, that's why I ask.

See, there are so many interpretations on what exactly the lake of fire is, but we won't get into that. I do tend to think as you and the OP, that it is fire.

So your idea of torment in hell is... we feel things just as we do now as far as our physical nerves go, and we are thrown into literal fire, just as we know a fire to be now, and forever?

I believe that the Scriptures teach that "hell" or the "place of torment" (which is the holding place for the wicked before the Judgment) is more like a really bad prison and it is not a place whereby the wicked are burned in any actual flames. I also believe the Scriptures teach that the "Lake of Fire" (Which is after the Judgment) is a place whereby the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence, too.

As for hell being a bad prison (and not a torture chamber of flames)
(Which is the holding place for the wicked before the Judgment):

Well, in Luke 16:19-31: What folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any flames. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame." the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of him that made him uncomfortable or tormented. For although I am open to understanding otherwise according to Scripture, I currently do not believe he was in extreme physical pain or torture. For if the Rich-man was engulfed by entire flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would be asking for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. Also, if a person was being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a conversation with you?

But what about people who have been in hell for thousands of years? Will they be in a really bad prison like hell for that long? Well, while I believe that the wicked can be concious or awake at times in hell, I also believe the Scriptures teach that they will sleep (i.e. be unconscious) in hell at other times, too. But whatever the answer may be about the reality of hell, I believe God will be fair and just (no matter what). For we look thru a glass darkly and we know in part. But God is always good; And God is love. God is fair and just in His judgments.​

As for the wicked being annihiated in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment):

Is a real lake of fire that will destroy, burn up, or erase from existence the wicked after the Judgment.

Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). The word "hell" here is translated as "geenna", which is another name for what we call the "Lake of Fire."

For the punishment has eternal consequences where the soul and spirit body are eventually destroyed or put to ruin. For it is everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) --- Not everlasting punishing.

Now, many who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment will quote: Revelation 14:11 at this point. However, when they quote this verse, they are not quoting it in light of the rest of Scripture, though. Okay, so lets take a look at the verse. Revelation 14:11 says,

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." (Revelation 14:11).

What is this smoke of torment that goes up forever and ever? Well, the Bible tells us that it is a metaphorical phrase because Isaiah 34:10 says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet, is Edom (the place) burning today? No. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically. In other words, Isaiah is talking about utter destruction, and annihialation. This is the context of Revelation 14:11. In addition, the words, "they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast..." is a reference to the time of when they are alive. Meaning, they have no rest day or night when they worship the beast (and not after they die or when the smoke of their torment metaphorically rises from their ashes).​

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[razzelflabben]

I humbly apologize!! I kept reading the word is as if. That is why I thought you were saying hell is eternal life away from God.

after rereading this I am still not sure if you get what I am saying....we either believe unto eternal life with God or we do NOT believe and face eternity away from God in hell....maybe your problem is the eternal nature of man? See, one is life and one is death according to scripture but if your problem with what I said is eternal nature of man or consciousness we need to go back to the bible and look at some of the passages about hell as well as the soul/spirit of man that scripture tells us is eternal. Believers receive eternal life, non believers eternal death/separation/hell. Not sure how to make it clearer. And if you need I'll look up passages I have already provided many of them

 

[alexandriaisburning]

I am not sure what do you mean by "God as a material being"

Read Revelation 4. God is pictured "seated" on a "throne". God has an appearance of jasper and carnelian, and is spatially related to other material beings.

 

[razzelflabben]

Well no one I know died and told if Heaven or Hell was
real.
Frankly it's all speculation and I don't want first hand experience
for another decade or two..............or three.......
33,000 denominations of Christians all reading the same book.
Mind boggling ain't it?
Pass a basket of rattlesnakes to prove faith.
"[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] go to Hell" so says the Westboro Baptists.

Isalm: The religion of peace.
A peace of you and me all blown up.

not sure what some of this rant is about but wanted to address the first part about dieing and told if heaven or hell was real.

One person did know and testified, that was Jesus the Christ
Scripture also says that no one else will be allowed to come back and testify

 

[jeager016]

not sure what some of this rant is about but wanted to address the first part about dieing and told if heaven or hell was real.

One person did know and testified, that was Jesus the Christ
Scripture also says that no one else will be allowed to come back and testify

What did Jesus "testify" about Hell?

 

[Hillsage]

Fire can also be symbolic of sanctification and final judgment.

I agree, and I also think that fire isn't just for 'final judgment'. Otherwise, why would we be "baptized with the Holy Spirit and FIRE" here and now?

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames. (1Cor. 3:15)

Context would indicate 'not escaping FROM the flames', but as you say undergoing 'sanctification THROUGH the flames'.
​

My impression has long been that fire indicates judgment. I've always loved this imagery:

Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot sweep it away. If one were to give all the wealth of one's house for love, it would be utterly scorned. (Song of Songs 8:7)​

Grace and peace,
Mark

I think you make a good point. And I find it hard to think that a non corporeal soul is going to be hurt by the literal hell fire of orthodoxy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are two deaths in the Bible (1) physical death and (2) the second death or eternal separation from God. That is NOT eternal life, but eternal suffering and torment. So the wages of sin includes both deaths, and that is precisely why Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. Without His death, we would all end up in eternal Hell.

But you can't call it the Second Death if it is not like the First Death. The First Death involves a destruction of one's physical body. The Second Death will be in the same way. That is why it is called the Second Death. Also, Jesus said He came to give us "Eternal Life." This would not make any sense if the wicked will receive "eternal life", too.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Read Revelation 4. God is pictured "seated" on a "throne". God has an appearance of jasper and carnelian, and is spatially related to other material beings.

"There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." (1 Corinthians 15:44).

"flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;" (1 Corinthians 15:50)

"Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:39).

So obviously the things that are spirit are not exactly solid in every case when they interact with our physical world.

Yes, I am aware of the three visitors involving Abraham. I believe this was the Lord Jesus and two angels and that they did eat actual physical food. But generally, spirits are not always solid because we cannot see them and dark spirits can possess people.

I am also aware that a city in heaven (New Jerusalem) will come down from heaven and land upon the New Earth, too. Whether this city was solid or not (to the real world), it will be solid on the New Earth, for sure.


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