The difficulty of talking to Atheist

[quatona]

Silly claims? You live on a ball of hot rock sandwiched between a thin crust and poison space, out on the fringe of the Milky Way, in the middle of nowhere.

Yes, so do you. What to it?

 

[Colter]

Thank you, sorry I got confused. But, why is that strange? It is all humanity has ever known, it's like saying, "Don't you think it's weird that we have to breathe air?"

My point is that life really is stranger than fiction. Our world has been the host of many ages of diverse thinking and beliefs. The age of scientific enlightenment is very young. The world view of people that lived 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago or 5000 years ago are all different. We don't have a monopoly on reality or the truth of origins and possibilities. 1000 years from now they will look back and smile at what we think and do today.

What we call normal are just our current norms.

 

[Colter]

That portion of scripture doesn't say that Jesus is going to do it. It just says that he's gonna be conceived of a virgin. But it says The Lord which is referring to God the father here, is going to do that to these lands. Verse 14 and verse 17 is what signifies that when it says The Lord it's talking about God. "Therefore The Lord himself shall give you a sign" Jesus is gonna send a sign of himself?

I believe Jesus was/is who he said he was, The Son of God. But the attempts to force Jesus into certain OT writings has caused problems. Loudmouth is correct, Jesus did not smash up things and frankly it wasn't until 70 AD that the days of Gentile vengeance fell apron the Jews. If anything the Jews lost their protector. Even John the Baptist warned of a "wrath to come". None came, just a loving Son who revealed a God that was very different than the OT God concepts.

Also, noted Christian scholars have conceded that "Alma" doesn't mean virgin. Pagan converts to the Christian movement brought the idea of Virgin birth and the December 25 date into the evolving Christian theology.

The problem with eccentric prophet types is that some of what they said did come to pass while other things were just wrong.

 

[Loudmouth]

That portion of scripture doesn't say that Jesus is going to do it. It just says that he's gonna be conceived of a virgin. But it says The Lord which is referring to God the father here, is going to do that to these lands. Verse 14 and verse 17 is what signifies that when it says The Lord it's talking about God. "Therefore The Lord himself shall give you a sign" Jesus is gonna send a sign of himself?

Nowhere does the Old Testament say that God will take human form, and Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy. It is made plain in Jeremiah as well.

Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."

Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."

None of that happened in Jesus' day.

 

[poolerboy0077]

Isn't that what's been said all along? Don't atheists keep asking for "Objective evidence"?

No one can "see" ultra violet waves. No one can "see" gravity. That doesn't mean atheists don't accept these things as real. Asking for objective evidence isn't the same as saying atheist are about as silly as denying the existence of things merely because we can't see them. THAT is the caricature I'm referring to. Utter nonsense.

 

[Chany]

Colter, define "motive".

If we are talking about the morality an agent (whether the agent is good or bad), then intention matters.

If we are talking about the morality of an action (eithrt the actual action being performed or the totality of the moral act itself including agent, act, and consequence), then intention is irrelevant.

 

[dac2015]

I believe Jesus was/is who he said he was, The Son of God. But the attempts to force Jesus into certain OT writings has caused problems. Loudmouth is correct, Jesus did not smash up things and frankly it wasn't until 70 AD that the days of Gentile vengeance fell apron the Jews. If anything the Jews lost their protector. Even John the Baptist warned of a "wrath to come". None came, just a loving Son who revealed a God that was very different than the OT God concepts. Also, noted Christian scholars have conceded that "Alma" doesn't mean virgin. Pagan converts to the Christian movement brought the idea of Virgin birth and the December 25 date into the evolving Christian theology. The problem with eccentric prophet types is that some of what they said did come to pass while other things were just wrong.

Exactly which prophecies are wrong? Some of them haven't came to pass yet? That's pretty simple.

 

[dac2015]

Nowhere does the Old Testament say that God will take human form, and Jesus did not fulfill the prophecy. It is made plain in Jeremiah as well. Jeremiah 23:5-6; "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Jeremiah 33:14-16: "IN THOSE DAYS AND AT THAT TIME, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land. IN THOSE DAYS shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness." None of that happened in Jesus' day.

It doesn't say that he's going to appear in man form when those things are destroyed?

 

[Eudaimonist]

nm

 

[Colter]

Exactly which prophecies are wrong? Some of them haven't came to pass yet? That's pretty simple.

