The Date of Revelation >70AD or <90AD

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Revelation itself disproves the Early date of pre 70 AD.

The use of the Term soon to come or I come Quickly as proof of the early date falls short by the very standard Preterists put to it.

Preterists believe that Judgement day is still to come yet John records this

Rv 21:12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

There is judgement day I guess it must have happened by 70 AD after all…… he says I come quickly …………surely he didn't mean over 2,000 years away. I say that with all the scepticism I can get into a sentence.

Let us forget such phrases and let us look at what is being said in terms of events.

The best place for that is in Chapter 12. Because we have some events I think ALMOST everyone will agree has Happened and we all know when..

Rv 12:5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This is very clearly Jesus. So at this point we are at about 27 AD

Verse 7 then goes back in Time again To War in heaven and Satan being Cast Down to Earth which we also know when This was.

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Lk:10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

So here is Satan falling from Heaven after the 70 return To Jesus having the Power to drive out Demons who are Satan's workers.

So let us Continue

11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Well here are the Apostles or those same 70 being put to death. Notice it says love NOT their Lives it does not say and THEY WILL NOT……….It says DID NOT. Clearly this event has already happened as John is being showed the vision this is a recap of what has gone on up to the vision. Many of the 70 in fact most were killed by the Jews not the Romans.

13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

So here Satan or The Dragon Persecutes the Woman Who is the twelve Tribes of Israel or some would say The True Church the true Olive Tree.

Well we know that the Romans went after the Jewish Nation starting in about 66 AD so this is about 66AD.

14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

This is the destruction of Jerusalem……….. as the Saints… or the Woman……. flee from the Dragon ……….Jerusalem is destroyed in a flood.

Daniel 9: Confirms this

26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

It is no coincidence that Jesus uses the same words in both of these prophesises. When we Trust the words of the one who wrote the book we can see where we are and it is 70 AD. This whole section of Revelation is very clearly in the PAST TENSE. Lets Continue.

16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth

Well Satan's attempts to use Rome to destroy the Truth fail and the Earth swallows up the flood and she and her remnant escape into the people's of the Empire they are a wash and everywhere.

Well Satan is not impressed

Rv 12: 17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So now Satan goes after Christianity. This again starts in about 67 AD but is after most of the 70 have been killed. This is more then just Nero's one persecution this is still in the past tense and includes 30 years of persecution and still more TO COME all the way to the end of the Saints.

When we take the Chapter Title out of Rev and run 12 and 13 together we can see the First Beast of Rev 13 is very clearly Rome..

[17] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. [1]And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads.

Here we see Satan using Rome to chase down Christianity we are Told later that he will overcome the saints. This indeed does happen

This past Tense takes a Turn in Chapter 13 verse

[7] Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation, [8] and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

It then goes on to talk about the False Kingdom of God that would rise up out of the Earth Appearing to be the kingdom of God but speaking like Satan.

Revelation was clearly written after all the Saints but John were killed this as we have seen takes us far past the date of 70 AD which is toted as the return of Jesus by Preterists.

 

[inhimitrust]

I will look at what you have. I copied it to wordpad for later. As far as dating it, if this was indeed a warning of the coming destruction of Jerusalem, it would seem like it would have to have been written early enough for readers of that age to see it. Maybe this should have been put as the last book of the OT . A lot of the prophets spoke (thru God) in the past tense of things that would happen in the future, I notice that quite a lot.

Revelation is a giant devine jigsaw puzzle and not in order, and more like a devine historical record when I read it. The first thing to notice is the 12 tribes mentioned and the elect sealed that were saved from that destruction. That is a big key to the 2 beast. The true "church" was the church of Philadelphia ("brotherly love") in the 7 "random" churches. The one doomed to destruction was the church of Thyatira ("odor of affliction"). I had to read the churches over and over again until I realized what they really represented concerning revelation and the beast of the Sea.
I will have to read what you said and compare it to what I have and glad to see someone at least looking at it close, no matter what they come up with. Unfortunately I have about 6 folders on revelation with lots of scripture. Just interpreting the 2 witnesses as "Christ"(and shown later as a lamb that had been wounded) took me about a week
I wish I could meet you privately to discuss this as it is very difficult to do online, trust me.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

No revelation is right where it should be.

