The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Achilles6129]

No thanks.

Been there, done that. Waste of time.

If you would not think of throwing your own child into a fire, why do you think God would?

End of story.

Please re-read the OP. Your reply is a total misrepresentation of the doctrine of hell. Incidentally, as I stated in my OP, many opponents of the doctrine of hell do in fact misrepresent it.

Yep.

It also says that if your right hand offends you to cut it off, and if your right eye offends you to pluck it out.

Did you do that?

If not, why not?

Did you read the entire pericope (Mk. 9:42-50)? Christ is telling us to stop sin at all costs. The final verses, verses 49-50, are a metaphor. It's related to the rest of the passage. So when Christ tells us to "cut off our right hand" it need not be taken literally, but only as an extreme example of how serious sin is.

Also, are you trying to tell us to interpret the entire Bible figuratively because one example you gave is figurative? What exactly is your hermeneutical approach to Scripture?

 

[Achilles6129]

Though we don't get to make up what Hell entails, it has to be biblical, I'm with you on that and assume we are both just undecided. Yes, knowing at least roughly, if not exactly what this supposed eternal punishment entails, would help a lot.
So I ask the OP, Achilles6129 whom I assume is at least somewhat of an expert on the question....how are we punished in Hell, exactly what takes place?

The Bible is pretty specific on what hell entails:

"43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into [ac]hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [[ad]where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into [ae]hell, 46 [[af]where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into [ag]hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." Mk. 9:43-48 (NASB)

"“Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have [n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all [o]mankind.”" Isa. 66:24 (NASB)

"41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;...46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" Mt. 25:41...46 (NASB)

It is a place of fire and torment. Revelation describes it as a "lake of fire" and says that the followers of the beast will be tormented there day and night to the age of the ages. So this is not some sort of "disembodied state" of "separation," this is brutal torture.

 

[Achilles6129]

Probably because the Scriptures say very little that is definitive regarding the subject. Once you strip away parable and apocalyptic imagery, there is not much to provide any grounds for articulating a definitive doctrine. So the, we have to reason our way to an understanding of the nature of "after-life" by other means, such as contemplating the nature of God, etc.

Scripture says alot about the subject. How many times does the word "fire" have to be mentioned before you realize it's not parable or apocalyptic imagery?

 

[Kenny'sID]

Let's just cut to the chase. You are basically saying that is okay for a dictator to keep a person alive (as long as they can live) as they torture them in the most horrible way possible for commitin a finite amount of sin.

What horrible way exactly?

I'll drag the answer I'm looking for out of someone eventually.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What horrible way exactly?

I'll drag the answer I'm looking for out of someone eventually.

Please, let's not be silly. You know we are talking about Eternal Torment and how that is horrible. I shouldn't have to tell you it is horrible for it to be horrible.

Anyways...

First, God never tortured any wicked person here on this Earth in a horrible way like burning them alive for the rest of their life. God's punishments were never overly long and dragged out. God destroys evil. God eradicates evil people. He doesn't let evil win by letting it hang around.

Second, please use a real world example to demonstrate Eternal Conscious Torment and how it is loving, fair, and good.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Scripture says alot about the subject. How many times does the word "fire" have to be mentioned before you realize it's not parable or apocalyptic imagery?

But if you know anything about fire, you would realize that fire is a thing that consumes and or burns up things. I say this because Jesus related the physical world with the spiritual world many times.


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[juvenissun]

The most significant objection would be why this should be considered as formative for a doctrine of hell, when the same book of Revelation describes God in material terms. If the existence of the "lake of fire" is presumed because of its mention in Revelation, should we not also change our doctrinal formulations to consider God as a material being, since such an image is presented in Revelation as well?

God certainly CAN become material being. I don't see anything wrong with it.
The nature of Heaven and Hell is very clearly described in the Revelation. There are places where are neither Heaven nor Hell.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible is pretty specific on what hell entails:

"43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into [ac]hell, into the unquenchable fire, 44 [[ad]where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into [ae]hell, 46 [[af]where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.] 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into [ag]hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." Mk. 9:43-48 (NASB)

"“Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have [n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all [o]mankind.”" Isa. 66:24 (NASB)

"41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;...46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" Mt. 25:41...46 (NASB)

It is a place of fire and torment. Revelation describes it as a "lake of fire" and says that the followers of the beast will be tormented there day and night to the age of the ages. So this is not some sort of "disembodied state" of "separation," this is brutal torture.

