The Difference Between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming of Christ

[jgr]

The prophecy of Joel, is about the Day of the Lord! The Day of the Lord comes with the return of Jesus in His Second Coming, as Jesus taught in Mt.24:4-31. Show me where that took place at Pentecost, and cut out the pointless arguing! You have no argument!


Quassar92

I don't argue. I let Scripture do that for me.

 

[BABerean2]

Why didn't you post verse 10 in your above post, where Jesus has returned in His Second Coming to the earth? Did Jesus return in His second coming at Pentecost? Stay out of eschatology.
!



Quasar92

Why don't you read the verse without putting your Dispensational spin on it?

The word "coming" is not in the verse.

.

 

[Marilyn C]

We know that no one can see God and live. How did the Psalmist survive this observation?
8 Smoke went up [f]out of His nostrils,
And fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.


Peter declared "this is that" prior to his quote from Joel, thus not futurizing it, and signifying that it was to be understood metaphorically.

Hi jgr,

You misunderstood me bro. David was, I believe, referring to what Moses saw & wrote concerning the event at Mount Seir. David would have been quite conversant with his nation`s history. Thus it is in the past tense. Also we know that David was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write such descriptions of God`s activities.

As to Peter`s statements & the context -

`"Look are not all these who speak Galileans?....we hear them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?" Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine." (Acts 2: 7, 11 - 13)

The people were asking about the speaking in different languages and the ability to do that by men of Galilee. Some were mocking and said the `ability` came from `new wine.` Peter then gives the explanation referring to an activity of God by His Holy Spirit.

` But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you supposed, since this is only the third hour of the day, but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh;...` (Acts 2: 14 - 17)

Previously God had only given of His Holy Spirit to select people - eg, the prophets. However God is revealing through the prophet Joel that before the `great and notable day of the Lord,` He would pour out His Spirit on all flesh. (Obviously not all will receive of His Spirit, but the offer will be there.)

Now Peter is NOT saying that this is the time Joel spoke about, what Peter is referring to is what makes the Galileans have the ability to speak different languages to those listening. That was the question - `Whatever could this mean? ...they are drunk...`So the focus is what is enabling the disciples to speak in those different languages - and of course we know it is the Holy Spirit. Peter refers to Joel to show that this activity is by the Holy Spirit. Peter does not say that the timing of Joel is then, (at Pentecost).

So...what was the question asked to the disciples,...then that is what is being answered. To add anything else is going beyond what is being focussed on - the Holy Spirit, (not the Day of the Lord).

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

So what is the law that the gentiles do not have, and yet do What is required of it?
Romans 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.


Their conscience bears witness when they do the works of the law. This shows that the law(love your neighbor as yourself) is written on their hearts.

2 things mentioned below: law written on their hearts and ALSO their conscience bears witness by excusing their actions or giving them conflicting thoughts.

Romans 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them

Hi claninja,

Fair enough questions. Gentiles through out time (even before Israel) had a God given conscience, we agree, as it is in God`s word. Now let`s note the phrase you put in bold - `for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things contained in the law..` (Rom. 2: 14)

That would be - not to lie, steal, murder etc. However special laws were given to Israel as God had revealed Himself to them and they were to then teach the nations of God. God gave the people of Israel laws regarding how to relate to Him - the Sabbath, the tabernacle & the priest`s clothing and activity & the festivals. The Gentiles not knowing God as such were not expected to fulfil those laws.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

What promises did the OT saints see from afar and what were they looking for?
Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

They were promised a homeland and that is what they were looking for
Hebrews 11:14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.

But not just any homeland, something much better than the physical, they were waiting for the promise of the homeland above
Hebrews 11:16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Though these OT saints were faithful, they did not receive what was promised
Hebrews 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,

They did not receive it because they were not together with the body of Christ. If they are apart from us (the body of Christ) they are not made perfect. For it is Christ who is the heir of the promises, and as we are one with Christ (his body) we too are also heirs.
Hebrews 11:40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.


Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And this includes the OT saints, as apart from us, they are not made perfect

Good scriptures there bro,

Now my favourite subject, the eternal purposes, and probably deserves its own thread. However I will reply here, though it needs much more discussion to bring out God`s revelation on this great subject.

