The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Butch5 · Sep 11, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Yes, there are many things Christians infer from the Bible.
Sola Scriptura is inferred from a set of passages in the Bible, but there is no one verse or set of verses or passages that says Scripture and Scripture alone is our authority. Oh, and yes. I have made a Biblical defense for Sola Scriptura here. But again, many of these verses are inferred. It doesn't mean Sola Scriptura is not true because a collection of verses infer such a truth.

Actually it's not but that's another thread. The fact that something is inferred from Scripture means that it's not stated in Scripture. As such it is one's opinion and subject to be wrong. Gen 2:7 plainly states what a man consists of. There is only the body and God's spirit of life which together become a living soul. When a man dies God's spirit of life returns to Him. That means that the man's soul no longer exists. The body goes back to dust. That's it there is nothing left to live on. It doesn't matter how one tries to interpret the passages there is simply nothing left to live on. The soul must have God's spirit of life in order to live. Once God's spirit of life returns to Him there is nothing to live on.

Yes, we can. But this verse is not alone, though. It is a collection of verses and passages (of which I mentioned that state that man will be conscious after he dies). The verses are clear to understand. What is your real motivation in not wanting to believe these verses? I know my motivation in wanting to defend those verses on the Conditional View of the Lake of Fire is to defend God's goodness or justice. I just do not see that as being necessary with trying to push "soul sleep", though. There is nothing unjust about hell. It is not a torture chamber of flames. It is more like a really bad prison.

The truth of Scripture is my motivation. I don't care for the doctrines of men. I've been there and done that. I don't promote "soul sleep." Sleep is used as a metaphor for death in the Scriptures. The soul isn't sleeping it's dead.

Please do not say God's Word is poorly translated. I believe God's Word is perfect and it was preserved today based on what Scripture says. Thank you.

I don't mean any disrespect, but just because you believe something doesn't mean it's so. The way the passage is translated allows for the misunderstanding that is so common.

Why would God inspire men to write His Word, just to have it later garbled and confused by men later on?
It doesn't make sense if you ask me.
That would mean we cannot trust God's Word.
How do you know which words are true or not?
Do you have a "Bible Word is True Detector"?

We can look at the original languages and history to see how the early Christians understood the language. There are over 5000 Greek manuscripts or parts of manuscripts and no two read exactly alike. Scholars compare the manuscripts That's how we get critical text translations.

Yea, hath God said?
A person will know which Word of God is true, based on the fruit of that text.

The text you are reading has been chosen by the translator.

If I said I will be absent at school, and present with my good friend instead (most people will not think I am talking about being absent from school to be sleeping at my friends house all week while he is playing video games). Being present with someone means you are sharing your time with them. For if I did sleep at my friends house all week while he wanted me to hang with him while we do fun things, then he could very well say that I was not even present with him (Because I was asleep - paying him no heed or thought to him).

You're using the English words absent and present. Paul didn't. That's my point. The passage is poorly translated.

Paul gives us no indication of a time gap in Corinthians. He says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

No mention of any time gap of soul sleep here. Paul says to be absent from the body means to be present with the Lord.

He gives no time element period. It's just as right to assume a gap as it is to assume no gap. However, I didn't assume the gap. From Paul's words to the Corinthians early on we know that he believed that if the dead believers weren't resurrected then they had perished. He didn't say anything about them being conscious somewhere. According to what he said they were dead and either they would be resurrected or the had perished. We know from Scripture that the resurrection doesn't happen when one dies, but rather when Jesus returns. That means that the dead won't be resurrected until Jesus returns. That means that the dead are dead.

No. Paul is saying that if Jesus did not die on the cross and rise from the dead, then there is no promise to save us. God knowing He can resurrect us at a future date (based on his death and resurrection) is a down payment of giving us life even after the body dies. However, today, when true believers die, they go to Abraham's Bosom. After that, when the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place, believers who die will then go directly to Heaven.

