The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Kenny'sID]

another face palm...they are NOT the same and the definitions show that...so no you didn't you showed passages I already pointed out that show God is just but none that show God to be fair or moral. yeah, in fact, one of my kids proclaimed they hated talking to me because I was always right....hahahaha how is that for being a royal pain to talk to

Still, you aren't paying attention.

I'll go a little slower, take it a step at a time, and keep this one short and simple. First, go to any dictionary and see that "just" and "fair" mean the same thing, it's undeniable, honestly. And once you make that connection, you will understand how you could not have possibly proven God it just but not fair...if he is one, he is the other, this is one thing we can call absolute fact.

If that doesn't do it, just let me know, and I'll try something else, I'm in no hurry.

 

[Achilles6129]

Again, this passage does not communicate a familial relationship between the devil and his "children" but merely a similarity in their conduct. The passage itself makes this clear in its focus on works and practices. While God has adopted us as joint-heirs with Christ, the devil has no such arrangement with his "children." God disciplines and cares for His children, working all things together for their ultimate good. The devil has no such concern and makes no such effort toward his "children." It is a mistake, then, I think, to draw the direct parallel you have between children of God and "children" of the devil. The term "children" does not maintain a uniform meaning in both instances.

Then you're basically agreeing with me. The point is that they share in the same nature.

1 John 3:15

is speaking of an attitude of the heart, not the actual act of murder. In God's eyes, one who hates his brother has adopted the mindset or attitude of a murderer and in this way he is comparable to a murderer, but he is not a murderer in the way someone who has actually killed someone is. This seems pretty obvious to me...

No, the passage is saying that they are murderers. That's quite clearly what it says. You can put 1 Jn. 3:15 and Jn. 3:20 together and see that they're guilty of the murder of God.

Was Christ murdered? No, he makes it very clear that he is laying down in his life willingly and that no man can take his life from him in the way one human might do to another when they commit murder.

Christ was absolutely murdered:

"51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you are forever opposing the Holy Spirit, just as your ancestors used to do. 52 Which of the prophets did your ancestors not persecute? They killed those who foretold the coming of the Righteous One, and now you have become his betrayers and murderers." Acts 7:51-52 (NRSV)

Christ can certainly willingly lay down his life and still be murdered.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Everything you are elaborating on is New Testament doctrine. Sheol is the grave, synonymous with death. There is nothing in the Old Testament indicating an afterlife until Daniel. Now the resurrection was known somewhat but final judgment was originated in the teaching of Jesus Christ.

שְׁאוֹל

shĕ'owl

sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

1. the underworld
   
   
2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
   
   
   

   1. place of no return
      
      
   2. without praise of God
      
      
   3. wicked sent there for punishment
      
      
   4. righteous not abandoned to it
      
      
   5. of the place of exile (fig)
      
      
   6. of extreme degradation in sin

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H7585&t=KJV

Jonah cried out from sheol or hell.

"And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice." (Jonah 2:2)​

How can somebody cry out from the dead of the grave? It doesn't make any sense. Jonah died and cried out from hell. He was one of the very few that was given a second chance.


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[Der Alte]

. . .
Everything is caste into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
A new heaven and a new earth---

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Everything is made new--there is no more pain, nor more death, no more tears----there can be no whaling, gnashing of teeth, no torment, no pain,

no fire and brimstone torturing anybody----EVERYTHING is made new. THE FIRT EARTH HAS PASSED AWAY --AND THE LAKE OF FIRE AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT INTO IT. That was all part of the first earth.

Four verses after "no more pain, no more death, no more tears"

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ​

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Anyways, even in Torah (The Books of Moses), there was no basis for unending physical torture -- none. The conscience strokes due to a person were always limited.

"If the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make him lie down and have him flogged in his presence with the number of lashes his crime deserves, but he must not give him more than forty lashes." (Deuteronomy 25:2-3)

Even Jesus taught limited conscience physical sufferings upon the guilty:

"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows." (Luke 12:47-48).


Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: While I do believe the article's teaching that the Lake of Fire is Conditional and not Eternal; I do disagree with their denial of individuals experiencing an intermediate state, i.e. Hades, or Hell).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, Revelation 21:4 says the former things will pass away. There will be no more sorrow, pain, and death. In Revelation 21:5, Jesus essentially says, "He will make all things new." So what former things will pass away? Sorrow, pain, and death will pass away. For Jesus will make all things new. If hell still remains, then Jesus is not making all things new.

