The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[jeager016]

http://yoganonymous.com/pope-francis-hell-fire-adam-eve-real/

There isn't a literal hell so sayeth the Pope.

 

[Catherineanne]

Does the Bible you use have these two verses?

Genesis 19:24-25
(24) Then the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD [יהוה/YHWH] out of heaven;
(25) And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.​

Yep.

It also says that if your right hand offends you to cut it off, and if your right eye offends you to pluck it out.

Did you do that?

If not, why not?

 

[razzelflabben]

What an extraordinarily material view of God this presents. Do you understand the role of genre in literature (not to mention interpretation!) at all?

I have a reading validation does that qualify for knowing about genre in literature and common literary rules needed for reading for comprehension? If not we can tackle it with what I do for a living, which is writing...or maybe my teaching background will convince you....ah well, it is easy to throw around accusations but hard to defend your view when you have nothing to base that view on.

 

[razzelflabben]

The answer may not be, but I ask a simple question on what exactly the punishment entails and I get all this from you, then try polity to end it to no avail.

How bout "we're done, Razzel"

And try not to take offense to that, it's really not intended as anything but a way to bluntly get my point across, a point that I've had no luck with up to now.

a point that no matter what you are told you can dismiss what another poster says and claim that that is good, sincere communication? I have repeatedly told you that from the standpoint of scripture it isn't punishment and even showed you why I say that. to which you insist I defend the position that it is punishment. How do you not see the flaw in that and how can you not understand why I had to correct you again before i could answer your question? Seriously, how do you not get that that is dishonest communication on your part? It's cool with me if we are done, I personally like to have a fair exchange of ideas, but how do you NOT understand that it is not communication to demand someone defend a position that they do NOT have in the first place?

 

[razzelflabben]

If you could provide a scripture that says eternal life is given to the lost and the saved it would be of help.
Joh_3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh_10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh_12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh_17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom_5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti_6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
Tit_1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit_3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1Jn_1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
1Jn_3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
1Jn_5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Jud_1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

huh? What are you asking me for heavens' sake? The Lamb's Book of Life is the name given to the record of who hasn't...I am beyond confused as to what you want me to defend here...

 

[mmksparbud]

huh? What are you asking me for heavens' sake? The Lamb's Book of Life is the name given to the record of who hasn't...I am beyond confused as to what you want me to defend here...

we go to eternity with God is not, we go to eternity away from God, aka hell.

What you are saying is both the saved and the lost are given eternal life.
I realize my post #44 is a bit long, but perhaps you should take a few minutes to read it.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

I have a reading validation does that qualify for knowing about genre in literature and common literary rules needed for reading for comprehension? If not we can tackle it with what I do for a living, which is writing...or maybe my teaching background will convince you....ah well, it is easy to throw around accusations but hard to defend your view when you have nothing to base that view on.

Notwithstanding your alleged credentials, the conclusions I reached regarding the inconsistencies in your interpretation are left unchallenged. Since your credentials will certainly not impress me, how about dealing with the actual issues?

 

[razzelflabben]

What you are saying is both the saved and the lost are given eternal life.

hum...when did eternal life become separation from God? I'm confused...

I realize my post #44 is a bit long, but perhaps you should take a few minutes to read it.

I know all those passages and none of them disagree with what I have said. You on the other hand have made false claims about what I said....

 

[razzelflabben]

Notwithstanding your alleged credentials, the conclusions I reached regarding the inconsistencies in your interpretation are left unchallenged. Since your credentials will certainly not impress me, how about dealing with the actual issues?

lol okay then...you can't even respond to me and what I actually said but you have the authority to judge me based on what you don't understand about what I said...that is pretty cool, not sure how that works, but cool.

 

[Der Alte]

Yep.
It also says that if your right hand offends you to cut it off, and if your right eye offends you to pluck it out.
Did you do that?
If not, why not?

And this has what to do with Genesis 19:24-25? Any scripture which doesn't say what you want it to just dismiss it as a figure of speech? What is your method of determining which verses are literal and which are figurative?

 

[jeager016]

And this has what to do with Genesis 19:24-25? Any scripture which doesn't say what you want it to just dismiss it as a figure of speech? What is your method of determining which verses are literal and which are figurative?

Hummmm?
How do YOU determine such?
Curious don'cha'know?

 

[Der Alte]

Hummmm?
How do YOU determine such?
Curious don'cha'know?

"If the plain sense makes good sense then it is nonsense to look for any other sense." For example, we know that Jesus was not literally a door, a piece of bread, a vine etc. so we can logically conclude that those were figures of speech. But for some folks, as I said, their criteria is anything which contradicts or disproves their doctrines they dismiss as figurative.

 

[Basil the Great]

http://yoganonymous.com/pope-francis-hell-fire-adam-eve-real/

There isn't a literal hell so sayeth the Pope.