No. Paul is talking about a what if scenario. That what if scenario would be, if Christ was not raised, then there would be no promise of salvation for us (either in the intermediate state or after the Judgment). The what if scenario of Christ not being risen is everyone perishing or being destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

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Some of the Corinthians were denying the Resurrection. That is why Paul wrote the passage. The Greeks, which the Corinthians were, were coming out of Platonic philosophy. The Greeks believed that the goal of salvation was to escape the prison of the body and ascend into the heavens, what many Christians today believe. However, Paul was arguing against that idea saying that if those who died in Christ do not rise in the body then they had perished. They weren't going to ascend into the heavens as the Greeks taught.

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Der Alte · Sep 11, 2016

Butch5 said:
. . .
The text you are reading has been chosen by the translator.
You're using the English words absent and present. Paul didn't. That's my point. The passage is poorly translated.

2 Corinthians 5:8-9 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent [εκδημεω] from the body, and to be present [ενδημεω] with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present [ενδημεω] or absent [εκδημεω], we may be accepted of him.
G1736 ἐνδημέω endēmeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to be among one’s own people, dwell in one’s own country, stay at home
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a compound of G1722 and G1218
Citing in TDNT: 2:63, 149
G1553 ἐκδημέω ekdēmeō
Thayer Definition:
1) to go abroad
2) emigrate, depart
3) to be or live abroad
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a compound of G1537 and G1218
Citing in TDNT: 2:63, 149

mark kennedy · Sep 11, 2016

mmksparbud said:
What God has, has nothing to do with what we have. We are not God, we are only created in the image of God. Are you suggesting that God breathed His soul into Adam and Eve? Is the soul then transferable? Can I transfer my soul into you? What then becomes of my soul if I do? What became of God if He breathed His soul into Adam and Eve?? Did He breathe His soul into every angel and whatever other being He created, whatever other animals besides the ones we have on this earth? How many souls does God have? So far, it only says one. It doesn't say He has countless souls in His being. The breathe of life that He gave to Adam and Eve He gave to every living thing on this earth. Are they therefore immortal souls also? He breathed that life into the first bug ever created, is it alive in heaven also?? Is every living thing that God created then still alive in heaven or hell? Do animals go to hell? If not, all of them are in heaven, every fly, mosquito, everything that has the breath of life in it for all of life came from God and when they die that breath goes back to God. It says it goes back to God. Doesn't say it goes to heaven or hell, but to God. It is His power of life and it goes back to Him, and whoever had it, is nothing but dust, and will remain so unless He gives that breath back to them. If we are disembodied spirits conscious in heaven, then so are the animals--they too need to be resurrected and join their spirit to their body??

Soul in the Hebrew is not often or even usually the non-material spirit. Strong's H5315 (נֶפֶשׁ nephesh), is used of living creatures that draw breath.

Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath H5315 life (Gen. 1:20)
And God created great whales, and every living creature H5315 that moveth, (Gen. 1:21)
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature H5315 (Gen. 1:24)
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, H5315 (Gen. 1:30)

The fifth time the term is used is used of Adam being created:

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

1Sa 25:29 Yet a man is risen to pursue thee, and to seek thy soul: but the soul of my lord shall be bound in the bundle of life with the LORD thy God; and the souls of thine enemies, them shall he sling out, as out of the middle of a sling.
Job_27:8 For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?

Takes away their lives.

The first death is a sleep that God will awaken us from, the 2nd death--there is no waking up from that--it is permanent unconsciousness. The little girl and Lazarus had not gone to heaven---why bring them back? There they are, gloriously happy in heaven, and they get hauled back to earth---what for, to make the people around them happy? They would have been horrified to have to come back to this miserable world after being in the presence of God and His angels and all the beauty of heaven--I'd be ticked off. Not to mention, neither said one single solitary word about having been in heaven. There were many who were resurrected when Christ died
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

They came out of their graves---doesn't say their souls were sent from heaven. God resurrected them. So they too, were hauled out of heaven and sent back here? They had been sleeping it says. Doesn't say they were in heaven. How long had they been sleeping? Supposedly we go immediately to heaven. Lazarus had been sleeping for 4 days.

Somehow you managed to mention one of the things in Scripture I have always found rather puzzling. I can only assume they were recently deceased. This just appears to be a manifestation of the resurrection power of God, most commentators will tell you that they probably were only raised temporarily and would go on to die a natural death sometime later.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mmksparbud · Sep 12, 2016

mark kennedy said:
The Old Testament word for soul just like the New Testament word mean breath. When Adam became a living soul it was because he started breathing.