So what I see you are thinking is that the OT saints come into the Body of Christ. Scripture does not say this. God`s word clearly shows the Body of Christ and the OT saints, as two separate groups. (Heb. 12: 23) So it is `how` this comes about - `they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb.11: 40) You think - in the Body of Christ. However there are a few obstacles you`ll have to overcome -

1. `God having provided something better for us,..` (Heb. 11: 40) (better - Gk. word`kreitton,` from `kratos` meaning great, dominion)

2. The Holy Spirit was not given to the OT saints to make them like Christ. This was only available to those in the Body of Christ, post Pentecost. (Note the Holy Spirit only came upon some OT saints for a special purpose, and was not in them.)

3. The complete Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit within the believers - `...till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..` (Eph. 4: 13)

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Quasar92]

I don't argue. I let Scripture do that for me.

Except, you try making them say what you want them to say, rather than what they are saying and mean.


Quasar92

 

[Quasar92]

Why don't you read the verse without putting your Dispensational spin on it?

The word "coming" is not in the verse.

.

Show me where the dispensationalism is in the following Scriptures, you consider to be such a viable argument against the Scriptures refuting you.

How do you expect the people of Israe to see Jesus if He hs not come,

Zech.12:1 "The revelation of the word of the Lord concerning Israel: The Lord—he who stretches out the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth, who forms the human spirit within a person—says, 2 “I am about to make Jerusalem a cup that brings dizziness to all the surrounding nations; indeed, Judah will also be included when Jerusalem is besieged. 3 Moreover, on that day I will make Jerusalem a heavy burden for all the nations, and all who try to carry it will be seriously injured; yet all the peoples of the earth will be assembled against it. 4 On that day,” says the Lord, “I will strike every horse with confusion and its rider with madness. I will pay close attention to the house of Judah, but will strike all the horses of the nations with blindness. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say to themselves, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are a means of strength to us through their God, the Lord who rules over all.’ 6 On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like an igniter among sticks and a burning torch among sheaves, and they will burn up all the surrounding nations right and left. Then the people of Jerusalem will settle once more in their place, the city of Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also will deliver the homes of Judah first, so that the splendor of the kingship of David and of the people of Jerusalem may not exceed that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord himself will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the weakest among them will be like mighty David, and the dynasty of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord before them. 9 So on that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.”
10 “I will pour out on the kingship of David and the population of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication so that they will look to me, the one they have pierced. They will lament for him as one laments for an only son, and there will be a bitter cry for him like the bitter cry for a firstborn. 11 On that day the lamentation in Jerusalem will be as great as the lamentation at Hadad-Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, clan by clan—the clan of the royal household of David by itself and their wives by themselves; the clan of the family of Nathan by itself and their wives by themselves; 13 the clan of the descendants of Levi by itself and their wives by themselves; and the clan of the Shimeites by itself and their wives by themselves— 14 all the clans that remain, each separately with their wives.”


More details of Jesus second coming WITH His Church, not recorded in the above:

The Lord Comes and Reigns
Zech.14:1 "A day of the Lord is coming, Jerusalem, when your possessions will be plundered and divided up within your very walls.

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake[a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.



Quasar92

 

[jgr]

Hi jgr,

You misunderstood me bro. David was, I believe, referring to what Moses saw & wrote concerning the event at Mount Seir. David would have been quite conversant with his nation`s history. Thus it is in the past tense. Also we know that David was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write such descriptions of God`s activities.

As to Peter`s statements & the context -

`"Look are not all these who speak Galileans?....we hear them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God." So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?" Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine." (Acts 2: 7, 11 - 13)

The people were asking about the speaking in different languages and the ability to do that by men of Galilee. Some were mocking and said the `ability` came from `new wine.` Peter then gives the explanation referring to an activity of God by His Holy Spirit.