I believe that is a little incorrect. One of the recent Popes, I think John Paul II, said that the description of Hell as a fiery torment was not to be taken literally. He did not say that Hell itself was not a real place or so I recall.

 

[Basil the Great]

Yep.

It also says that if your right hand offends you to cut it off, and if your right eye offends you to pluck it out.

Did you do that?

If not, why not?

Rumor has it that one of the famous Church Fathers actually cut of his private parts, for fear he would go to Hell. Having said that, I doubt very many other Christian men in the past 2,000 years have taken Jesus' admonition literally.

 

[mmksparbud]

If it is there, we go to eternity with God is not, we go to eternity away from God, aka hell.

I humbly apologize!! I kept reading the word is as if. That is why I thought you were saying hell is eternal life away from God.

 

[jeager016]

Well no one I know died and told if Heaven or Hell was
real.
Frankly it's all speculation and I don't want first hand experience
for another decade or two..............or three.......
33,000 denominations of Christians all reading the same book.
Mind boggling ain't it?
Pass a basket of rattlesnakes to prove faith.
"[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] go to Hell" so says the Westboro Baptists.

Isalm: The religion of peace.
A peace of you and me all blown up.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God's love toward everyone is infinite, but it wouldn't matter. If a crime has been committed, it's been committed.



God's "love" is far different from what you understand to be "love." This can be shown throughout Scripture. You're suggesting that God's love somehow prevents him from punishing the wicked. I don't see how you can arrive at that conclusion.



Actually I don't understand that theologically at all. The Bible clear says there are some who are righteous: Noah, Abraham, Job, David, Paul, Peter, John, etc., are great examples. I don't think it follows at all that "we're all guilty of the murder of Christ." I think that the idea that we're all uncontrollably wicked is very misguided theology.



This is some of the worst theology that I have ever heard. Of course God has to justify what he does! "Divine prerogative" can be an excuse to commit even the worst of crimes. There's a saying that "might doesn't equal right," and I think that it applies here.



Shocking theology.



Not really a logical problem at all. I don't see why there's any "double punishment" for something that's already an infinite (God's love).

If there could be something urged against my ideas in my OP, it would be statements of Christ that there are varying levels of punishment in hell:

"15 Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." Mt. 10:15 (NASB)

Etc. However, my line of reasoning in the OP indicates that all are equally guilty. I would suggest, then, that all are equally guilty of the basic crimes outlined in the OP, and then that they add to those basic crimes (murder of man and murder of God) other crimes, some which merit more punishment than others.

Let's just cut to the chase. You are basically saying that is okay for a dictator to keep a person alive (as long as they can live) as they torture them in the most horrible way possible for commitin a finite amount of sin. That means you would think it is okay for a man to be tortured horribly for the rest of their lives for lying within a dictator's country. But what if this person was your son or someone you believe was loving and good?

Does a person commit sin against God repeatedly for all time? Do people have time machines to commit sin against God for all time?
Does God truly punish a person beyond what the crime calls for? Please explain to me how infinite amount of punishment is fair and just in relation to committing a finite amount of crimes?

Does not Scripture say the following?

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:48).


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In fact, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15. For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;"
(Philemon 1:15 KJV).

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means in relation to the Greek word "Gehenna", i.e. the Lake of Fire (Which is translated in the English as "hell").


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.

• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).

• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).

• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).

• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).

• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).

• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).

• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).

• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).

• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).

• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).

• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).

• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).

• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.

• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15where it is contrasted with “for a while.”


Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php

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[Achilles6129]

I think that a lot of it depends upon the nature of the "torture" itself. If we are talking about extreme physical pain, like what a fire would cause upon someone, then I have a real problem with a loving God doing such to anyone for all eternity. However, if instead we are looking at God sending souls to a dark and lonely place, then I do not have nearly as much a problem with an eternity in Hell, as long as we are talking about souls that truly commit horrendous deeds, like murder or rape or child abuse or spousal abuse.

There is no question that the torture described in the Bible is extreme:

"41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom [w]all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Mt. 13:41 (NASB)

Have you really read my OP carefully? Do you understand the heinous nature of those who disobey the commands of God? Have you really contemplated what the Bible has to say on the subject?

As far as the contention that all sins are the same before God, I believe that such a thesis is very flawed.

If you believe that is my contention then you have misunderstood. Everyone is guilty of one (actually, two) basic crime before God: murder. I contend in my OP that they are guilty of the murder of man and the murder of God, both evil enough to deserve eternal torture. But to that universal crime they add other sins, some of which are greater than others.

Rumor has it that one of the famous Church Fathers actually cut of his private parts, for fear he would go to Hell.

I believe that was a rumor started by his opponents. That was Origen, by the way.

http://christianity.stackexchange.c...nder-a-literal-interpretation-of-matthew-1912