The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[mark kennedy]

Probably as many times as it takes for you to realize it's for you too.

MAR 9:49 For every one will be salted with fire.

Doesn't say 'everyone BUT' in your translation I hope.

Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Gee I sure hope you're not into dunking...talk about the original Christian hot tub.

ACT 2:3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each one of them.

And now we know where the first Christian 'hot heads' came from. IOW I'll vote parabolic.

Fire can also be symbolic of sanctification and final judgment.

If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved--even though only as one escaping through the flames. (1Cor. 3:15)
​

My impression has long been that fire indicates judgment. I've always loved this imagery:

Many waters cannot quench love; rivers cannot sweep it away. If one were to give all the wealth of one's house for love, it would be utterly scorned. (Song of Songs 8:7)​

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[aiki]

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[aiki]

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)

I don't think the verse you cited indicates an actual parent-child relationship but rather suggests those not of God's kingdom are of a kind with the devil morally to some degree and in their rebellion toward God.

2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)

But in order to actually be a murderer, one must first have committed murder. This is not the case for every person you call a "child of Satan."

4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love

Does God really love everyone with infinite love? Scripture suggests otherwise:

Exodus 20:5-6
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Deuteronomy 7:9-10
9 Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments;
10 and He repays those who hate Him to their face, to destroy them. He will not be slack with him who hates Him; He will repay him to his face.

Deuteronomy 32:39-41
39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
40 For I raise My hand to heaven, And say, "As I live forever,
41 If I whet My glittering sword, And My hand takes hold on judgment, I will render vengeance to My enemies, And repay those who hate Me.

Psalms 5:4-5
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.

And so on.

I hear often this claim that God is omni-benevolent, that He is all-loving. But this is not what Scripture says. There is one thing God hates with a deep and terrible hatred: sin. We see just how deep and just how terrible his hatred is in the awful punishment of eternal torment which He renders upon sin.

Who is the "victim" you speak of in point 4? Of what are they a victim?

5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

This is getting closer to the truth of things, I think.

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

No, I don't agree. I think the fundamental problem is that we don't understand God's holiness as we ought and we don't see our sin as He does. We can recognize the heinousness of a crime by the degree of punishment rendered upon it. Steal a cookie from Grandma's cookie jar and you might get a brief scolding if you're caught. Murder someone and you'll spend perhaps the rest of your life in prison. Sin against the Almighty Creator of the Universe who created you and sustains you moment-by-moment and reject the incredible grace and love He has shown you in the atoning death of His Son on the cross and you'll spend all of eternity in the torment of Hell. If God punishes our sin so terribly, we should understand that He does so because our sin is far, far, far, far worse than we are wont to believe it is.

But we sin-cursed creatures neglect to contemplate and consider God's holiness. For the more we do, the more we see our own deep depravity and unholiness. So, instead, we look to justify our sin, to make ourselves more at ease with our wickedness. And some go so far in this as to suggest that if God judges their sin too harshly (ie. Hell), then He must be monstrous and evil. What a thought! If God doesn't go easy on sin, if He doesn't treat our sin as we sin-steeped creatures think He ought to, then He's the one with the problem! Incredible! What a perfect example of the depth and incorrigibility of human depravity!

Until we understand God's holiness properly and in so doing see our sin for the profoundly perverse, and evil, and vile thing it is, God's eternal, fiery judgment of it will remain to us an inordinate and unjustifiable thing. Our protests and denials of His eternal punishment, however, do not change the reality of it. We may refuse to acknowledge the bus about to run us over, but it will run us over just the same. So, too, with God. We can refuse to believe that He would ever punish our sin with eternal damnation, but that doesn't mean He won't.

Psalms 21:8-9
8 Your hand will find all Your enemies; Your right hand will find those who hate You.
9 You shall make them as a fiery oven in the time of Your anger; The Lord shall swallow them up in His wrath, And the fire shall devour them.

Selah.

 

[DustinLayton]

God came to me in a dream and I asked him what heaven looked like, and I asked him what hell was like.

-- tell me about heaven, please?

I think you'll be surprised when you see it. Your house is all set up with the things you enjoy. People here are waiting for your arrival, even angels who have grown fond of your work for me. You have both angels and people who love you here. They like when you conquer different tasks. I'm even impressed with your willingness. Heaven is like a restaurant that has a perfect air temperature with friends you enjoy, good food you love, and a vibe that is like no other. Heaven is timeless and a memory that never ends. Nostalgic and brilliant at the same time, and you never have to worry about losing it because I am there to give it to you.

