The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Bible Highlighter]

Just wondering how you would arrive at what would be comfortable for you as you have no idea what kind of "reward" you have coming for even the "smallest" of sins? That there is pain and suffering I have no doubt. But God alone decides the state of the heart and what your sins require for justice to be met. Seems to me, that someone who plans and willingly commits a sin, is going to end up suffering just as much, and probably a lot more, than someone who just out of a lack of control commits the same sin. Yours is premeditated and God, I believe, takes everything into account when we pay for our sins.
It is the eternal burning crowd that needs to explain:
Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
1Th_2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Everyone, apparently, is going to be sitting around for eternity with nothing better to do than to watch sinners tormented with fire and brimstone. Sounds like a lovely heaven. I have a brother who died a heroin addict, his life here on earth was hell, and we cried having to watch it for 34 years, and now I get to watch him being pelted with brimstone and frying in the flames of hell forever---I can hardly wait. Since it says there will be no more tears, I guess we must assume our hearts will be hardened to all this so we do not cry about it--that's nice to now. But just why bother acquiring a loving heart, compassionate and full of love now only to have it turn to stone in heaven?

I agree with this. Well said. That is why I believe strongly that God will destroy (annihiate) the wicked and all evil, too. God is good and His justice is fair and good, too (Which will permeate even more into our life with God for all eternity). It will be so beautiful.


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[Der Alte]

Well, I am not so convinced of that. For are you saying that when I attacked the "Original Language Only Position" you did not get even a little flustered in our previous conversation? If that was not so, then why did you personally attack me by saying I was deceiving people?

Go back and read my post again I did not say that you were deceiving people. An unsuspecting person can be deceived when another person says something false, although the person speaking sincerely believes it.

For me, personal attacks are done when one's argument cannot stand on it's own. Granted, the situation with Jesus and Paul insulting others is different in their context. Jesus could read minds and hearts and Paul was talking to close brethren (whereby he knew them). But that's okay. We can let it go. I was just concerned about your conscience in the sight of God in doing the right thing. If you say you did nothing wrong or that you could not have been more loving in that situation (with your words), then by all means... continue on.
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I agree ad hominems indicate a faulty argument. That is why I address the topic, the subject, the discussion etc. not the person.

 

[mmksparbud]

so the annihilationist then says that premeditated sin would result in longer suffering in hell than what exactly? what is the hierarchy for sin? That is the question and where do we find that hierarchy in scripture?

Why do you say what the annihilates say? I am answering your statement about wanting to choose what sins would give you the shortest time suffering in hell. Which didn't make sense to me, but I thought I'd give you my opinion about that. I have no idea about hierarchy for sin. Scripture says:
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

As to what the penalty is--that is God's decision alone and He doesn't give you any clues. He judges the heart.

Not sure what about this you want addressed...it was already addressed by me but you don't give a question that you want answered by these passages. What would your question be that you post these passages.

It seemed pretty obvious to me. It says sinners will be tormented with brimstone and fire "in the presence of God and the holy angels" and the saved will be in the presence of God and the holy angels, which means, sinners are being tormented for eternity in front of God, saints, and angels---Apparently that is not a problem for you. Personally, I see no joy in watching people writhe in agony for eternity while munching on a piece of fruit from the tree of life---it is in our presence--so do we ever get away from that sight? Doesn't seem so--for eternity--weeping, whaling, fire, brimstone, torment, gnashing of teeth---forever---Pass the popcorn. No matter what we do, the tormented sinners will be in front of us.
This is your idea of heaven? And you say this is also what God wants. Like I said, there will be no tears in haven, so Does God harden our hearts so we can tolerate this and enjoy the sight? We've spent our entire lives being told to be loving, kind, compassionate, tenderhearted only to go to heaven and have our hearts hardened into stone??
Not off topic---part of what hell is according to what you guys are saying the scriptures literally mean.

 

[razzelflabben]

Why do you say what the annihilates say? I am answering your statement about wanting to choose what sins would give you the shortest time suffering in hell. Which didn't make sense to me, but I thought I'd give you my opinion about that. I have no idea about hierarchy for sin. Scripture says:
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

As to what the penalty is--that is God's decision alone and He doesn't give you any clues. He judges the heart.

I was asking the question of the annihilists on these boards....oh never mind...no one is listening to anyone which is making this whole discussion boring.