Exactly--God gave him that breath of life, otherwise, he would have remained a pile of dust, and without it, he returns to that pile of dust.

mmksparbud · Sep 12, 2016

Butch5 said:
The truth of Scripture is my motivation. I don't care for the doctrines of men. I've been there and done that. I don't promote "soul sleep." Sleep is used as a metaphor for death in the Scriptures. The soul isn't sleeping it's dead.

That is a term I first encountered on this site. When we refer to the dead as asleep in Christ, that is what we mean, they are dead, not really sleeping. Soul sleep I had not heard before I came on this site. It is an unconscious, dreamless sleep until resurrection because Christ said we will not die meaning we will not die the 2nd death. The 2nd death there is no awakening from. But dead is dead. Noi life. No breath, no consciousness.

vinsight4u · Sep 12, 2016

razzelflabben · Sep 12, 2016

Bluesh1ft said:
So a couple of things I would like to bring up:

In your argument you presume to know what punishment God intends to use on the unsaved. But the answer isn't an easy one.
No matter what side of the argument someone stands on they cannot deny verses like

Matthew 10:15 "Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town."

or

Matthew 26:24

"The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”

Just from these two verses we see there are varying degrees of punishment.

Is the punishment varied by heat of the flame? Or the depth of Darkness? Or perhaps... just perhaps a difference in duration.
What I do know is that Hell will be rightly administered by God.

The main argument of hell is in the text not in any philosophical or logical measurements. We can't comprehend the depths of our sin and the appropriate level of punishment. What we can do, however, is look at the text of the Bible.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So here we have Death in contrast to eternal life. One would have to make an argument why Death does not mean death and that also Eternal life doesnt simply mean eternal life.... but a good eternal life. Because if there was eternal concious torment, there would still be a person "concious" or alive to receive the punishment.

And that is what has me worried about the "traditional" view on hell. You have many passages that emphasize death as punishment. And one could argue that conditionalists or "annihilationists" Have to do the same thing.

The conditionalist perspective will say that for instance Revelation 20:10 "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
" that the forever and ever doesn't by necessity mean forever as the greek words Aionas ton Aionas which can be translated ages of the ages which might be a very long long time but not by necessity forever.

But this verse does not specifically mention humans.... it mentions the beast, false prophet and the devil.

When looking at the text issues of both sides, I find the anihilationist Biblical text arguments for there not being endless concious torment more compelling. I don't think its reasonable to argument based on feelings or that you don't think its right either view of hell because its not in Gods nature.. I will say again whatever hell is... it will be a perfect punishment by a perfect God.

Two comments, other than that I find this one of the most unbiased posts so far.

1. scripture talks about a "second death" that second death does not appear from the text to be like the first in which our flesh "returns to dust". Thus inferring (not saying you specifically did, just clarifying something I didn't feel was clear in your post) that death means to turn to ash or whatever else we might want to inflate into the idea of annihilation would be a false assumption according to scripture. I personally have no problem saying that we can't know for sure, in fact, I have already said that, but some here are trying to take this approach and it is a false approach when it comes to what scripture does tell us, that which we can know.

2. you bring up the false prophets and the devil...As I previously pointed out, false prophets are human people. To take the whole annihilation approach removes these passages from the bible. To take a partial annihilation approach, I would be interested in knowing what sins will yield me the shortest time in hell according to scripture? Just a question for what it's worth. that way I could commit only the sins that would yield the amount of time I was comfortable serving and then, poof, I'm done, not suffering for the sake of Christ and no denying my sin nature, it's just done. Can any of the annihilationists on here help me with this one?

Again, I found this post very fair of the topic, I just wanted to add a couple of things to it, I am not in any way disagreeing with what you said unless you consider the false prophet comment a disagreement, which I don't.

TalwinStark · Sep 12, 2016

Vicomte13 said:
No.

