The difficulty of talking to Atheist

[BL2KTN]

The realm that Lucifer was born into is just as real as the realm that we are born into. We know our parents, Lucifer knew his parents. In the same way that the incarnate Son lead us to faith in his unseen Father, The Son of God on high lead his son Lucifer to trust in the unseen paradise Father.

Then Lucifer can't be an atheist. If he knew his parents and his parents are gods, then he knows gods exist. He absolutely must be a pantheist. He can rebel against them, but he can never erase his knowledge.

Lucifer knew his parents in his realm, the unseen Father was a matter of faith to him.

Nope. You said Lucifer was born from the Son of God and the Mother Nature Spirit. Because those two are divine, and because Lucifer knows them, Lucifer cannot be atheist. He knows the divine exist.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Then Lucifer can't be an atheist. If he knew his parents and his parents are gods, then he knows gods exist. He absolutely must be a pantheist. He can rebel against them, but he can never erase his knowledge.



Nope. You said Lucifer was born from the Son of God and the Mother Nature Spirit. Because those two are divine, and because Lucifer knows them, Lucifer cannot be atheist. He knows the divine exist.

Precisely. Even better, Satan couldn't purposely pit itself against god if it wasn't aware that god existed or at the very least believed god existed.

 

[Loudmouth]

It doesn't say that he's going to appear in man form when those things are destroyed?

Where in the Old Testament does it say that the Messiah is to be the son of God? Where does it say anywhere that God is to appear in human form?

 

[Loudmouth]

Exactly which prophecies are wrong? Some of them haven't came to pass yet? That's pretty simple.

I just showed you which ones weren't fulfilled. It clearly states that IN THE DAYS of the Messiah that Israel will be free from enemies. In 70AD, Israel fell to the Romans, the exact opposite of the Messianic prophecies. Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophecies as you claim.

 

[Loudmouth]

The Jews have had 2000 years to review the record, you can ask them why Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah. Their expectations were derived from their scripture, Jesus didn't do what the expected Messiah was supposed to do. The problem wasn't the Son of God, the problem was the evolution of the concept of a material, political Messiah who would be a priest/prophet/king figure that would take up David's seat, destroy Israel's enemies and rule the earth. Early Jewish converts to the Jesus movement expected his eminent return to do all those things, but he didn't. There was no 2000 year gap in the prophetic expectations of the Jews, they did NOT expect The Son of God, they did NOT expect a spiritual kingdom preached to all the earth, the did NOT expect to take part in some Pagan human sacrifice of the person of the Messiah.

Why Don't Jews Believe In Jesus | The difference between Judaism and Christianity

Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. We show that he didn't. It is then claimed that it was the prophecies that were wrong, and Jesus is still the Messiah? Is that the story now?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Lucifer is more along the lines of an anti-theist theist. He believes God exists as do the demons and is against God, hence the "anti".

 

[Colter]

Then Lucifer can't be an atheist. If he knew his parents and his parents are gods, then he knows gods exist. He absolutely must be a pantheist. He can rebel against them, but he can never erase his knowledge.



Nope. You said Lucifer was born from the Son of God and the Mother Nature Spirit. Because those two are divine, and because Lucifer knows them, Lucifer cannot be atheist. He knows the divine exist.

Your parents are Sons of God yet you don't believe it. Same thing.

Lucifer lost faith that his parents were Sons of the Universal Father, in his proud mind he conceived that they were lying to him or deluded as so many arrogant atheist claim.

"Self-contemplation is most disastrous, even to the exalted personalities of the celestial world. Of Lucifer it was said: “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your brightness.” Your olden prophet saw his sad estate when he wrote: “How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cast down, you who dared to confuse the worlds!” UB 1955​

 

[PsychoSarah]

Lucifer is more along the lines of an anti-theist theist. He believes God exists as do the demons and is against God, hence the "anti".

What a weird belief label, but I guess it works. That makes Satan literally an individual that believes in god who doesn't support the worship of deities. Seems about right, although I'd say Satan probably only would care about the worship of the deity it hates and not any others.

 

[Colter]

Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled the Messianic prophecies. We show that he didn't. It is then claimed that it was the prophecies that were wrong, and Jesus is still the Messiah? Is that the story now?

No, but I can appreciate your frustration. I will explain what I believe to be the case.

Judaism is for the most part an evolved religion. Between Gods agreement with Abraham (by way of Melchizedek) and Jesus, the Israelites were a fairly ordinary people. The OT is a retrospective which distorts the secular history of the Jews, it converts a secular history into a miraculous fiction elevating the Hebrew nation above all others as "Gods chosen people." It was compiled in the tidy package that we have know as the OT books during the Babylonian captivity. The authors made no claim of divine inspiration, it wasn't until the return that the priest class began to refer to the books as "scripture."

Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah, the Jewish Messiah was a composite concept derived from various ideas from the OT. There were and even still are, diverging concepts of what the Messiah was to be or will still be for the Jews in the future. Many figures came before and after Jesus claiming to be the Messiah. Note, Jesus didn't make the claim, his followers made the claim about him. But he did use the concept as a kind of bridge from rigid Judaism to his gospel of the kingdom of heaven.

Again, the Jewish Messiah is an erroneous idea that never came to pass.

 

[BL2KTN]

Your parents are Sons of God yet you don't believe it. Same thing.

I was made from my parents having procreating sex and they were created from their parents having procreating sex. Lucifer apparently came into being as a fully formed adult through spirit magic. He must know that he was created by spirit magic, and thus he cannot be atheist (he knows that magic and the divine exist).

