The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Butch5]

In this thread I will suggest that the doctrine of eternal torture in hell is a real doctrine and is actually taught in the Bible. I will also suggest that it is totally just and that those that go away into eternal torture are actually getting what they deserve. I will suggest that opponents of this doctrine (such as universalists and annihilationists) trivialize the evil of those that disobey the commands of God and hence arrive at a picture of reality that is in fact false. Scripture portrays those that disobey God's commands in a heinously evil light; this has been overlooked by opponents of eternal torture.

I suggest the following:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) Children share in the nature of their parents, hence the children of Satan are murderers (by God's standards)
4) God loves the victim with absolute or infinite love
5) The punishment is commensurate with the love that God bears toward the victim
6) The punishment is eternal (infinite, absolute) torture in hell

This is but one way to justify eternal torture; there is another way:

1) Everyone who goes to hell is a child of Satan (Mt. 13:38)
2) Satan is a murderer (by God's standards, see Jn. 8:44)
3) The children of Satan are guilty of the murder of God (Jn. 3:20, ref. with 1 Jn. 3:15)
4) God is a being of infinite goodness or infinite love
5) The murder of a being of infinite goodness or infinite love is a crime so evil and such an abomination that it deserves eternal torture in hell

Thus we see that there are really two ways to totally justify eternal torture: the murder of another human being, or the murder of God. I submit that the wicked are guilty of both of these crimes (as proven by Scripture), and that this is the reason why they go away into eternal torture. Ideas about being punished for vague "sins" and the like are really just distractions and trivializations from the main issue, which is murder.

Discuss.

This is just your opinion. Where do you find teaching in the Scriptures that the wicked will suffer eternal conscious torment?

Have you considered the character of God? According to Scripture that wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. If God declares a punishment isn't that the punishment one would receive? In Scripture we find that God cannot lie. If He said the penalty is death then how could it be something?

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes - but the soul doesn't breathe.

Then it's dead---
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Until God gave him that breath of life, he was simply dust. And unto dust we return. Outside of God, we can not exist.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not of the belief that the soul can only exist if we are physically alive.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held" (Revelation 6:9).

For Scripture says even God has a soul.

Leviticus 26:11
"And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you"

Granted, God's soul is eternal and uncreated (of course).


...

 

[Kenny'sID]

I believe that the Scriptures teach that "hell" or the "place of torment" (which is the holding place for the wicked before the Judgment) is more like a really bad prison and it is not a place whereby the wicked are burned in any actual flames. I also believe the Scriptures teach that the "Lake of Fire" (Which is after the Judgment) is a place whereby the wicked will be destroyed or erased from existence, too.

That's as far as I read, but only because we're pretty much, if not exactly on the same page, and I needed no proof of what you believe. I think during the destroying/erasing, will likely be when everyone gets their punishment according to their deeds. Of course that could happen before that. There are some details we may never know until it happens but the general idea is good enough, as well as bad enough..

 

[mmksparbud]

Maybe.
Even if it is; what's the point of it? Why would Jesus tell a parable about life after death, and the rich man wishing to spare his relatives suffering, for no reason and if there is no such thing as life after death?

What was Jesus talking about that led to the parable??

Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


He was aiming at the Pharisees--covetous. But God knew their hearts. They said it was alright to divorce their wives for burning his food! They had given men many ways to divorce--He took them back to the law, and adultery being the only reason to divorce. The rich man asked for Lazarus to be sent to his brothers to warn them --but the Pharisees had a hardened heart (the rich mans brothers)
---and Abraham said they already knew the truth.
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Nowhere does this say that this torment would continue forever. It was said for the benefit of the Pharisees --covetous and disregarding of the written word of God and making up their own rules, and even if someone was raised from the dead, they would not listen. (raised from the dead, not some breathless spirit sent to them.)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But none of Jesus's parables were stories that could not happen, though. All of Jesus's parables were based on real world examples that could potentially happen or more than likely have happened at some point in human history. So I do not see how the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is fictious or as some kind of allegory to what the Pharisees believed or something. There is no indication in the text that such a thing is so.