It seemed pretty obvious to me. It says sinners will be tormented with brimstone and fire "in the presence of God and the holy angels" and the saved will be in the presence of God and the holy angels, which means, sinners are being tormented for eternity in front of God, saints, and angels---Apparently that is not a problem for you.

please show me where in that passage it says that the angels and God watch day and not...also show me where in that passage it says that the saints are watching the suffering....see, there is a difference as I pointed out before between seeing that the task was carried out and standing around watching for eternity. the passages posted simply do not say that they stand around and watch for eternity, it simply isn't there. In order to reconcile the two ideas that are being drawn from the text we go to the totality of scripture where we see in Rev. that the saints will have jobs and some other stuff going on. So the consistency of the passage then supports that they will see or testify to the deed, then move on.

Personally, I see no joy in watching people writhe in agony for eternity while munching on a piece of fruit from the tree of life---it is in our presence--so do we ever get away from that sight? Doesn't seem so--for eternity--weeping, whaling, fire, brimstone, torment, gnashing of teeth---forever---Pass the popcorn. No matter what we do, the tormented sinners will be in front of us.

see, this is exactly why this discussion has become boring to the fifth degree. I say one thing and you just repeat your opinion as if I never said a thing instead of responding to what I said. we have heard your opinion enough times to know what you think, what we don't know is how you reconcile your opinion with the totality of scripture cause that is something you refuse to talk about.

This is your idea of heaven? And you say this is also what God wants. Like I said, there will be no tears in haven, so Does God harden our hearts so we can tolerate this and enjoy the sight? We've spent our entire lives being told to be loving, kind, compassionate, tenderhearted only to go to heaven and have our hearts hardened into stone??
Not off topic---part of what hell is according to what you guys are saying the scriptures literally mean.

My idea of heaven is straight out of scripture, in fact, it is all we have to go on. Which includes the new heaven and new earth and the New Jerusalem...have you heard of them? or are you one who only believes that heaven is us sitting on clouds playing harps all day long?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Go back and read my post again I did not say that you were deceiving people. An unsuspecting person can be deceived when another person says something false, although the person speaking sincerely believes it.

I agree ad hominems indicate a faulty argument. That is why I address the topic, the subject, the discussion etc. not the person.

Unless you were talking to somebody else, saying that I was deceiving others is a personal attack. Just ask a moderator. It was an ad hominem. But that's okay. I am all about forgiving others quickly because it is what Jesus wants us to do. So let's move on.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Why do you say what the annihilates say? I am answering your statement about wanting to choose what sins would give you the shortest time suffering in hell. Which didn't make sense to me, but I thought I'd give you my opinion about that. I have no idea about hierarchy for sin. Scripture says:
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

As to what the penalty is--that is God's decision alone and He doesn't give you any clues. He judges the heart.



It seemed pretty obvious to me. It says sinners will be tormented with brimstone and fire "in the presence of God and the holy angels" and the saved will be in the presence of God and the holy angels, which means, sinners are being tormented for eternity in front of God, saints, and angels---Apparently that is not a problem for you. Personally, I see no joy in watching people writhe in agony for eternity while munching on a piece of fruit from the tree of life---it is in our presence--so do we ever get away from that sight? Doesn't seem so--for eternity--weeping, whaling, fire, brimstone, torment, gnashing of teeth---forever---Pass the popcorn. No matter what we do, the tormented sinners will be in front of us.
This is your idea of heaven? And you say this is also what God wants. Like I said, there will be no tears in haven, so Does God harden our hearts so we can tolerate this and enjoy the sight? We've spent our entire lives being told to be loving, kind, compassionate, tenderhearted only to go to heaven and have our hearts hardened into stone??
Not off topic---part of what hell is according to what you guys are saying the scriptures literally mean.

Are you addressing my post or another person's post?


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[Der Alte]

. . . It seemed pretty obvious to me. It says sinners will be tormented with brimstone and fire "in the presence of God and the holy angels" and the saved will be in the presence of God and the holy angels, which means, sinners are being tormented for eternity in front of God, saints, and angels---Apparently that is not a problem for you. Personally, I see no joy in watching people writhe in agony for eternity while munching on a piece of fruit from the tree of life---it is in our presence--so do we ever get away from that sight? Doesn't seem so--for eternity--weeping, whaling, fire, brimstone, torment, gnashing of teeth---forever---Pass the popcorn. No matter what we do, the tormented sinners will be in front of us.
This is your idea of heaven? And you say this is also what God wants. Like I said, there will be no tears in haven, so Does God harden our hearts so we can tolerate this and enjoy the sight? We've spent our entire lives being told to be loving, kind, compassionate, tenderhearted only to go to heaven and have our hearts hardened into stone??
Not off topic---part of what hell is according to what you guys are saying the scriptures literally mean.