In 1 Corinthians 15:26, Paul essentially says that, "the last enemy to be destroyed will be death."
So if there will be no more death, and the last enemy to be destroyed is death then it is logical to conclude that there are previous enemies of God that would have been destroyed, too. Naturally, the devil, his demonic minions, and all of wicked mankind are enemies of God ---- So they will be destroyed, as well. So there is no eternity for the lost because they are enemies of God who will be destroyed just as death will be destroyed.


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[aiki]

Christ can certainly willingly lay down his life and still be murdered.

I suppose on the side of the Jews their attitude and desire may have been one of murder and in this sense they are guilty of it, but at any time Jesus could have halted what they were doing to him. In this very important respect, Jesus was not being murdered in the typical sense. If one human murders another, there is never this total power on the part of the victim to "end all hostilities" at any moment. I think this is an important distinction to make because if we get to thinking humans had some real, actual power over God incarnate, we have moved into heresy and blasphemy. At every point in what the Pharisees and Romans did to Christ they were permitted and enabled by God to do it. So, it is that Christ said, "No man takes my life from me." But this is exactly what defines murder. One person takes the life of another against their will. If those who were responsible for crucifying Christ can be called murderers, it is, then, not in the common sense of the word.

Selah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In addition: Can a person have life without the Son?

Well, 1 John 5:12 says,

"He that has the Son has life; and he that has not the Son of God has not life"
(1 John 5:12).

In other words, a person cannot have "life" (i.e. eternal life) without the Son or Jesus.

Do wicked people live forever (i.e. have eternal life) because Jesus lives within them? Remember, the Scriptures say only Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).

Am I talking about soul/spirit immortality without the body?

No. Jesus alone has immortality physically. Jesus has a physical body. The other members of the Godhead don't have a physical body like Christ (although they dwell within Christ and they are one with Him as a part of the Trinity).

Okay, let me ask that question again.

Do wicked people live forever (i.e. have eternal life) because they have Jesus living within them?

If all people have eternal life, then why does the Scriptures say that life can only be found in the Son?

Surely there is no life outside the Son. Unless you believe everyone has the Son on some level --- Which would be a New Age teaching and not a Biblical one. For those who are into the New Age version of Christianity (Like Christian Science, etc.) believe that all evil people can just tap into the Christ consciousness that is within them (But they simply choose not to tap into it); As if God was some kind of "force" like from Star Wars. You know, like when Luke tells Vader that he can sense the good within him?


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[Bible Highlighter]

We gain "Immortality" (physically) only from the Gospel.

There is a gift we get from believing the gospel; it is called "everlasting life" (John 3:16). Paul calls this gift (immortality) an integral part of the gospel message,

"Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Timothy 1:10).

If all people will live immortal eventually (whether they are good or evil), then why are we encouraged to seek it?

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:" (Romans 2:7).
Why would Jesus offer us an opportunity to "live forever," if we all live forever?

"If any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever." (John 6:51)

The truth is, the abundant life Jesus (Yeshua) promises us is in eternity, it is immortal life, everlasting life.

"I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." (John 10:10)

Believers will live forever. How much more abundant can you get?

In 1 Timothy 6:15-16, Paul says that God alone possesses immortality. And 1 Corinthians 15:53 teaches that the Redeemed will not become immortal until the time of their resurrection.

Source:
Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught -- Why Conditional Immortality Is True and Biblical
(Note: While I agree with this site's view on the Lake of Fire, I do not agree on their view of soul sleep or a denial of the intermediate state (i.e. hell), and their idea that the soul and spirit without the body (in it's dead state) is not ongoing.).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Four verses after "no more pain, no more death, no more tears"

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. ​

It is called the "Second Death" because it is related to the "First Death." The "First Death" is when a person's first physical body dies. Then there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the damned. Death takes places again for those who are of the Resurrection of the Damned.


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[Waterwerx]

It is discouraging to see that there are so many who completely misunderstand this topic.

While we do not have all the answers, Scripture is quite clear that the 2nd death is forever, irreversible, eternal, without end, etc.

Some have reasoned that eternal punishment does not fit the crime. Based on what scale of justice? Our reasoning versus God's infinite knowledge? He knows every thought we've had and ever will have; He knows how every action and reaction we make(including the motives behind them) will have affected others and the actions/decisions they make, and so on.

While by our definition torture is a form of punishment, the punishment God prescribes to the various unsaved individuals will be perfect and unique in magnitude to each person. You can't have imperfect punishment from a perfect God. If God sent individuals to be tormented in Gehenna/Hell and then afterwards allows them into His kingdom after repenting, then that would amount to God torturing them in order to get His way with them. Their repentance would be based on them not wanting to remain in the torment of Hell rather than the sacrifice He made on the cross.