Please support that, I really can't take a "no" as a legit answer or a serious one.

razzelflabben · Sep 12, 2016

Butch5 said:
Actually it's not but that's another thread. The fact that something is inferred from Scripture means that it's not stated in Scripture. As such it is one's opinion and subject to be wrong. Gen 2:7 plainly states what a man consists of. There is only the body and God's spirit of life which together become a living soul. When a man dies God's spirit of life returns to Him. That means that the man's soul no longer exists. The body goes back to dust. That's it there is nothing left to live on. It doesn't matter how one tries to interpret the passages there is simply nothing left to live on. The soul must have God's spirit of life in order to live. Once God's spirit of life returns to Him there is nothing to live on.

I hate to disagree with you...but....I Thess. 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Three parts to man..

Bible Highlighter · Sep 12, 2016

mark kennedy said:
The Old Testament word for soul just like the New Testament word mean breath. When Adam became a living soul it was because he started breathing.

Adam was being created for the first time. The fact the word "LIVING" is used before the word "soul" helps us to understand what kind of soul he is. Genesis 2:7 doesn't say his soul does not continue on. In fact, we know souls can continue on without the body because Revelation 6:9-10 tells us that John sees those souls who were slain for the Word of God under God's altar crying out for justice (as a part of the 5th seal). We also see in the Psalms (which is then requoted in Acts) that God will not leave a particular person's soul in hell. Also, the Scriptures say God has a soul. Granted, God's soul is eternal and uncreated. But man was created in God's image.

People are confused on this point, because they don't actually know how the Bible defines the words:

1. Soul (The core of who you are. Your ultimate mind, will, personality, and emotions).
2. Spirit (spirit body that also has a mind that is influenced by the spirit world).
3. Body (physical body that also has a mind that is influenced by the natural world)

Paul says we are to keep three things blameless until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If our soul ceased to exist after death, then the core of who we are would be gone and mindless form of energy would be returning to God.
For the Scriptures say that the spirit returns to God.
We are made in God's image. So if God is three in one. Then we must be three in one, as well. If death destroyed the image of God or His triune nature (Then it does not speak well of how designed His creation).

...

...

Bible Highlighter · Sep 12, 2016

Der Alter said:
Things have never been heated for me here. I simply state what is written in scripture.

Well, I am not so convinced of that. For are you saying that when I attacked the "Original Language Only Position" you did not get even a little flustered in our previous conversation? If that was not so, then why did you personally attack me by saying I was deceiving people? For me, personal attacks are done when one's argument cannot stand on it's own. Granted, the situation with Jesus and Paul insulting others is different in their context. Jesus could read minds and hearts and Paul was talking to close brethren (whereby he knew them). But that's okay. We can let it go. I was just concerned about your conscience in the sight of God in doing the right thing. If you say you did nothing wrong or that you could not have been more loving in that situation (with your words), then by all means... continue on.

...

vinsight4u · Sep 12, 2016

mmksparbud · Sep 12, 2016

razzelflabben said:
I would be interested in knowing what sins will yield me the shortest time in hell according to scripture? Just a question for what it's worth. that way I could commit only the sins that would yield the amount of time I was comfortable serving and then, poof, I'm done, not suffering for the sake of Christ and no denying my sin nature, it's just done. Can any of the annihilationists on here help me with this one?

Just wondering how you would arrive at what would be comfortable for you as you have no idea what kind of "reward" you have coming for even the "smallest" of sins? That there is pain and suffering I have no doubt. But God alone decides the state of the heart and what your sins require for justice to be met. Seems to me, that someone who plans and willingly commits a sin, is going to end up suffering just as much, and probably a lot more, than someone who just out of a lack of control commits the same sin. Yours is premeditated and God, I believe, takes everything into account when we pay for our sins.
It is the eternal burning crowd that needs to explain:
Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
1Th_2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Everyone, apparently, is going to be sitting around for eternity with nothing better to do than to watch sinners tormented with fire and brimstone. Sounds like a lovely heaven. I have a brother who died a heroin addict, his life here on earth was hell, and we cried having to watch it for 34 years, and now I get to watch him being pelted with brimstone and frying in the flames of hell forever---I can hardly wait. Since it says there will be no more tears, I guess we must assume our hearts will be hardened to all this so we do not cry about it--that's nice to now. But just why bother acquiring a loving heart, compassionate and full of love now only to have it turn to stone in heaven?