There is no scripture which says the saved are in the presence of God and the Holy Angels. Even the scripture you are alluding to does not say that it says "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

Revelation 14:10-11
(10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

 

[Der Alte]

Unless you were talking to somebody else, saying that I was deceiving others is a personal attack. Just ask a moderator. It was an ad hominem. But that's okay. I am all about forgiving others quickly because it is what Jesus wants us to do. So let's move on.
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I don't have to ask a moderator. I was one for over 5 years. Here is what I said. It does not address you personally but "errors in your posts,"
"that will not deter me from exposing the errors in your posts so that others are not deceived."
http://www.christianforums.com/thre...torture-in-hell.7964946/page-18#post-70133985post #342 above.

 

[mmksparbud]

I was asking the question of the annihilists on these boards....oh never mind...no one is listening to anyone which is making this whole discussion boring. please show me where in that passage it says that the angels and God watch day and not...also show me where in that passage it says that the saints are watching the suffering....see, there is a difference as I pointed out before between seeing that the task was carried out and standing around watching for eternity. the passages posted simply do not say that they stand around and watch for eternity, it simply isn't there. In order to reconcile the two ideas that are being drawn from the text we go to the totality of scripture where we see in Rev. that the saints will have jobs and some other stuff going on. So the consistency of the passage then supports that they will see or testify to the deed, then move on. see, this is exactly why this discussion has become boring to the fifth degree. I say one thing and you just repeat your opinion as if I never said a thing instead of responding to what I said. we have heard your opinion enough times to know what you think, what we don't know is how you reconcile your opinion with the totality of scripture cause that is something you refuse to talk about. My idea of heaven is straight out of scripture, in fact, it is all we have to go on. Which includes the new heaven and new earth and the New Jerusalem...have you heard of them? or are you one who only believes that heaven is us sitting on clouds playing harps all day long?

It says it is done in the presence of God, and the angels, I quoted that passage, It also says the saved are in the presence of God. The tormenting is going on for eternity in our presence. That is what it says. Yes, it says we will do other things, but that does not detract from the fact it says the tormenting will be done in the presence of God, angels and the saved. It never finishes, there is no end to it according to you, it is never "carried out" so it goes on forever in front of the saved. You can not toss that aside. I say heaven, but it is the New earth after the 1000 years. The sentence of the wicked is not carried out until after the 1000 years.

You see--there is this:

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Everything is caste into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
A new heaven and a new earth---
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Everything is made new--there is no more pain, nor more death, no more tears----there can be no whaling, gnashing of teeth, no torment, no pain, no fire and brimstone torturing anybody----EVERYTHING is made new. THE FIRT EARTH HAS PASSED AWAY --AND THE LAKE OF FIRE AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT INTO IT. That was all part of the first earth.

 

[mmksparbud]

There is no scripture which says the saved are in the presence of God and the Holy Angels. Even the scripture you are alluding to does not say that it says "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb."

1Th 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

It is what we are living for--to be once again in the presence of our God, as Adam and Eve were. And the angels are definitely in the presence of God. So yes, the torment will happen in front of the saved, God and the angels.

 

[razzelflabben]

It says it is done in the presence of God, and the angels, I quoted that passage, It also says the saved are in the presence of God. The tormenting is going on for eternity in our presence. That is what it says. Yes, it says we will do other things, but that does not detract from the fact it says the tormenting will be done in the presence of God, angels and the saved. It never finishes, there is no end to it according to you, it is never "carried out" so it goes on forever in front of the saved. You can not toss that aside. I say heaven, but it is the New earth after the 1000 years. The sentence of the wicked is not carried out until after the 1000 years.

as I said, your reading into the text what is not there and since you refuse to address my post, I guess we are done.

You see--there is this:

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Everything is caste into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
A new heaven and a new earth---
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Everything is made new--there is no more pain, nor more death, no more tears----there can be no whaling, gnashing of teeth, no torment, no pain, no fire and brimstone torturing anybody----EVERYTHING is made new. THE FIRT EARTH HAS PASSED AWAY --AND THE LAKE OF FIRE AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT INTO IT. That was all part of the first earth.

so, you apparently think God is a liar and I think He is truth...that is the core difference between the opinion you keep spouting without responding to challenges to that opinion...Personally I find that sad, but you have a right to your opinion...have a great day, one day I hope you will see fit to actually discuss the topic with us rather than just repeating your opinions.