He is also a God of love. He wants everyone to repent and accept Jesus Christ as Savior, change their minds about sin(repent), and be able to dwell with Him forever. However, with that being said, it should also be added that He loves us so much that He would give us the free will to choose and that one's final state in Hell will be determined by weighing how they lived their lives versus how much knowledge of the Gospel they have received. Every individual, both saved and unsaved, will be held accountable: for the saved, it will be a judgment of their works; later on for the unsaved, it will be a judgment of all their sins since they did not accept Christ.

As I said before, we do not have all of the answers in regards to how God is going to, for example, judge those who never heard the Gospel. The thing to keep in mind is that God knows everything that was, is, is to come, and what "could've been" both with and without His intervention for each case.

 

[Vicomte13]

Please support that, I really can't take a "no" as a legit answer or a serious one.

I've forgotten all about this thread. I don't remember the post to which I wrote "No". I didn't see it on the past several pages. Please be kind enough to point me to the post, and I'll see what I was responding to so tersely and give you a response. 23 pages of messages is too long to go look back through to find some flip remark.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is discouraging to see that there are so many who completely misunderstand this topic.

While we do not have all the answers, Scripture is quite clear that the 2nd death is forever, irreversible, eternal, without end, etc.

Some have reasoned that eternal punishment does not fit the crime. Based on what scale of justice? Our reasoning versus God's infinite knowledge? He knows every thought we've had and ever will have; He knows how every action and reaction we make(including the motives behind them) will have affected others and the actions/decisions they make, and so on.

While by our definition torture is a form of punishment, the punishment God prescribes to the various unsaved individuals will be perfect and unique in magnitude to each person. You can't have imperfect punishment from a perfect God. If God sent individuals to be tormented in Gehenna/Hell and then afterwards allows them into His kingdom after repenting, then that would amount to God torturing them in order to get His way with them. Their repentance would be based on them not wanting to remain in the torment of Hell rather than the sacrifice He made on the cross.

He is also a God of love. He wants everyone to repent and accept Jesus Christ as Savior, change their minds about sin(repent), and be able to dwell with Him forever. However, with that being said, it should also be added that He loves us so much that He would give us the free will to choose and that one's final state in Hell will be determined by weighing how they lived their lives versus how much knowledge of the Gospel they have received. Every individual, both saved and unsaved, will be held accountable: for the saved, it will be a judgment of their works; later on for the unsaved, it will be a judgment of all their sins since they did not accept Christ.

As I said before, we do not have all of the answers in regards to how God is going to, for example, judge those who never heard the Gospel. The thing to keep in mind is that God knows everything that was, is, is to come, and what "could've been" both with and without His intervention for each case.

Well, I believe one should be able to explain God's actions (in His Word) with no problem. For Jesus was able to illustrate spiritual truth with physical truth (i.e. real world examples or parables).


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[Vicomte13]

Please support that, I really can't take a "no" as a legit answer or a serious one.

Never mind. Found it.

Alright, so I was answering your question "Doesn't the Bible say..."

My answer was "No." It was a short answer, speaking of the final word in the Bible. If one looks at the whole Bible, one will find that the answer is that Yes, it does say that in some parts, but No, it does not say that in others.

So the question then, given the flat contradictions, is what does the Bible really MEAN? Is the answer yes or is it no.

And the answer to THAT question depends on how you parse out the authorities in the Bible. For me, every word that proceeded forth out of the mouth of Jesus is the most authoritative, because Jesus is Lord, and the Father said to listen to him.

HE clearly distinguished between degrees of sin. He clearly spoke of temporal punishment for sins. And he gave a clear list of sins that will get one thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment - a short list that does not include many other sins.

So no, every sin does not earn hell. Every unforgiven sin earns time in Gehenna - until the last penny is paid.

 

[mmksparbud]

Four verses after "no more pain, no more death, no more tears"
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

That is just reiterating what happens to the wicked. That happened before the world is made new--not after. The New Jerusalem comes down on a newly remade, totally new world. It says the wicked rush to the city as they see it coming down and try to take it and God sends fire to destroy the wicked. The judgement is right after the 100 years, the New Jerusalem is not going to set down on a corrupted, old, worn out, sinful earth cursed from the beginning of it. It is remade and placed on a pristine world.