` But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. For these are not drunk, as you supposed, since this is only the third hour of the day, but this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, that I will pour out of my Spirit on all flesh;...` (Acts 2: 14 - 17)

Previously God had only given of His Holy Spirit to select people - eg, the prophets. However God is revealing through the prophet Joel that before the `great and notable day of the Lord,` He would pour out His Spirit on all flesh. (Obviously not all will receive of His Spirit, but the offer will be there.)

Now Peter is NOT saying that this is the time Joel spoke about, what Peter is referring to is what makes the Galileans have the ability to speak different languages to those listening. That was the question - `Whatever could this mean? ...they are drunk...`So the focus is what is enabling the disciples to speak in those different languages - and of course we know it is the Holy Spirit. Peter refers to Joel to show that this activity is by the Holy Spirit. Peter does not say that the timing of Joel is then, (at Pentecost).

So...what was the question asked to the disciples,...then that is what is being answered. To add anything else is going beyond what is being focussed on - the Holy Spirit, (not the Day of the Lord).

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

If David (or the Psalmist) was referring to God's literal descent upon Mt. Seir (and I agree that He did descend literally), then what would be the literal explanation for v. 8, and for all of the other phenomena appearing in the psalm?




Peter is delivering the inaugural sermon at one of the greatest watershed events in human history – the birth of the NT Christian Church. One would automatically believe, upon reading v. 16, that it is that birth, and all that it represents and implies, that is the “this” in that verse.

But, if I understand you at least partially accurately, you are claiming that the “this” is the assembled congregation's amazement upon being informed that the translations into their own languages are not being delivered by a coterie of drunks?

Marilyn, you can't be serious.

It is impossible to overstate the significance of the birth of the Church, the body and bride of Christ its Leader, the structure built upon the Rock, the edifice of which He declares “the gates of hell will not prevail against.” What Peter quotes from Joel is a dramatic metaphor of the profound significance of that birth and what it says and means, culminating with the ringing announcement of the Church's mission and purpose – to proclaim that “whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

There is more significance, meaning, and message packed into that “this” than you or I or anyone will ever be able to fully comprehend in this life.

Take a long deep spiritual look at that “this”, and recognize the profound meaning and blessing that it represents, to yourself, myself, and every believer who names the name of Christ and is a member of His body, the Church.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

If David (or the Psalmist) was referring to God's literal descent upon Mt. Seir (and I agree that He did descend literally), then what would be the literal explanation for v. 8, and for all of the other phenomena appearing in the psalm?


Peter is delivering the inaugural sermon at one of the greatest watershed events in human history – the birth of the NT Christian Church. One would automatically believe, upon reading v. 16, that it is that birth, and all that it represents and implies, that is the “this” in that verse.

But, if I understand you at least partially accurately, you are claiming that the “this” is the assembled congregation's amazement upon being informed that the translations into their own languages are not being delivered by a coterie of drunks?

Marilyn, you can't be serious.

It is impossible to overstate the significance of the birth of the Church, the body and bride of Christ its Leader, the structure built upon the Rock, the edifice of which He declares “the gates of hell will not prevail against.” What Peter quotes from Joel is a dramatic metaphor of the profound significance of that birth and what it says and means, culminating with the ringing announcement of the Church's mission and purpose – to proclaim that “whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

There is more significance, meaning, and message packed into that “this” than you or I or anyone will ever be able to fully comprehend in this life.

Take a long deep spiritual look at that “this”, and recognize the profound meaning and blessing that it represents, to yourself, myself, and every believer who names the name of Christ and is a member of His body, the Church.

Hi jgr,

As I said in my post, we know the Holy Spirit moved upon the prophets to reveal God and His activities, (purposes) and this is true of Ps. 18. Verse 8 is a description we would understand of something beyond us.

Now to your second point. If we take a look at what Peter preached -
`Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.` (Acts 2: 36)

Peter knew nothing of the Body of Christ as the revelation had not yet been given (to Paul). Peter was speaking what he was instructed to speak -
`Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when he was taken up from us, one of these must become witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 21 & 22)

Peter is telling the house of Israel that it is the Holy Spirit that came upon them and that they are witnessing of Jesus being the Lord and the Christ. The house of Israel has an opportunity at this point to receive their Messiah. God is patient but as we know as a nation they not only rejected Jesus, but (at the end of Acts) at the end of Paul`s life, the leaders rejected the Holy Spirit. Thus as a nation they became partially blinded.