 

[mmksparbud]

Are you addressing my post or another person's post?


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Sorry, I have a habit of forgetting to quote the post I am referring to--that was to razzelflabben.

 

[mmksparbud]

as I said, your reading into the text what is not there and since you refuse to address my post, I guess we are done. so, you apparently think God is a liar and I think He is truth...that is the core difference between the opinion you keep spouting without responding to challenges to that opinion...Personally I find that sad, but you have a right to your opinion...have a great day, one day I hope you will see fit to actually discuss the topic with us rather than just repeating your opinions.

No, I never even implied God is a liar, He can not lie. If He says the sky is green, the sky would immediately turn green. If he says your yellow with purple polka dots---that is what would happen. What we are discussing is a matter of interpreting the language of the writers. I am quoting scriptures. It is something you can't seem to grasp. Like the fact the whole earth is remade---and the old is done away with--that leaves no room for anyone tormenting in a burning hell anywhere forever. But that means you'd have to let go a long held believe, and you wouldn't like to do that. So, you too---have a nice day.

 

[razzelflabben]

No, I never even implied God is a liar, He can not lie. If He says the sky is green, the sky would immediately turn green. If he says your yellow with purple polka dots---that is what would happen. What we are discussing is a matter of interpreting the language of the writers. I am quoting scriptures. It is something you can't seem to grasp. Like the fact the whole earth is remade---and the old is done away with--that leaves no room for anyone tormenting in a burning hell anywhere forever. But that means you'd have to let go a long held believe, and you wouldn't like to do that. So, you too---have a nice day.

but you refuse to accept that all of the scripture is truth...see, that is the problem you refuse to address. If God is not a liar, then all of the scripture not just the passages we can tolerate and are comfortable are true. If all are true then there has to be an answer that reconciles both sides of the issue. Every single time I bring this up, you go back to just repeating your opinion and ignoring the passage that disagree with you. that is exactly like saying that you think God is a liar. See, interpretation possibilities is what I have presented to you and you ignore....

I will ignore the personal attacks since they are violation of forum rules. As the the rest, what passage tells us that hell is remade or destroyed? Unless of course you think hell is this heaven and earth? Which I challenge you to present in scripture....

oh and one more thing as I have repeatedly said and you repeatedly ignore, my beliefs on hell are neither long standing beliefs not mainstream, but rather they are based on a careful study of the totality of scripture as as I have said, one reason I entered this discussion was to have that understanding challenges to see if it stands up to the challenge. If it does, it is evidence I am right if not I am wrong. But since God cannot lie, all the scriptures have to line up with what I understand or it is lie. You present no challenge, in fact, none here have challenged my understanding all you all do is make false accusations and repeat your own opinions....

 

[mmksparbud]

But that is just it---it is all the scriptures, and when all are taken together and researched--it comes up with no eternal burning hell. You just want to keep the ones that imply eternal.

But since God cannot lie, all the scriptures have to line up with what I understand or it is lie.

That is the problem, isn't it?
Still--the earth is made new, the old will all pass away, and there will be no pain, no tears, nor fire and brimstone tormenting anyone for ever. I really have no idea why the thought of that is so disturbing to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't have to ask a moderator. I was one for over 5 years. Here is what I said. It does not address you personally but "errors in your posts,"
"that will not deter me from exposing the errors in your posts so that others are not deceived."
post #342 above.

So you were a moderator here at CF? How recent ago? Was it in compliance with their current rules?
Anyways, still sounds like a personal attack to me (no matter which way you slice it).
But like I said, let's move on and focus on those things which are good and honorable.

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[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry, I have a habit of forgetting to quote the post I am referring to--that was to razzelflabben.

Copy that; And it's totally okay.

May God bless you this fine day.


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[Bible Highlighter]

It says it is done in the presence of God, and the angels, I quoted that passage, It also says the saved are in the presence of God. The tormenting is going on for eternity in our presence. That is what it says. Yes, it says we will do other things, but that does not detract from the fact it says the tormenting will be done in the presence of God, angels and the saved. It never finishes, there is no end to it according to you, it is never "carried out" so it goes on forever in front of the saved. You can not toss that aside. I say heaven, but it is the New earth after the 1000 years. The sentence of the wicked is not carried out until after the 1000 years.