-- What about hell?

You say that like heavens description wasn't good enough. But if people knew what hell felt like, they would be more like you. They would be more willing than even Moses and Abraham. Hell is like a restaurant that has no airflow in the summer. The kitchen heat is moving through the building, but the food isn't worth the wait. You sit and spend time with people who boast in their ignorance. These memories too don't expire. Rest assured that the worry of those who spend time there will hate every second. And I will not be there to save them anymore.

 

[Hieronymus]

There are two deaths in the Bible (1) physical death and (2) the second death or eternal separation from God. That is NOT eternal life, but eternal suffering and torment.

That's not death then.
One can not be dead and conscious.
(Although ECT proponents seem to think otherwise somehow...)

 

[Strong in Him]

In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)

First thing to say is that Genesis said that God created us, in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, and declared his creation to be very good, Genesis 1:31. Humans are only alive because God breathed his Spirit, (breath - same word) into us, Genesis 2:2. The Psalmist also says that man has been created a little lower than the angels, Psalm 8:5, and that he are fearfully and wonderfully made, Psalm 139:14.
Unless you believe that God only created a few people, and that Psalm 139 applies only to believers, then God has created everyone. That doesn't mean that all are his children, but all have been made by him - the God who is love. St Augustine said that in everyone is a God shaped hole which he is longing to fill.

So unless someone has met with God and experienced his love, but chosen to reject him and give themselves totally to the devil and never repents, I don't agree that there are any children of Satan.
Yes, we were all godless sinners before God rescued us, but Jesus died for sinners, Romans 5:8.

4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love

God loves all people with an infinite love - a love which always hopes, trusts and perseveres, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7.
He sent his Son to die for sinners, so that we can be reconciled to him, Romans 5:10; 2 Corinthians 5:20, and does not want anyone to perish, 2 Peter 3:9. He taught us to pray for our persecutors and forgive our enemies, and asked God to forgive those who nailed him to the cross - so I don't think it's true that he loves only victims.

6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

Disagree.

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Hell = eternity without God.
If someone continually rejected God while they were alive - knowing who it was they rejected - refused to repent, or call upon God and did not want to know or be with him; God will honour that choice after death. After they die they will meet God, will know for a fact that everything they heard/read about him was true and that they rejected him and died in their sins, and may well be desperate to repent, they won't be able to. They chose a life without God, and that is what they will have, for eternity.
So, and this may only be my view, hell will be knowing that they made the wrong choice, that they could have been forgiven and things could have been different. I believe they will have complete recall of all their sins and times they deliberately rejected God, and their agony will be due to shame and the fact that they can never repent.

I reject any idea of God sitting on a cloud, rubbing his hands together and saying "now you will go to be tortured".

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God.

Murderers have become Christians, been filled with the Spirit and led others to Christ. And as Jesus died for OUR sins, we are all guilty of "the murder of God", (not that God can die.)

I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes

We are all wicked, Romans 3:23, we have all sinned and deserve death, Romans 6:23 and Jesus died for sinners, Romans 5:8. If there had been any perfect people in the world, people who obeyed God completely, trusted in him and never sinned, then Jesus would not have needed to have come and we could achieve perfection/salvation by our own efforts.

Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Sin is falling short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23. That applies to everyone.
As far as we are concerned there are "degrees" or grades of sin - we consider murder to be more serious than shop-lifting. But sin is sin. If we have fallen short of God's standard - perfection - it doesn't matter if we are a long way short, or just a little bit; we can never reach that standard on our own.
So why is murder the "main issue" or more serious than other sins?

 

[Hieronymus]

Hell = eternity without God.

There is no eternal life without God.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Achilles6129. The Doctrine of Eternal Torment, is that we get what we ask for. God is Love and God wants loving sons and daughters, and Jesus told us in Matthew 22: 35-40: The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself.
Verse 40 tells us: "On the two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: "Ask and you shall receive." We ask for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all love and joy with our neighbour. We keep asking and receiving. (neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friend and not friend)
The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way. As long as we love and care, and be kind and helpful, God will approve and Bless us.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again, give up our selfish wishes and wants, and be loving and caring,
God our Heavenly Father will approve and Bless us, selfish behaviour is not for Christians, who love and care.
Galatians 6: 7-8: tells us: " Be not deceived, God will not be mocked: Man will reap what he, or she sows."
We will always get what we ask for, Great Love, or just deserts. I say this with love, Achilles. Greetings from Emmy,
your sister in Christ.