Since the Body of Christ is both Jews and Gentiles, then it was not till the Head of the Body gave the revelation to Paul that the actual Body began to develop. I see the time as a lap over time where God is gracious to Israel to yet turn and receive their Messiah by the given Holy Spirit and the Body of Christ is forming.

Marilyn.

 

[claninja]

Hi Marilyn,

That would be - not to lie, steal, murder etc.

Which is what I believe it means as well: ie Loving your neighbor as your self, which is the 2nd part of the 10 commandments.

However, now I am having a little bit of hard time following your beliefs as they are contradicting.
Previously you stated this

As to the law written on the hearts of the unbelievers, (Rom. 2: 15) that is their conscience, & not the 10 commandments which was given to Israel.

But now you are saying thay it is

That would be - not to lie, steal, murder etc.

At first it appears you deny that the law (10 commandments)
is written on the gentiles hearts, by saying it is their conscience because, I am assuming, you are trying to stay consistent with your dispensational theological beliefs. I.e. One that believes that "the law written on their hearts" prophecy has not occurred yet. However, you then state that the gentiles do not lie, steal, murder (part of the 10 commandments) as required in the law, even though the gentiles themselves do not have the law.

Even though Paul literally says they have the law written on their hearts in the following verses, you first deny and then later affirm with your own words that they do.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

Which is what I believe it means as well: ie Loving your neighbor as your self, which is the 2nd part of the 10 commandments.

However, now I am having a little bit of hard time following your beliefs as they are contradicting.
Previously you stated this

But now you are saying thay it is


At first it appears you deny that the law (10 commandments)
is written on the gentiles hearts, by saying it is their conscience because, I am assuming, you are trying to stay consistent with your dispensational theological beliefs. I.e. One that believes that "the law written on their hearts" prophecy has not occurred yet. However, you then state that the gentiles do not lie, steal, murder (part of the 10 commandments) as required in the law, even though the gentiles themselves do not have the law.

Even though Paul literally says they have the law written on their hearts in the following verses, you first deny and then later affirm with your own words that they do.

Hi clanija,

I think we need to clarify, `God`s laws.` Firstly, God gave man a conscience and due to the fall we know of evil. Thus mankind knew what was right and what was wrong. He knew that God`s `law` was to not lie, steal, murder etc, and this is what people who have not heard of Jesus will be judged upon.

Then when God gave Moses the specific 10 laws (& others) it was for Israel to obey these. The Gentiles were never required to have a Sabbath, or a tabernacle with priests & feast days. These were learning tools so that God could teach Israel concerning His ways and then eventually they would teach the nations of the world. This we see in the millennium.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[claninja]

He knew that God`s `law` was to not lie, steal, murder etc,

So we agree the , the law is written in the gentiles heart.

These were learning tools so that God could teach Israel concerning His ways and then eventually they would teach the nations of the world. This we see in the millennium.

I would disagree, they were just a shadow of things to come which were fulfilled in Christ
Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.


These regulations Are not needed for those who belong to Christ
Colossians 2:16-17, 20-23 if with Christ you died tod the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” referring to things that all perish as they are used—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[claninja]

Good scriptures there bro,

Now my favourite subject, the eternal purposes, and probably deserves its own thread. However I will reply here, though it needs much more discussion to bring out God`s revelation on this great subject.

So what I see you are thinking is that the OT saints come into the Body of Christ. Scripture does not say this. God`s word clearly shows the Body of Christ and the OT saints, as two separate groups. (Heb. 12: 23) So it is `how` this comes about - `they should not be made perfect apart from us.` (Heb.11: 40) You think - in the Body of Christ. However there are a few obstacles you`ll have to overcome -

1. `God having provided something better for us,..` (Heb. 11: 40) (better - Gk. word`kreitton,` from `kratos` meaning great, dominion)

2. The Holy Spirit was not given to the OT saints to make them like Christ. This was only available to those in the Body of Christ, post Pentecost. (Note the Holy Spirit only came upon some OT saints for a special purpose, and was not in them.)