Read Isaiah 66:4 again. It says "corpses." Corpses are dead lifeless husks last time I checked.


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[Bible Highlighter]

God certainly CAN become material being. I don't see anything wrong with it.
The nature of Heaven and Hell is very clearly described in the Revelation. There are places where are neither Heaven nor Hell.

But God is spirit.


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[juvenissun]

But God is spirit.


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Occasionally, God can show Himself as anything, even as a human.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Occasionally, God can show Himself as anything, even as a human.

God can cover His essence of spirit with a human body or with a pillar of smoke or fire. But God doesn't actually become physical things whereby His spirit form is changed.


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[Kenny'sID]

Please, let's not be silly. You know we are talking about Eternal Torment.

Of course I know we are talking about eternal torment, why would you even make that point?

Pay attention to the question...what exactly does the eternal torment entail? Or just how is this torment carried out? Details, man, details, and the question goes out to anyone, not just you.

If you have no idea what it is, just say so, but before we get into all this terrible eternal torment as you suggest it is, it might be a good idea to have some idea of if it is all that terrible or not. If you don't know if it's terrible then why would you want to suggest that?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Of course I know we are talking about eternal torment, why would you even make that point?

Pay attention to the question...what exactly does the eternal torment entail? Or just how is this torment carried out? Details, man, details, and the question goes out to anyone, not just you.

If you have no idea what it is, just say so, but before we get into all this terrible eternal torment as you suggest it is, it might be a good idea to have some idea of if it is all that terrible or not. If you don't know if it's terrible then why would you want to suggest that?

I know of no Eternal Torment Proponent suggesting the Lake of Fire is not endless torture in fire for eternity. Are you saying your belief is different?


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[juvenissun]

God can cover His essence of spirit with a human body or with a pillar of smoke or fire. But God doesn't actually become physical things whereby His spirit form is changed.
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[mark kennedy]

In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Discuss.

When Jesus is arguing with the Scribes and Pharisees one and he he calls them 'children of your father the Devil', That is they are born of his seed, actually the exact opposite of being born again, I call it perdition. Jesus once said of Judus, one of you is a devil. Judas was a child of perdition when he was called.

On the other matter. he'll is a place of torment for disembodied spirits. At the resurrection body and spirit are rejoined and the children of perdition are cast into the lake of fire. In fact hell itself is cast into the lake of fire.

Recently I encountered someone who thought the lake of fire annialated those condemned, it seemed reasonable to me.

 

[Job8]

In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible.

I believe the word is "torment". Torture has a totally different connotation. So yes, eternal Hell -- the Lake of Fire -- is also eternal torment. If God has said it, then that should be sufficient.

 

[Job8]

On the other matter. he'll is a place of torment for disembodied spirits.

You are forgetting the resurrection unto damnation. Bodies, souls, and spirits will be reintegrated and cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Job8]

But the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torment.

There are two deaths in the Bible (1) physical death and (2) the second death or eternal separation from God. That is NOT eternal life, but eternal suffering and torment. So the wages of sin includes both deaths, and that is precisely why Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. Without His death, we would all end up in eternal Hell.

 

[Hillsage]

Scripture says alot about the subject. How many times does the word "fire" have to be mentioned before you realize it's not parable or apocalyptic imagery?

Probably as many times as it takes for you to realize it's for you too.

MAR 9:49 For every one will be salted with fire.

Doesn't say 'everyone BUT' in your translation I hope.

Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Gee I sure hope you're not into dunking...talk about the original Christian hot tub.

ACT 2:3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them.

And now we know where the first Christian 'hot heads' came from. IOW I'll vote parabolic.

 

[mark kennedy]

You are forgetting the resurrection unto damnation. Bodies, souls, and spirits will be reintegrated and cast into the Lake of Fire.

That's what I meant about rejoined. I think it's important to remember that Jesus is the only one who really talks about Hell in the Bible, some passing references but nothing like what we get from him. There is a reason for that, he was the only one who knew anything about it. Personally I find the whole subject deeply disturbing but never the less, a very important doctrinal issue.