Lucifer lost faith that his parents were Sons of the Universal Father, in his proud mind he conceived that they were lying to him or deluded as so many arrogant atheist claim.

I thought you said that all divine beings have parents??? That means Lucifer is right... the Mother Nature Spirit and the Son of I AM are require to have parents. They are not simply Sons of the Universal Father.

Lucifer is more along the lines of an anti-theist theist. He believes God exists as do the demons and is against God, hence the "anti".

Jeremy's back, everybody! So, Jeremy, if Lucifer knows there is a god of love and goodness (and according to the book of Job he plays games with him), why fight against him?

 

[PsychoSarah]

No, but I can appreciate your frustration. I will explain what I believe to be the case.

Judaism is for the most part an evolved religion. Between Gods agreement with Abraham (by way of Melchizedek) and Jesus, the Israelites were a fairly ordinary people. The OT is a retrospective which distorts the secular history of the Jews, it converts a secular history into a miraculous fiction elevating the Hebrew nation above all others as "Gods chosen people." It was compiled in the tidy package that we have know as the OT books during the Babylonian captivity. The authors made no claim of divine inspiration, it wasn't until the return that the priest class began to refer to the books as "scripture."

Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah, the Jewish Messiah was a composite concept derived from various ideas from the OT. There were and even still are, diverging concepts of what the Messiah was to be or will still be for the Jews in the future. Many figures came before and after Jesus claiming to be the Messiah. Note, Jesus didn't make the claim, his followers made the claim about him. But he did use the concept as a kind of bridge from rigid Judaism to his gospel of the kingdom of heaven.

Again, the Jewish Messiah is an erroneous idea that never came to pass.

I don't understand why you consider yourself Christian then.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Satan desired that he be worshipped and not God. He was a witness of God's majesty and desired to be worshipped and reverenced instead of being one who worshipped and reverenced. I marvel at this. And yet I can relate. Many times I have had the same feeling he must have had.

 

[Colter]

What a weird belief label, but I guess it works. That makes Satan literally an individual that believes in god who doesn't support the worship of deities. Seems about right, although I'd say Satan probably only would care about the worship of the deity it hates and not any others.

Satan knew his Father, who is Christ, but he lost faith in his Fathers God, who is the Universal Father.

“Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”​

 

[PsychoSarah]

Satan knew his Father, who is Christ, but he lost faith in his Fathers God, who is the Universal Father.

“Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”​

The serpent in Eden is never stated to be Satan in the Old Testament. Its punishment even doesn't quite fit for that to be the case, despite allusions to it in the New Testament

 

[Colter]

Satan desired that he be worshipped and not God. He was a witness of God's majesty and desired to be worshipped and reverenced instead of being one who worshipped and reverenced. I marvel at this. And yet I can relate. Many times I have had the same feeling he must have had.

We get this same irony from Atheist, they think we are gullible for trusting a God, but they have no problem with us trusting them.

Lucifer lost faith in a God......but had no problem trying to become one.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Satan desired that he be worshipped and not God. He was a witness of God's majesty and desired to be worshipped and reverenced instead of being one who worshipped and reverenced. I marvel at this. And yet I can relate. Many times I have had the same feeling he must have had.

I wouldn't want to be worshipped, the attention would be annoying, everyone would over evaluate everything I did, I would never have peace

 

[Tinker Grey]

Lucifer is more along the lines of an anti-theist theist. He believes God exists as do the demons and is against God, hence the "anti".

What a weird belief label, but I guess it works. That makes Satan literally an individual that believes in god who doesn't support the worship of deities. Seems about right, although I'd say Satan probably only would care about the worship of the deity it hates and not any others.

A better word I've seen is maltheism

 

[PsychoSarah]

We get this same irony from Atheist, they think we are gullible for trusting a God, but they have no problem with us trusting them.

Lucifer lost faith in a God......but had no problem trying to become one.

Gullilble is not quite it. Unless you are of the sort who has never bothered to read the bible, I don't view you as gullible for believing it. I just think our perceptions are different.

 

[Colter]

The serpent in Eden is never stated to be Satan in the Old Testament. Its punishment even doesn't quite fit for that to be the case, despite allusions to it in the New Testament

I guess the serpent could have meant "cashier at the 7-11" but religious people tend to see a parabolic reference to the deceiver in Genesis.

 

[Loudmouth]

No, but I can appreciate your frustration. I will explain what I believe to be the case.

Judaism is for the most part an evolved religion. Between Gods agreement with Abraham (by way of Melchizedek) and Jesus, the Israelites were a fairly ordinary people. The OT is a retrospective which distorts the secular history of the Jews, it converts a secular history into a miraculous fiction elevating the Hebrew nation above all others as "Gods chosen people." It was compiled in the tidy package that we have know as the OT books during the Babylonian captivity. The authors made no claim of divine inspiration, it wasn't until the return that the priest class began to refer to the books as "scripture."

Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah, the Jewish Messiah was a composite concept derived from various ideas from the OT. There were and even still are, diverging concepts of what the Messiah was to be or will still be for the Jews in the future. Many figures came before and after Jesus claiming to be the Messiah. Note, Jesus didn't make the claim, his followers made the claim about him. But he did use the concept as a kind of bridge from rigid Judaism to his gospel of the kingdom of heaven.

Again, the Jewish Messiah is an erroneous idea that never came to pass.

We are told that Jesus did fulfill these prophecies, and that we atheists are ignoring this evidence. Upon further inspection, Jesus did not fulifll the prophecies.

Are you saying that you disagree with christians who use fulfilled prophecy as a reason for conversion? Are you saying that there are other reasons to have faith, but fulfilled prophecies are not one of them?