mark kennedy · Sep 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Adam was being created for the first time. The fact the word "LIVING" is used before the word "soul" helps us to understand what kind of soul he is. Genesis 2:7 doesn't say his soul does not continue on. In fact, we know souls can continue on without the body because Revelation 6:9-10 tells us that John sees those souls who were slain for the Word of God under God's altar crying out for justice (as a part of the 5th seal). We also see in the Psalms (which is then requoted in Acts) that God will not leave a particular person's soul in hell. Also, the Scriptures say God has a soul. Granted, God's soul is eternal and uncreated. But man was created in God's image.

People are confused on this point, because they don't actually know how the Bible defines the words:

1. Soul (The core of who you are. Your ultimate mind, will, personality, and emotions).
2. Spirit (spirit body that also has a mind that is influenced by the spirit world).
3. Body (physical body that also has a mind that is influenced by the natural world)

Paul says we are to keep three things blameless until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
If our soul ceased to exist after death, then the core of who we are would be gone and mindless form of energy would be returning to God.
For the Scriptures say that the spirit returns to God.
We are made in God's image. So if God is three in one. Then we must be three in one, as well. If death destroyed the image of God or His triune nature (Then it does not speak well of how designed His creation).

...

...

You kind of lost me here, the Scriptures are a progressive revelation. The concept of dieing and going to heaven was introduced in the New Testament. Sheol was simply the grave and as far as anyone knew the end. The immortality of the soul isn't seen much in the Old Testament, the word for soul in the Old Testament simply means life's breath. Four Times in Genesis one it's used of animals.

When Peter quotes the Psalm that says God will not allow his holy one to see corruption he quotes it as fulfilled prophecy of the resurrection. Peter indicates David died and was buried in the valley of the kings, Jesus rose. This is the point where the resurrection as an event establishes the resurrection as a covenant promise.

Jesus brought unheard of things, revelations that no one had heard before. The resurrection wasn't unheard of but dieing and going to heaven or Hell was something new.

mmksparbud · Sep 12, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Adam was being created for the first time. The fact the word "LIVING" is used before the word "soul" helps us to understand what kind of soul he is.

As opposed to a dead one? HMMMM---a living soul, and a dead soul---non existent, to existing. But the soul goes back to God when we die. Not to heaven or hell, to God, from whence it came. And unless He gives it up again, you don't exist.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 12, 2016

Butch5 said:
I'm not misinterpreting the passage. I explained that soul is used abstractly of life. However, when it is used concretely it is used of a living being that has a body.

24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so. (Gen. 1:24 NKJ)

19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. (Gen. 2:19 NKJ)

In each of these passages the word "creature" is translate from the word Nephesh which means soul. So, the animals are also living souls.

As I said in the other post one must come to the text already believing that man can live apart from the body because that idea is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

Even the souls of animals will continue to live on after they die.
In fact, they eagerly await the manifestation (resurrection) of the sons of God.

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God." (Romans 8:19).

...

mark kennedy · Sep 12, 2016

mmksparbud said:
As opposed to a dead one? HMMMM---a living soul, and a dead soul---non existent, to existing. But the soul goes back to God when we die. Not to heaven or hell, to God, from whence it came. And unless He gives it up again, you don't exist.

The expression is more like life's breath. We are comfortable with the idea of the immortality of the soul but you be hard time finding it in the Old Testament and soul in the Old Testament simply means life's breath.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 12, 2016

mark kennedy said:
You kind of lost me here, the Scriptures are a progressive revelation. The concept of dieing and going to heaven was introduced in the New Testament. Sheol was simply the grave and as far as anyone knew the end. The immortality of the soul isn't seen much in the Old Testament, the word for soul in the Old Testament simply means life's breath. Four Times in Genesis one it's used of animals.

When Peter quotes the Psalm that says God will not allow his holy one to see corruption he quotes it as fulfilled prophecy of the resurrection. Peter indicates David died and was buried in the valley of the kings, Jesus rose. This is the point where the resurrection as an event establishes the resurrection as a covenant promise.