However, the text can be interpreted that the Rich-man was not tortured or engulfed in any actual real flames or anything, though.

See this post here:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...-torture-in-hell.7964946/page-7#post-70125408


...

 

[Hillsage]

Maybe.
Even if it is; what's the point of it? Why would Jesus tell a parable about life after death, and the rich man wishing to spare his relatives suffering, for no reason and if there is no such thing as life after death?

And what is the point of the parable? We have two CHOSEN people, both JEWS. One is rich and one is poor those are the only distinguishing points of the parable. Read in context, nothing is said about the reason for judgment other than the rich man lived like an American Christian and the poor man lived like an African one. So it would appear all American Christians are headed for HELL.

 

[mmksparbud]

after rereading this I am still not sure if you get what I am saying....we either believe unto eternal life with God or we do NOT believe and face eternity away from God in hell....maybe your problem is the eternal nature of man? See, one is life and one is death according to scripture but if your problem with what I said is eternal nature of man or consciousness we need to go back to the bible and look at some of the passages about hell as well as the soul/spirit of man that scripture tells us is eternal. Believers receive eternal life, non believers eternal death/separation/hell. Not sure how to make it clearer. And if you need I'll look up passages I have already provided many of them

Oh, then you do mean that hell is eternal life without God----Well, then--I take back my apology!!!
Eternal death is not eternal -- it is death-which is eternal--it is non existence--

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


We are not immortal---we are given immortality as a gift--God alone is immortal.
We require the Tree of Life for that immortality, as did Adam and Eve, which is why they were caste out of Eden
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Der Alte]

Lazarus is a parable.
Jud_1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire'
Are Sodom and Gomorrah still on fire?---

Being an example does not require that Sodom and Gomorrah to still be burning. The word translated "example" is deigma it means "a thing shown, a specimen of any thing, example, pattern."

Mat_3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luk_3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Unquenchable just means it can't be put out till it dies out.

Chaff is the inedible outer husk of grain which is removed and discarded or destroyed. Chaff is not a distinct plant like wheat.

It is everlasting punishment---not everlasting punishing. The punishment is set and is permanent, the punishing does not go on forever. It is eternal death, not eternal dying.

Then eternal life does not mean living forever because the scripture says "eternal life" not "eternal living." You are trying to make a distinction which does not exist in Greek or English.

I have also been given this as proof---
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

If those who are tormented in fire die at some point the smoke is no longer theirs. And when does the scripture change from "no rest day or night" to they will receive rest? The endlessness of the torment is emphasized by "no rest day or night."

Everything burns until there is nothing left---it is the smoke that goes on forever--it ascends into the sky and just keeps going.

Have you ever seen any smoke that goes on forever or does it soon dissipate? Do you think that if God wants something to burn forever He can't make that happen? And fire does not necessarily destroy whatever is in it. See e.g. the burning bush, Exodus 3:2 and Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego, Daniel 3:26.

 

[razzelflabben]

You mean quote mine for ECT?
Even the fallen angels have become mortal like man.

But it's no use, our minds are quite made up, we'll probably never reach a consensus before i tell you in Heaven: "See, i told you so."

except scripture tells us that man has a soul/spirit and that that soul/spirit is eternal...if we discard scripture from our understanding we can come to the conclusion that it is immoral but if we leave scripture define for us what hell is, I see nothing at all immoral about it.

 

[juvenissun]

Read Revelation 4. God is pictured "seated" on a "throne". God has an appearance of jasper and carnelian, and is spatially related to other material beings.

Do you expect to "see" God physically in the Heaven?
I do. Since I can see myself, why not also see God?
Can angels "see" God? Yes. Could Adam "see" God? Yes.
The "material" in the Heaven is different from the material as we know it now.