The Jews have had 2000 years to review the record, you can ask them why Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah. Their expectations were derived from their scripture, Jesus didn't do what the expected Messiah was supposed to do. The problem wasn't the Son of God, the problem was the evolution of the concept of a material, political Messiah who would be a priest/prophet/king figure that would take up David's seat, destroy Israel's enemies and rule the earth. Early Jewish converts to the Jesus movement expected his eminent return to do all those things, but he didn't. There was no 2000 year gap in the prophetic expectations of the Jews, they did NOT expect The Son of God, they did NOT expect a spiritual kingdom preached to all the earth, the did NOT expect to take part in some Pagan human sacrifice of the person of the Messiah.

Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus | The difference between Judaism and Christianity

 

[Colter]

In the same way that a cell phone seeks a signal, the human mind was designed to respond to the spirits of God. Our thinking is actually stimulated by these incoming signals.

The Adjutants of Worship and Wisdom​

"Nature worship may seem to have arisen naturally and spontaneously in the minds of primitive men and women, and so it did; but there was operating all this time in these same primitive minds the sixth adjutant spirit, which had been bestowed upon these peoples as a directing influence of this phase of human evolution. And this spirit was constantly stimulating the worship urge of the human species, no matter how primitive its first manifestations might be. The spirit of worship gave definite origin to the human impulse to worship, notwithstanding that animal fear motivated the expression of worshipfulness, and that its early practice became centered upon objects of nature.

You must remember that feeling, not thinking, was the guiding and controlling influence in all evolutionary development. To the primitive mind there is little difference between fearing, shunning, honoring, and worshiping.

When the worship urge is admonished and directed by wisdom — meditative and experiential thinking — it then begins to develop into the phenomenon of real religion. When the seventh adjutant spirit, the spirit of wisdom, achieves effective ministration, then in worship man begins to turn away from nature and natural objects to the God of nature and to the eternal Creator of all things natural." UB1955

 

[dac2015]

The Jews have had 2000 years to review the record, you can ask them why Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah. Their expectations were derived from their scripture, Jesus didn't do what the expected Messiah was supposed to do. The problem wasn't the Son of God, the problem was the evolution of the concept of a material, political Messiah who would be a priest/prophet/king figure that would take up David's seat, destroy Israel's enemies and rule the earth. Early Jewish converts to the Jesus movement expected his eminent return to do all those things, but he didn't. There was no 2000 year gap in the prophetic expectations of the Jews, they did NOT expect The Son of God, they did NOT expect a spiritual kingdom preached to all the earth, the did NOT expect to take part in some Pagan human sacrifice of the person of the Messiah. Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus | The difference between Judaism and Christianity

Exactly I agree with that. But it still lines up with the Bible.

 

[bhsmte]

In the same way that a cell phone seeks a signal, the human mind was designed to respond to the spirits of God. Our thinking is actually stimulated by these incoming signals.

The Adjutants of Worship and Wisdom​

"Nature worship may seem to have arisen naturally and spontaneously in the minds of primitive men and women, and so it did; but there was operating all this time in these same primitive minds the sixth adjutant spirit, which had been bestowed upon these peoples as a directing influence of this phase of human evolution. And this spirit was constantly stimulating the worship urge of the human species, no matter how primitive its first manifestations might be. The spirit of worship gave definite origin to the human impulse to worship, notwithstanding that animal fear motivated the expression of worshipfulness, and that its early practice became centered upon objects of nature.

You must remember that feeling, not thinking, was the guiding and controlling influence in all evolutionary development. To the primitive mind there is little difference between fearing, shunning, honoring, and worshiping.

When the worship urge is admonished and directed by wisdom — meditative and experiential thinking — it then begins to develop into the phenomenon of real religion. When the seventh adjutant spirit, the spirit of wisdom, achieves effective ministration, then in worship man begins to turn away from nature and natural objects to the God of nature and to the eternal Creator of all things natural." UB1955

Cool story.

 

[BL2KTN]

That portion of scripture doesn't say that Jesus is going to do it. It just says that he's gonna be conceived of a virgin.

Actually, Matthew butchered the Hebrew in that prophecy. The word is "almah" and it means "young woman", not a young woman who hasn't had sexual intercourse. But don't worry, the author of Matthew screwed up a ton of Hebrew and obviously didn't speak it... even to the point of laughably having Jesus ride into Jerusalem on two animals at the same time (he didn't know "and" from "even").

Exactly which prophecies are wrong? Some of them haven't came to pass yet? That's pretty simple.

Tyre was never utterly destroyed.

Egypt Will Be Desolate for Forty Years and Egyptians Dispersed - Never happened.

King of Syria will not harm Judah - The King of Syria did harm Judah: 2 Chronicles 28
Egypt will speak Canaanite - Canaanite is a dead language and Egypt never spoke it.