Jesus brought unheard of things, revelations that no one had heard before. The resurrection wasn't unheard of but dieing and going to heaven or Hell was something new.

I am not in disagreement that the Old Testament does not clearly teach about believers going to Heaven at some point. They taught that men went to Sheol (or the realm of the dead).

However, even in the New Testament at this current moment, believers still go to Abraham's bosom or Paradise (Which is in Sheol or the realm of the dead). Well, that is until the Pre-Trib Rapture takes place. Then the believer who dies in the Lord will go directly to heaven. For the dead in Christ will rise first (out of Abraham's bosom) and then they which remain and are alive will be caught up together to meet the Lord in the air.

"As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water" (Zechariah 9:11).

As for the immortality of the soul: Well, the soul goes with the spirit even after the physical body dies. The spirit eventually returns to God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Obviously the spirit returns to God so as to be at least judged in some way. But Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28). So the soul is something that needs to be destroyed by the Lord. It is only the body that needs to have eternal life whereby we will spend all eternity with God on the New Earth. Eternal LIFE. Not eternal death or eternal spiritual life alone. Eternal LIFE. Living with God for all time. That's where it is at. A physical Kingdom that will have no end where God's people will have eternal LIFE (in the fact that they have physically resurected bodies). That is why the resurrection of Christ is sooo important.

...

razzelflabben · Sep 12, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Just wondering how you would arrive at what would be comfortable for you as you have no idea what kind of "reward" you have coming for even the "smallest" of sins? That there is pain and suffering I have no doubt. But God alone decides the state of the heart and what your sins require for justice to be met. Seems to me, that someone who plans and willingly commits a sin, is going to end up suffering just as much, and probably a lot more, than someone who just out of a lack of control commits the same sin. Yours is premeditated and God, I believe, takes everything into account when we pay for our sins.

so the annihilationist then says that premeditated sin would result in longer suffering in hell than what exactly? what is the hierarchy for sin? That is the question and where do we find that hierarchy in scripture?

It is the eternal burning crowd that needs to explain:
Rev_14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
1Th_2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

Not sure what about this you want addressed...it was already addressed by me but you don't give a question that you want answered by these passages. What would your question be that you post these passages.

Everyone, apparently, is going to be sitting around for eternity with nothing better to do than to watch sinners tormented with fire and brimstone. Sounds like a lovely heaven. I have a brother who died a heroin addict, his life here on earth was hell, and we cried having to watch it for 34 years, and now I get to watch him being pelted with brimstone and frying in the flames of hell forever---I can hardly wait. Since it says there will be no more tears, I guess we must assume our hearts will be hardened to all this so we do not cry about it--that's nice to now. But just why bother acquiring a loving heart, compassionate and full of love now only to have it turn to stone in heaven?

huh? I don't have time to post passages at this moment, getting ready to pick up our son...however, scripture says that "heaven" is in the presence of God, not in the presence of hell. Likewise, if you get into Rev. there are jobs and such for us to do in heaven....iow's this all seems off topic based on what we do know from Rev. about what heaven will be like to live there.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 12, 2016

mmksparbud said:
As opposed to a dead one? HMMMM---a living soul, and a dead soul---non existent, to existing. But the soul goes back to God when we die. Not to heaven or hell, to God, from whence it came. And unless He gives it up again, you don't exist.

Yes, there are souls of the dead. This shown to us in Scripture. Revelation 6:9-10.

John said he had seen these souls after they had already died.

9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
(Revelation 6:9-10).

I mean, they are like talking and stuff (after they are already dead). Sounds to me like they are souls who are aware of whats going on here (and yet it said they were slain, i.e. they are dead).

Furthermore, Acts 2:27 says that God will not leave Jesus's soul in hell (you know, because he was like three days and three night in the HEART of the EARTH). What was He doing done there? Well, He said He would be with the thief on the cross in Paradise (Luke 23:43). Plus, Peter says Jesus preached to the spirits in prison down there, too (1 Peter 3:19-20).

...

The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Natura non facit saltum

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I will run the race, with all my heart

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Natura non facit saltum

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Natura non facit saltum

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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