 

[Der Alte]

What was Jesus talking about that led to the parable??
Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luk 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
He was aiming at the Pharisees--covetous. But God knew their hearts. They said it was alright to divorce their wives for burning his food! They had given men many ways to divorce--He took them back to the law, and adultery being the only reason to divorce. The rich man asked for Lazarus to be sent to his brothers to warn them --but the Pharisees had a hardened heart (the rich mans brothers)
---and Abraham said they already knew the truth.
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Nowhere does this say that this torment would continue forever. It was said for the benefit of the Pharisees --covetous and disregarding of the written word of God and making up their own rules, and even if someone was raised from the dead, they would not listen. (raised from the dead, not some breathless spirit sent to them.)

All of the early church fathers who mention the story of Lazarus and the rich man consider it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul, has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics.
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

 

[mmksparbud]

except scripture tells us that man has a soul/spirit and that that soul/spirit is eternal...if we discard scripture from our understanding we can come to the conclusion that it is immoral but if we leave scripture define for us what hell is, I see nothing at all immoral about it.

Then please state the verse that says we are anything but mortal and must be given immortality. The scriptures say we are mortal---they say we are given the gift of eternal life. They say only God is immortal.

 

[Kenny'sID]

And what is the point of the parable? We have two CHOSEN people, both JEWS. One is rich and one is poor those are the only distinguishing points of the parable. Read in context, nothing is said about the reason for judgment other than the rich man lived like an American Christian and the poor man lived like an African one. So it would appear all American Christians are headed for HELL.

Not sure about the rest of you but I get several points from that parable.

Nothing is said about the reason for judgment other than the rich man lived like an American Christian?

A good portion of the parable is about the reason for judgment.

So because you try to indicate something that is simply not true, in that all American Christian treat people like that, is reason for the sarcastic "all Americans are going to hell"? and substantiates some kind of point you are trying to make?

There is so much wrong in that paragraph, I don't even know where to begin, except to say your conclusion was based on something that was absolutely untrue. Slick.

 

[mmksparbud]

All of the early church fathers who mention the story of Lazarus and the rich man consider it to be factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First [A.D. 145-220.]
9. A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul, has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics.
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence. ​

I don't mean to be rude--but I get my truth from the bible. It says we are mortal and are given immortality. The story of Lazarus itself says what it is about, it is for the Pharisees who had been giving changes to the words of God which God had never said and allowing divorce for other than adultery. It was an example to them of how callous their hearts were for:
"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
They knew exactly what Jesus meant by this parable. This is no more a parable to explain life after death then the parable of the sower is about agriculture.

 

[Kenny'sID]

But none of Jesus's parables were stories that could not happen, though. All of Jesus's parables were based on real world examples that could potentially happen or more than likely have happened at some point in human history. So I do not see how the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man is fictious or as some kind of allegory to what the Pharisees believed or something. There is no indication in the text that such a thing is so.

FWIW, some feel that particular "parable" is not a parable. One reason being, real names are used.

 

[razzelflabben]

Oh, then you do mean that hell is eternal life without God----Well, then--I take back my apology!!!

okay, I think you are getting confused because you keep saying that hell is eternal life without God. The only eternal LIFE that exists is with God. The other is eternal death, which is separation from God and is also known as hell. this seems to be tripping you up. Eternal existance isn't questioned in scripture. In fact, we are told that man has a spirit/soul and that is eternal the flesh of man returns to dust and is temporal. The question is not if you will exist for eternity but if you will exist in the New Jerusalem or hell. Keeping straight eternal life and death might help you immensely.

Eternal death is not eternal -- it is death-which is eternal--it is non existence--

the second death is eternal separations from God...Here is a quick overview...
Revelation 20:14
Revelation 21:8
Revelation 2:11
Revelation 20:6
Jude 1:12

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
1Co_15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co_15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti_6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
2Ti_1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
1Ti_1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

not sure why you posted these they do not disagree with anything I have said but add support to the other passages I presented. Meaning, it seems odd that you would disagree so whole heartedly while supporting my position in scripture.