The last Message of Jesus through his Apostles to warn them of a Terrible lie that would one day be thrust upon Asia Minor and from there spread around the world.

 

[Pacigoth13]

I agree that Revelation was written in the 90's. All the historical and Biblical data point at least to 90 CE if not later. There are many good points to preterism, but this isn't one of them. As John Crossan would say, "Duh! Get over it!"

 

[inhimitrust]

I agree that Revelation was written in the 90's. All the historical and Biblical data point at least to 90 CE if not later. There are many good points to preterism, but this isn't one of them. As John Crossan would say, "Duh! Get over it!"

That may or may not be correct, but it still doesn't doesn't change what revelation actually represents. Paul got special revelation from Christ that was completely at odds with what the apostles were taught, but in the end, Peter came to understand it and why he wrote in his epistle about Paul being hard to understand. That is what ties the whole NT together and makes the whole bible easier to understand and why Christ came down in the first place. John the baptist, Christ and Paul each were sent by God for specific purposes, Christ of course being the chosen Son of God/son of man and the one to die on the cross, though John and Paul were both "beheaded".

 

[PaladinValer]

I'd guess the Book of Revelation was written by a man claiming to be St. John sometime between 90-110 ce.

 

[inhimitrust]

I'd guess the Book of Revelation was written by a man claiming to be St. John sometime between 90-110 ce.

I don't assume who wrote it. A lot of names were changed in the bible and some had the same names. It is the message we look at, not who actually wrote it. If God would have really wanted us to know who wrote revelation,John could have said he was the desciple that Christ loved and he was on the island of Patmos in exile.
When I read the bible, I am not even thinking about who wrote it, but looking at the message in it, otherwise you go off into another tangent to find "proof" on who wrote what, when, and where then doubt enters the mind, which can be dangerous.

 

[PaladinValer]

I don't assume who wrote it. A lot of names were changed in the bible and some had the same names. It is the message we look at, not who actually wrote it. If God would have really wanted us to know who wrote revelation,John could have said he was the desciple that Christ loved and he was on the island of Patmos in exile.
When I read the bible, I am not even thinking about who wrote it, but looking at the message in it, otherwise you go off into another tangent to find "proof" on who wrote what, when, and where. That is not as important to me.

I agree; so long as the book was canonized, it is proof enough that it was Divinely inspired.

Still, many people find interest on who exactly wrote the books of the Bible.

 

[inhimitrust]

I agree; so long as the book was canonized, it is proof enough that it was Divinely inspired.

Still, many people find interest on who exactly wrote the books of the Bible.

That is alright, but then they spend more time on that and never reach a final conclusion anyway and may come away with more doubts.
I read thru the book of Enoch and thought that might even be inspired, but I didn't study it. It was a fascinating book though and uses the same symbology and figuratism as the rest of the bible(espcially close to Daniel as far as "animals" being used). But since it wasn't "canonized", I don't use it as a reference with the rest of the devine scriptures that were "canonized".

 

[inhimitrust]

Hi

No revelation is right where it should be.

The last Message of Jesus through his Apostles to warn them of a Terrible lie that would one day be thrust upon Asia Minor and from there spread around the world.

Him and Paul were also warning them of the corrupt priest and elders of Jersalem. Who do you think were the ones persecuting Paul and the desciples all that time? About where the book of Rev should be, I agree, but all the prophets were also writing about "revelations" of the future in the same kind of devine symbolic and figurative language for the people of that age that should have been able to understand it, and which God's elect people ("lost sheep") did understand it, as that is why Christ and Paul were sent to them. How much was for that age and how much for 2000 or more years in the future, and the bringing in of God's "new thing".