Yahweh will drive out the Jebusites - Whoops, Yahweh didn't drive out the Jebusites: Joshua 15:63

Yahweh will send every enemy away from Israel in terror - How many defeats are recorded in the bible alone?

But doesn't Jesus match up with many prophecies?

For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel. -- Jeremiah 33:17

Yet that is most certainly untrue... unless Jesus is descended from David. And is he?

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." ' If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son? -- Matthew 22:41-45

Jesus doesn't seem to think the Christ can be descended from David.

But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. -- Micah 5:2

This is the supposed prophecy about Jesus being born in the city Bethlehem... except this refers to the clan of Bethlehem Ephrathah... and the leader that is going to come from this clan has a specific purpose according to Micah 5:6:

So He will rescue us from Assyria
when it invades our land,
when it marches against our territory.

None of the that matches Jesus.

(Taken from my debate with Pshun2404: http://www.christianforums.com/t7822814/)

 

[BL2KTN]

Eventuated beings are full grown intelligent Sons of relative divinity. I don't know if they remember the moment just after their creation or not or if they slowly become conscious. They train for their assigned task. Lucifer had already been serving for a long time before the fall.

So Lucifer is an atheist, yet he was created in adult-form by a spirit mommy and daddy... so if he ever just knew who his parents were, he couldn't be an atheist anymore. Wow, somebody shoot him an email and let him know Colter can explain everything. Seems like he's been tricked with this whole "let's pretend he's an orphan" thing. Not sure what kind of sicko I AM would hide his parents from him so he'd become an atheist, but whatev's.

 

[Colter]

So Lucifer is an atheist, yet he was created in adult-form by a spirit mommy and daddy... so if he ever just knew who his parents were, he couldn't be an atheist anymore. Wow, somebody shoot him an email and let him know Colter can explain everything. Seems like he's been tricked with this whole "let's pretend he's an orphan" thing. Not sure what kind of sicko I AM would hide his parents from him so he'd become an atheist, but whatev's.

You must not understand what I'm saying, let me try again.

The realm that Lucifer was born into is just as real as the realm that we are born into. We know our parents, Lucifer knew his parents. In the same way that the incarnate Son lead us to faith in his unseen Father, The Son of God on high lead his son Lucifer to trust in the unseen paradise Father.

* We know our earth parents in our realm, the unseen Father is a matter of faith to us.

* Lucifer knew his parents in his realm, the unseen Father was a matter of faith to him.

A tragic and unthinkable thing happened to our world. As a brilliant, high, relatively divine being, who had been delegated administrative power and authority over our world (and many other inhabited worlds) this Son of God Lucifer fell into grave doubting about the existence of this unseen Father. He lead this world into rebellion, confusion, darkness and sin against the ultimate rule of the unseen Father through delegated powers of his creator Sons and their Sons.

The Lucifer rebellion was terminated while the incarnate Son was on earth. Lucifer is no more. Our world is in a process of rehabilitation.

 

[Colter]

This is the same thing that happens to people who fall away from faith, they invest so much of their ego's into the cause of the doctrines of doubt that their pride wont let them turn back. In their delusional ,near paranoid state they perceive believers as the enemy.

"It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Lucifer rebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer’s mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the Constellation Fathers, in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain." UB 1955​

Isaiah 5:20​

"Who say, "Let Him make speed, let Him hasten His work, that we may see it; And let the purpose of the Holy One of Israel draw near And come to pass, that we may know it!" Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight!…​

 

[PsychoSarah]

My point is that life really is stranger than fiction. Our world has been the host of many ages of diverse thinking and beliefs. The age of scientific enlightenment is very young. The world view of people that lived 1000 years ago or 2000 years ago or 5000 years ago are all different. We don't have a monopoly on reality or the truth of origins and possibilities. 1000 years from now they will look back and smile at what we think and do today.

What we call normal are just our current norms.

True, but the general pattern doesn't suggest suddenly views from thousands of years ago will suddenly be vindicated.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Silly claims? You live on a ball of hot rock sandwiched between a thin crust and poison space, out on the fringe of the Milky Way, in the middle of nowhere. What is your standard for normal?

Depends on what we are applying "normal" to

 

[Archaeopteryx]

This is the same thing that happens to people who fall away from faith, they invest so much of their ego's into the cause of the doctrines of doubt that their pride wont let them turn back. In their delusional ,near paranoid state they perceive believers as the enemy.

The "doctrines of doubt" sounds like something you made up in the face of questioning.