3. The complete Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit within the believers - `...till we all come to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..` (Eph. 4: 13)

regards, Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,

Scripture does not mention the word trinity either. But that doesn't mean jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father are not one.

I'm not really following you here, so I have to ask you to clarify this.

How do the Old Testament saints receive the promise without being perfected through Christ, if as you say, they are a separate group from the body of Christ?

 

[Marilyn C]

So we agree the , the law is written in the gentiles heart.

I would disagree, they were just a shadow of things to come which were fulfilled in Christ
Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.


These regulations Are not needed for those who belong to Christ
Colossians 2:16-17, 20-23 if with Christ you died tod the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” referring to things that all perish as they are used—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

Hi claninja,

I agree that those things were a shadow of things to come - Christ, his character and offices. So thank you for highlighting that. My comment regarding `a tool to teach the nations...` will be outworked in the millennium when Israel is over the Nations, I believe. Then, some feast days - Sabbath & Feast of Tabernacles, plus some sacrifices, will be to teach the nations that `God is dwelling with His people, `(Tabernacles - dwelling) & also to show what Christ has done by shedding His precious blood to redeem people from their sin.

Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,

Scripture does not mention the word trinity either. But that doesn't mean jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Father are not one.

I'm not really following you here, so I have to ask you to clarify this.

How do the Old Testament saints receive the promise without being perfected through Christ, if as you say, they are a separate group from the body of Christ?

Hi claninja,

I would love to discuss all those points you have raised, however I think we are now far removed from the topic of this thread. Would you consider discussing this on its own thread? Either you or I can start it.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[claninja]

Hi claninja,

I would love to discuss all those points you have raised, however I think we are now far removed from the topic of this thread. Would you consider discussing this on its own thread? Either you or I can start it.

regards, Marilyn.

You absolutely right. I'll post this, so we can get some insight from other believers. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[Ronald]

Have you ever stopped to think what the Scriptures tell us where believers go after the death of our bodies? Where are we going when our body dies?

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." As recorded in 2 Cor.5:8, confirming Ecc.12:7. Which is, IMO, conclusive to the fact that Jesus is not going to let the rest of His Church remain on earth to go through the tribulation. He will return for all of us who belong to Him, still alive here on earth, at His appearing, according to Jn.14:2-4 and 1 Thes.4:14-18. All those who have died in Him, go to be with Him in heaven, immediately after their physical death, according to 2 Cor.5:6-8. Beginning with Pentecost, they are seen returning with Him from heaven, in 1 Thes.4:14, when He returns for all of us who belong to Him, left here on earth alive at His appearing in the clouds of the sky. Beginning with Jn.14:2-4 and 28, He returns to take us with Him, back to our Father in heaven. As recorded in 1 Thes.4:17, when we will be CAUGHT UP [raptured] together with them [all those who previously died in Him] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

"In my Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me, that you also may be where I am." Vs.3."And you know the way to where I am going." Jn.14:2-4.

And where did Jesus tell them He was going? "You heards me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me , you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." Vs 28. Confirmed in Jn.16:10, 17 and 28.

The important fact in the above to keep in mind is, that it cannot possibly take place when Jesus returns in His Second Coming to the earth. Because, in the above passage, He returns for all those who belong to Him, bringing with Him all those who had fallen asleep [Died] in Him from heaven, AND RETURNS WITH THEM ALL TO OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN!

The above passage is reinforced by Paul, in 1 Thes.4:14-18, alluding to, "will be CAUGHT UP/RAPTURED together with them [The dead in Christ] to meet the Lord in the clouds of the air, in vs 17." Vs 14 refers to God bringing with Jesus, all those who previously died in Him, and are with Him in the clouds of the air, when all of us who belong to Christ, left here on the earth alive at His appearing, meet Him, together with them, in the clouds of the air. Where in vs 15, Paul reveals the entire event is ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD, which is directly from Jn.14:2-4 and 28. The only place in the Scriptures Jesus taught the believers in Him then, what we refer to today as the rapture of the Church.