Isaiah 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing, Now it shall spring forth; Shall you not know it? I will even make a road in the wilderness [And] rivers in the desert.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi In Him


the bringing of the new thing is Holy Jerusalem out of Heaven Which is the Promise we have based our Faith upon.

Eph:1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The promise was not fulfilled at Jesus' death but is fulfilled at the First Resurrection.

Heb:6:12: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

It is through Faith and the fruits of the Spirit that we inherit this promise when Holy Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven.

 

[@@Paul@@]

Not being a preterist of any kind, I still hold to the pre-70ad date. Thanks for your thoughts, Let try to explain mine/

Hi

Revelation itself disproves the Early date of pre 70 AD.
The use of the Term soon to come or I come Quickly as proof of the early date falls short by the very standard Preterists put to it.
Preterists believe that Judgement day is still to come yet John records this
Rv 21:12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

There is judgement day I guess it must have happened by 70 AD after all…… he says I come quickly …………surely he didn't mean over 2,000 years away. I say that with all the scepticism I can get into a sentence.

70ad was not a judgment (per se). As in the OT when Israel is “Not His people” there is no temple. IE: It was destroyed. And being so, this destruction had nothing to do with Revelations and the future period of Daniels 70th week.
Most of the authors in the NT, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, predicted the End being near.

Jam 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming (personal presence) of the Lord draweth nigh.
Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.​

In Pauls last “Acts” epistle He wrote:

Rom 13:12 KJV The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
1Co 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming (the revelation) of our Lord Jesus Christ:​

The entire book of Jude was concerning coming judgment.
The Apostle John wrote:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time (appointed time) is at hand.
Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time (hour, “the last hour”): and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.​

Let us forget such phrases and let us look at what is being said in terms of events.
The best place for that is in Chapter 12. Because we have some events I think ALMOST everyone will agree has Happened and we all know when..

Rv 12:5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This is very clearly Jesus. So at this point we are at about 27 AD

Verse 7 then goes back in Time again To War in heaven and Satan being Cast Down to Earth which we also know when This was.

7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Lk:10:18: And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

So here is Satan falling from Heaven after the 70 return To Jesus having the Power to drive out Demons who are Satan's workers.

First, lets assume this is a prophetic book (as it is). as with most prophetic books, it could be referring to future events. So, Is Jesus Christ the only ONE to rule all nations with an iron rod?……. the answer is NO and is Jesus Christ the only one to the “raptured” to His throne?…… again, the answer is NO. We could assume this is talking about some historic time, But it MIGHT be taking future as well.

I do not think Satan has been “cast-out” of heaven, yet. Falling and being cast-out is not the same thing…

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:​

Here Satan did the casting. Not the angels, nor God. It’s not until verse 7 we see Satan (and his angels) cast-out of heaven. This has to be some future event.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

Satan still has access to heaven. He probably up there right now pointing out some fault (accusing) I have to God…. As In the story of Job. Here we read Satan know’s he has a short time. As with all the verses I quoted above, this has a sense of “shortness”. So what happened?
We clearly can see some “spiritual application” to this due to the persecutions of early Christian by pagan Rome… but this, as everything else is a “shadow of someting to come”.

So let us Continue

11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.​

Well here are the Apostles or those same 70 being put to death. Notice it says love NOT their Lives it does not say and THEY WILL NOT……….It says DID NOT. Clearly this event has already happened as John is being showed the vision this is a recap of what has gone on up to the vision. Many of the 70 in fact most were killed by the Jews not the Romans.

I see this as referring to the persecutions of Christians during the 70th week. Those who “overcome” will rule with an Iron Rod. Are you saying there will be no actual “tribulation”?

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.​

Those who live at this time would not have been told to “overcome” if it was going to be easy.