You see--there is this:

Rev_19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev_20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Everything is caste into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
A new heaven and a new earth---
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Everything is made new--there is no more pain, nor more death, no more tears----there can be no whaling, gnashing of teeth, no torment, no pain, no fire and brimstone torturing anybody----EVERYTHING is made new. THE FIRT EARTH HAS PASSED AWAY --AND THE LAKE OF FIRE AND EVERYTHING THAT WENT INTO IT. That was all part of the first earth.

Yes. Well said. You are correct; The saved will also be looking at the wicked that have been destroyed (or whereby they are empty carcases). For Isaiah says they will look at the remains of the wicked (as I am sure you are aware of).

"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh." (Isaiah 66:24).​

For carcases is not a word that is in reference generally to the living the last time I checked.


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[Achilles6129]

So a couple of things I would like to bring up:

In your argument you presume to know what punishment God intends to use on the unsaved. But the answer isn't an easy one.
No matter what side of the argument someone stands on they cannot deny verses like

Matthew 10:15 "Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town."

or

Matthew 26:24

"The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

Just from these two verses we see there are varying degrees of punishment.n

Yes - further down I address the varying degrees of punishment idea. My OP certainly does make room for varying degrees of punishment. Their other sins are simply added on to the core crime of which they're already guilty.

The conditionalist perspective will say that for instance Revelation 20:10 "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
" that the forever and ever doesn't by necessity mean forever as the greek words Aionas ton Aionas which can be translated ages of the ages which might be a very long long time but not by necessity forever.

Here's the passage:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/rev/20/1/ss1/s_1187001

"And the devil G1228 who deceived G4105 them was thrown G906 into the lake G3041 of fire G4442 and [fn]brimstone, G2303 where G3699 the beast G2342 and the false G5578 prophet G5578 are also; G2532 and they will be tormented G928 day G2250 and night G3571 forever G165 and ever. G165 " Rev. 20:10 (NASB)

Notice the word used for "forever and ever" is #165. Here's a breakdown of the usage of that word in Greek:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G165&t=NASB

You can clearly see if you follow the usage of that word in the New Testament that it does indeed mean forever. For example, the word means as long as God is alive:

"Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever G165 and ever. G165" Rev. 15:7 (NASB)

...and so forth.

Here's a quote from Vine's on the word:

"The phrases containing this word should not be rendered literally, but consistently with its sense of indefinite duration. Thus eis ton aiona does not mean "unto the age" but "for ever" (see, e.g., Hbr 5:6). The Greeks contrasted that which came to an end with that which was expressed by this phrase, which shows that they conceived of it as expressing interminable duration."

But this verse does not specifically mention humans.... it mentions the beast, false prophet and the devil.

This is something that I address further down in the thread as well. Wicked humans share in the fate of the beast, false prophet, and Satan:

"41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;" Mt. 25:41 (NRSV)

 

[mark kennedy]

I am not in disagreement that the Old Testament does not clearly teach about believers going to Heaven at some point. They taught that men went to Sheol (or the realm of the dead).

However, even in the New Testament at this current moment, believers still go to Abraham's bosom or Paradise (Which is in Sheol or the realm of the dead). Well, that is until the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place. Then the believer who dies in the Lord will go directly to heaven. For the dead in Christ will rise first (out of Abraham's bosom) and then they which remain and are alive will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

"As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water" (Zechariah 9:11).

As for the immortality of the soul: Well, the soul goes with the spirit even after the physical body dies. The spirit eventually returns to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Obviously the spirit returns to God so as to be at least judged in some way. But Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). So the soul is something that needs to be destroyed by the Lord. It is only the body that needs to have eternal life whereby we will spend all eternity with God on the New Earth. Eternal LIFE. Not eternal death or eternal spiritual life alone. Eternal LIFE. Living with God for all time. That's where it is at. A physical Kingdom that will have no end where God's people will have eternal LIFE (in the fact that they have physically resurected bodies). That is why the resurrection of Christ is sooo important.

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Everything you are elaborating on is New Testament doctrine. Sheol is the grave, synonymous with death. There is nothing in the Old Testament indicating an afterlife until Daniel. Now the resurrection was known somewhat but final judgment was originated in the teaching of Jesus Christ.