We are not immortal---we are given immortality as a gift--God alone is immortal.

scripture says otherwise...Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Genesis 2:7 - And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


1 Corinthians 6:19-20
there is a quick bible study for you, you can go deeper if you want

We require the Tree of Life for that immortality, as did Adam and Eve, which is why they were caste out of Eden
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Rev_2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Rev_22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

why is it so hard for you all to accept that God made man with both a temporal body and a spiritual one? It is true that we need Jesus blood for eternal life, but without that blood we have eternal death. either way it's eternal because man is flesh and spirit...it's such a beautiful part of scripture and basic understanding of salvation, maybe you should invest some time in study on the matter. (deeper study of it anyway)

Bottom line, I'm not going to argue about what scripture clearly says. If you want to present something contradictory from scripture I am more than willing to entertain it but since I did a pretty comprehensive study on the "parts" of man according to scripture I'm guessing you will just dismiss the opportunity to prove me wrong.

 

[mmksparbud]

Being an example does not require that Sodom and Gomorrah to still be burning. The word translated "example" is deigma it means "a thing shown, a specimen of any thing, example, pattern."

However----there is no debating the fact that Sodom and Gomorrah actually happened. The example is not that they are still burning, the example is that they were destroyed for being wicked. Which is what will happen to all the wicked.

Chaff is the inedible outer husk of grain which is removed and discarded or destroyed. Chaff is not a distinct plant like wheat.

And?? That is what the wicked represent--chaff--the wheat is the saved. The chaff/sinners will be destroyed in the fire.

Then eternal life does not mean living forever because the scripture says "eternal life" not "eternal living." You are trying to make a distinction which does not exist
in Greek or English.

Life is breathing, is consciousness---eternal life is eternal breathing--eternal consciousness. Death is the absence of breath, of consciousness. You can live forever, you can be dead forever---you can't be both.

If those who are tormented in fire die at some point the smoke is no longer theirs. And when does the scripture change from "no rest day or night" to they will receive rest? The endlessness of the torment is emphasized by "no rest day or night."

The smoke is theirs, dead or alive--it goes into the air--the air just keeps going up. Day or night, they sre burning till nothing is left, as in the chaff--that is why there is a bible with so many verses to study and be taken all together.

Have you ever seen any smoke that goes on forever or does it soon dissipate? Do you think that if God wants something to burn forever He can't make that happen? And fire does not necessarily destroy whatever is in it. See e.g. the burning bush, Exodus 3:2 and Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego, Daniel 3:26.

Right---it just goes up into the atmosphere and until it is gone out of sight. God can do anything He wants. That is why He states what He means and we are given the verses to gather all of them together and see what He does say about a subject and under what circumstances. No, fire does not have to destroy---when God is in it, as in the bush and in the furnace---it does not hurt, it does not even smell of burning, it is not tormenting--because God is there. Without God---it burns, it destroys.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

FWIW, some feel that particular "parable" is not a parable. One reason being, real names are used.

Yes, this would be further evidence that it is not a parable.
But again, even the parables were based on real world examples.
Meaning, Jesus was illustrating spiritual truth by way of real world examples in his parables.
His parables were not based on fiction or unreality.


...

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't have a solid belief, that's why I ask.

See, there are so many interpretations on what exactly the lake of fire is, but we won't get into that. I do tend to think as you and the OP, that it is fire.

So your idea of torment in hell is... we feel things just as we do now as far as our physical nerves go, and we are thrown into literal fire, just as we know a fire to be now, and forever?

ah...something new to talk about...scripture talks about hell being a place of torment, but it doesn't say that we will have the same conscious "feelings" or sensations that we do in the fleshly body.

consider this, in the New Jerusalem there are no more tears or pain, etc. that does not mean that we are no longer conscious but that our new immortal consciousness is without tears and pain. I think it is reasonable to say that scriptural speaking our new immortal consciousness may or may not be of the same nature as our fleshly consciousness. What we do know is that hell is torment, anguish, gnashing of teeth, what we do NOT know if exactly what the torment is. IT could be like the flesh, or emotional, or spiritual, or all three, or something different, or some combination thereof.