 

[Der Alte]

Everything you are elaborating on is New Testament doctrine. Sheol is the grave, synonymous with death. There is nothing in the Old Testament indicating an afterlife until Daniel. Now the resurrection was known somewhat but final judgment was originated in the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Job 19:25-27
(25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
(26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.​

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
.....Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word משׁל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional.
.....For example Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chron 7:20, Ps 44:14, and Jer 24:9.
Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezekiel 32:18-22, Ezekiel 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD. ​

 

[Butch5]

That is a term I first encountered on this site. When we refer to the dead as asleep in Christ, that is what we mean, they are dead, not really sleeping. Soul sleep I had not heard before I came on this site. It is an unconscious, dreamless sleep until resurrection because Christ said we will not die meaning we will not die the 2nd death. The 2nd death there is no awakening from. But dead is dead. Noi life. No breath, no consciousness.

I'm familiar with the term. The problem is that it means different things to different people. Ask three people what the doctrine is and you're likely to get three different answers. I don't believe that the doctrine can even be supported by Scripture as it too requires an immortal soul. It is the immortal soul doctrine that is behind all of this. The idea that the dead are somehow alive relies on the doctrine of the immortal soul. The problem with that is that Paul shows us that the Father "alone" has immortality. Paul also says that God gives life to all things. He uses a present tense verb, literally, God is giving life to all things. The immortal soul doctrine contradicts Paul's words and says that man is also immortal.

I agree, the dead are dead. They are not alive somewhere.

 

[aiki]

Also, Revelation 21:4 says the former things will pass away. There will be no more sorrow, pain, and death. In Revelation 21:5, Jesus essentially says, "He will make all things new." So what former things will pass away? Sorrow, pain, and death will pass away. For Jesus will make all things new. If hell still remains, then Jesus is not making all things new.

Revelations 21:4 is speaking specifically of the experience of the saved, God's children, after their death, not that of all people, saved and unsaved.

If you are going to take Christ's words in Revelation 21:5 totally literally, then "all" must necessarily include God Himself. In what way will he be "made new" do you think? If you're going to exclude God from Christ's words, then you aren't taking his words literally and you must then justify why you are reading them that way when it comes to Hell.

So there is no eternity for the lost because they are enemies of God who will be destroyed just as death will be destroyed.

But the word "destroyed" is not always used in Scripture in the sense of "utter eradication or annihilation." Destroyed ("apollumi" in Greek) often means, "ruined" or "total loss of well-being" (ie. of wine skins: Lu. 5:37; of lost sheep: 15:6; of food: Jn. 6:27; of gold: 1Pe. 1:7). It can also mean "abolish," or "overthrow," "to loose" or "dissolve" among a wide variety of other meanings and associations. Insisting that "destroyed" must mean annihilation is convenient for what you're trying to contend, but is not, I think, faithfully handling the word of God. Other places in Scripture give us good reason to think that the enemies of God are not destroyed in the sense that they are annihilated but rather suffer ruin and the loss of well-being.

Selah.

 

[Der Alte]

That is just reiterating what happens to the wicked. That happened before the world is made new--not after. The New Jerusalem comes down on a newly remade, totally new world. It says the wicked rush to the city as they see it coming down and try to take it and God sends fire to destroy the wicked. The judgement is right after the 100 years, the New Jerusalem is not going to set down on a corrupted, old, worn out, sinful earth cursed from the beginning of it. It is remade and placed on a pristine world.

Notice how when scripture does not say what you want it to, you change it to make it say what you want. There is no indication in the text which shows that the events of Rev 20:8 happens before vs. 4. In fact vs. 6 says "it is done."

Revelation 21:4-6
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.​

 

[Butch5]

I hate to disagree with you...but....I Thess. 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Three parts to man..

I wish I had a nickle for every time I've addressed this passage. There aren't three parts to man, there are two. Gen 2:7 shows us this. The body and spirit combine to form the soul. In this passage Paul denotes the whole man. The body and the spirit (spirit of life from God) combine to for the soul. Soul is also used abstractly in the Scriptures for life.

O LORD, do not rebuke me in Your anger, Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure.
2 Have mercy on me, O LORD, for I am weak; O LORD, heal me, for my bones are troubled.
3 My soul also is greatly troubled; But You, O LORD-- how long?
4 Return, O LORD, deliver me! Oh, save me for Your mercies' sake!
5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; In the grave who will give You thanks? (Ps. 6:1-5 NKJ)

Here David speaks of his soul being troubled. Notice his word, "heal me", "my bones are troubled", "my soul is troubled". I think it's pretty clear that he is speaking of his physical being.