How does the above teaching of the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church by Jesus, Paul and John, differ from His Second Coming to the earth? Jesus returns in His second coming to the earth, with His entire Church, [After the marriage to His Bride, the Church, in heaven, in Rev.19:7-9] [as well as in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14 and Rev.19:14], in His armies from heaven, as well as His angels, recorded in Mt.24:30-31. He will return to fight the battle of Armageddon first, to defeat the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them, in Rev.19:11-20. He does not gather anyone to Himself in the clouds of the sky in His second coming, as He will in the rapture, nor does He return to heaven with them, as He will at the rapture of the Church! But rather, to save the remnant of Israel, in Zech.12:10 and Zech.14. Then Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for 1,000 years, in Rev.20:1-3, then to administer the first resurrection, in Rev.20:4 and 6, bringing peace to the entire earth.

He will then establish His 1,000 year reign on the earth. NOTICE that Jesus DOES NOT return to heaven at any time after He sets foot on the Mount of Olives [Zech.14:5] in His Second Coming, until God has created the new heaven and earth, in Rev.21:1, as seen in verses 22-23.Jesus testimony about His Second Coming to the earth, in Mt.24:30-31:"At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. [At the end of the seven years of tribulation]. [Confirming Zech.12:10-13] Israel in particular, because they will then recognize Jesus as their Messiah FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME. While the rest of the world will finally realize Jesus is who He said He was, the Son of God. You will not see any mourning when Jesus appears in the clouds of the sky at the rapture of the Church, when He calls up all those who belong to Him, left here on the earth alive, before the seven year tribulation begins. But rather, great rejoicing will take place!

They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather His ELECT [Jesus is addressing Israel, not the Church which did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Vs 30-31. The angels will gather His ELECT, in Mt.24:31, from the four winds [ISRAEL], from one end of the heavens to the other [THE RAPTURED CHURCH], in His second coming,- confirming Ez.34:11-16, meaning, the Jewish people from all over the entire world. Take notice: No one meets the Lord in the clouds of the sky, here. Nor does does He return from the clouds of the sky with us, to our Father in heaven, as the Scriptures reveal He will in Jn.14:2-4 and 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, at the pre-trib rapture of the Church. Nor does Jesus remain in the clouds of the sky, but will take us to our Father in heaven.

Jesus will return in His second coming, to the earth, where He will remain to establish His 1,000 year kingdom here on the earth, according to Rev.20:4 and 6. Jesus Olivet Discourse, recorded in Mt.24; Mk.13 and in Lk.21, pertains to His second coming to the earth and has nothing whatever to do with the Church. Because the ministry during His first advent was exclusively to Israel, as He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 as well as in 10:5-6. The Church did not exist until the arrival of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, in Acts 2:1-3, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, in Acts 1:9. It was in response to the questions His disciples had asked Him in Mt.24:3, "...when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age." Which He clearly revealed to them, completely through the seven year tribulation to the signs of His coming and of His actual arrival, in Mt.24:30-31 on the Mount of Olives, according to Zech.14:4-5.

The "second coming" is found in Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14; where you find Jesus returning with all His angels in Mt.24:30-31 and His entire Church following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, in Rev.19:14 [A sign of the righteous acts of the saints, as found in Rev.19:8, NIV], in His armies from heaven. Which makes it quite impossible for any such thing as a post-trib rapture.The entire text by Jesus, from Mt.24:4-31 is an amplification of Dan.9:27, where God has decreed Israel to go through the 70th and final week/the seven year tribulation. Which the Church will not go through, according to 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8. The antichrist is all three of the "he's" in Dan.9:27, the very same person found in Dan.7:23-27; 8:9-12 and in 9:27, confirmed by Paul, in 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 8, that immediately follow the pre-trib rapture of the Church, recorded in 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8.

There is no resemblance of Mt.24:30-31, or in any of the counterparts in Mk.13 and Lk.21 of the second coming of Christ, to the earth, to that of the pre-trib rapture of the Church, when Jesus gathers us all into the clouds of the sky and takes us from there to our Father in heaven, as He promised us, in Jn.14:2-4 and 28. And Paul in 1 Thes.4:14-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8. Confirming Dan.9:27. [The latter confirms who the antichrist is, his triggering the 70th and final Week/seven year tribulation and the timing of the pre-trib rapture of the Church as confirmed by Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-4].