 

[Strong in Him]

There is no eternal life without God.

So an unrepentant sinner faces complete annihilation after death?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I know of no Eternal Torment Proponent suggesting the Lake of Fire is not endless torture in fire for eternity. Are you saying your belief is different? ...

I don't have a solid belief, that's why I ask.

See, there are so many interpretations on what exactly the lake of fire is, but we won't get into that. I do tend to think as you and the OP, that it is fire.

So your idea of torment in hell is... we feel things just as we do now as far as our physical nerves go, and we are thrown into literal fire, just as we know a fire to be now, and forever?

 

[Job8]

One can not be dead and conscious

Yes one can. Death is separation. The second death is eternal separation from God in full consciousness. This is God's definition, not yours.

 

[Job8]

Personally I find the whole subject deeply disturbing but never the less, a very important doctrinal issue.

Precisely. and that is also exactly why we have the Gospel of God's Grace. No one needs to be in Hell.

 

[mmksparbud]

So an unrepentant sinner faces complete annihilation after death?

Yes! They pay for their sins "according to their works"--and die---that is why it's called--death. Not eternal life without God--there is no such thing!! Only the saved are given the gift of eternal life. Where does the bible say that death is eternal life without God? Death is ceasing to exist---period, end of sinner, end of sin.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes! They pay for their sins "according to their works"--and die---that is why it's called--death. Not eternal life without God--there is no such thing!! Only the saved are given the gift of eternal life. Where does the bible say that death is eternal life without God? Death is ceasing to exist---period, end of sinner, end of sin.

This is not all necessarily directed at you, mmksparbudor, I just started adding to what you were saying and ended up where I did.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

"Perish" means perish, cease to exist, or die. There is the first death, then the second death. First we die, most have no problem with that part because we see it all the time, then we are judged and some die again, forever...or everlasting punishment.

See, death and being punished forever can both be defined as everlasting punishment or eternal punishment. Outer darkness? same thing. One might think in order for it to be outer darkness the punished has to be conscious to see the outer darkness, but not necessarily, it could be as simple as "Lights out buddy".

Away from God/out of his presence? once again these definitions could mean either. Someone, I forget who, mentioned something about being concision during the aforementioned...I'd like to see scripture that backs that up.

This is one subject in the bible that tends to be confusing for many, including myself. I personally believe there may be a reason for that, but am not positive. If for no other reason, because it is so confusing to so many. Why would God do that, if he did indeed do it by design? not sure, but again, I'm suspicious.

 

[mmksparbud]

John 3:16

I posted that in post #44--and in several other threads on this subject.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

They still insist, perish doesn't mean perish---I asked for a verse that states death is eternal separation from God and no one gives me one, just repeat eternal separation from God as though that somehow proves it.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes! They pay for their sins "according to their works"--and die---that is why it's called--death. Not eternal life without God--there is no such thing!! Only the saved are given the gift of eternal life. Where does the bible say that death is eternal life without God? Death is ceasing to exist---period, end of sinner, end of sin.

So why did Jesus say things like, "then they will go to eternal punishment and the righteous to eternal life"? Matthew 25:46
And why the story about the rich man and Lazarus? Luke 16:19-31

 

[Strong in Him]

It's possible to live without God - millions are doing it now. It's just that after death they will KNOW who he is, that he exists, that he could have forgiven them but they rejected him - and they will exist forever with that knowledge.

Sin is not about what you do. So someone could do loads of good works and still be a sinner; apart from God and having disobeyed and rejected him.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I posted that in post #44--and in several other threads on this subject.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

They still insist, perish doesn't mean perish---I asked for a verse that states death is eternal separation from God and no one gives me one, just repeat eternal separation from God as though that somehow proves it.

Yep, that's how it works sometimes, one track mindedness, but I guess I'm probably guilty of the same thing at times. Still, it's imperative that we pay attention to pure logic, and not block things out. Blocking is something that should be reserved for it's purpose only, when there is something we absolutely cannot handle. Again...Perish means Perish.

I just finished editing the post you quoted so maybe it will help a little but I'm not really counting on it.

 

[Vicomte13]

However for sake of argument, doesn't the bible say that all sin is the same except the one sin that equals death?

No.

 

[Hieronymus]

So an unrepentant sinner faces complete annihilation after death?

Yes, or at least eventually.