From another source: http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-DifferencesBetweenTheRapt.pdf


Quasar92

There is no evidence of a Pre-Trib rapture. We are taken out at the "last trumpet" which means #7. It also means we will have to go through the first six trumpets which are the last warnings. The wrath of God is in the seven bowls which are released at the seventh trumpet.
Many things happen at the seventh trumpet which supports this few:
* Rev. 10:7 > the mystery of God is revealed
* The resurrection (rapture) of the church occurs ( 1 Cor. 15:51-53; 1 Thes. 4:16, 17, Rev. 11:15) Rev. 7:9 showing the multitude in heaven that just came "out of" the tribulation is the same event of Rev. 11:15, just a different vantage point. The seven seals are the written play but the actions are in the trumpets and bowls. It like a sphere or events overlapping with God showing us different vantage points. Revelation cannot be understood in a linear chronological way. Another example is chapters 14 and 7, two different views of the same 144k. This is why Revelation is so confusing.
* The kingdoms of the world have become the Lord's.
* The dead are resurrected and judged also.
* We receive rewards according to our deeds.
* The Temple of God is open in heaven (Rev. 11;19 & 15:5)
* The Bowls of Wrath are released
Two possibilities exist, one may support Pre-Trib. view and the other a Mid-Trib rapture:
1. If the trumpets are blown rapidly or simultaneously in which case the written word is showing us one at a time for perspective only and then the events accumulate over time, then we will not experience any tribulation. So the coming Feast of Trumpets in Sept 2017 have some events tied to them, especially since a heavenly sign (Rev. 12:1) will be witnessed on 9-23-2017.
2. If they are not blown quickly, then we will at least experience some tribulation, but not the worst of it. If you read the 5th trumpet events, demon locusts are released from the Abyss to torture only those who have the mark of the beast and avoiding us for five months suggests that we are still around.

 

[claninja]

Hi claninja,

I agree that those things were a shadow of things to come - Christ, his character and offices. So thank you for highlighting that. My comment regarding `a tool to teach the nations...` will be outworked in the millennium when Israel is over the Nations, I believe. Then, some feast days - Sabbath & Feast of Tabernacles, plus some sacrifices, will be to teach the nations that `God is dwelling with His people, `(Tabernacles - dwelling) & also to show what Christ has done by shedding His precious blood to redeem people from their sin.

Marilyn.

Hi Marilyn,
While a don't ageee with you that the the things of the old covenant, will be needed to be followed again in the millennium, I none the less appreciate you sharing what you believe about it with me.

 

[Marilyn C]

There is no evidence of a Pre-Trib rapture. We are taken out at the "last trumpet" which means #7.

Hi Ronald,

Concerning the `last trump` being the 7th one in the trib. that would be a very superficial reading of scripture. God`s voice is described `as a trumpet,` (Rev. 1: 10 & 4: 1) and we can see by the different contexts who He is speaking (trumpeting) to.

In Cor. 15 we see that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the Body of Christ, for the last time because after that they will speak `face to face` in glory.

Then in Matt. 24 by context realise that God is speaking to Israel. They are His elect (also). He sends his angels with a great sound of a trumpet.

Then in Rev. 11: 15 we realise that God is speaking (trumpeting) to the nations of the world.

Thus, it all, as everything depends on what God is saying and to whom.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Marilyn,
While a don't ageee with you that the the things of the old covenant, will be needed to be followed again in the millennium, I none the less appreciate you sharing what you believe about it with me.

Hi claninja,

Thank you. I also appreciate hearing your views and know that by the Holy Spirit He will give us clarity so we can all come to the truth.

Now the different feasts God gave to Israel as a `rehearsal` of God`s specific appointed times, some still have to be fulfilled - in the millennium, the Feast of Tabernacles (God dwelling with His people) will find fulfilment in time and then in eternity will go on and on. (Rev. 21:3)

Now as to the new thread, will you post it here or elsewhere?

regards, Marilyn.