13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
So here Satan or The Dragon Persecutes the Woman Who is the twelve Tribes of Israel or some would say The True Church the true Olive Tree.
Well we know that the Romans went after the Jewish Nation starting in about 66 AD so this is about 66AD.

14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

I will go so far to say this is a picture of “true Israel” as described by Paul in Romans. Not all Israel are OF Israel, through Isaac (>Jacob) shall the seed be called. This “woman” was defined in chapter 7. The 144,000 who flee into the wilderness for a “a time, and times, and half a time” or 3-1/2 years.
I believe this happens MID-Trib. after Satan is cast out of heaven; his “short time” is 3-1/2 years or 1280 days.

This is the destruction of Jerusalem……….. as the Saints… or the Woman……. flee from the Dragon ……….Jerusalem is destroyed in a flood.

Daniel 9: Confirms this
26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.

It is no coincidence that Jesus uses the same words in both of these prophesises. When we Trust the words of the one who wrote the book we can see where we are and it is 70 AD. This whole section of Revelation is very clearly in the PAST TENSE. Lets Continue.

The prophets of old never saw this age of grace; the visions were always Messiah<His Death>The Kingdom…. So Daniel is also talking about some future time. The book of Hosea is the story of how God is going to take Israel back, in future tense.

Hos 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.​

Israel will be “blinded” as seen in Acts 28:28 until at least 3rd day… This event was in =/-63ad. So it will be at least 2000 years before the clock starts ticking again.

16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth

Well Satan's attempts to use Rome to destroy the Truth fail and the Earth swallows up the flood and she and her remnant escape into the people's of the Empire they are a wash and everywhere.

Well Satan is not impressed

Rv 12: 17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So now Satan goes after Christianity. This again starts in about 67 AD but is after most of the 70 have been killed. This is more then just Nero's one persecution this is still in the past tense and includes 30 years of persecution and still more TO COME all the way to the end of the Saints.

When we take the Chapter Title out of Rev and run 12 and 13 together we can see the First Beast of Rev 13 is very clearly Rome..

Maybe, but it’s still a mystery which is why John saw the name that way… When it is no longer a “mystery”, and If in fact it ends up being Rome, only then can we say>It’s Rome. We will always run into problems when we use History to interpret the bible and not the bible itself. Knowledge of the OT is clearly needed to understand revelations, not history.

[17] Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea. [1]And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems upon its horns and a blasphemous name upon its heads.

Here we see Satan using Rome to chase down Christianity we are Told later that he will overcome the saints. This indeed does happen

I see this as referring to the believers in the seven churches mentioned during the opening chapters of Revelations. Clearly more people will be saved than just “True Israel” > 144,000….

This past Tense takes a Turn in Chapter 13 verse

[7] Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation, [8] and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

It then goes on to talk about the False Kingdom of God that would rise up out of the Earth Appearing to be the kingdom of God but speaking like Satan.

Revelation was clearly written after all the Saints but John were killed this as we have seen takes us far past the date of 70 AD which is toted as the return of Jesus by Preterists.

Most of the persecutions of early Christians you’re speaking about happened prior to 100ad… are you saying half of Revelations is a historical book? Or John had this vision while this stuff was going on?

Now, as to why I see a pre-70ad date, I will turn to scripture.

Peter wrote 1 peter from Babylon in 60ad. It’s evident he knew the contents of Revelations.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?​

Paul wrote Hebrews around 53ad where he says:

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.​

The only other reference to “a heavenly city, the new Jerusalem” is in Revelations. So it looks as if it was written prior to 53ad.

 

[inhimitrust]

Hi In Him


the bringing of the new thing is Holy Jerusalem out of Heaven Which is the Promise we have based our Faith upon.

Eph:1:13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The promise was not fulfilled at Jesus' death but is fulfilled at the First Resurrection.

Heb:6:12: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

It is through Faith and the fruits of the Spirit that we inherit this promise when Holy Jerusalem comes down out of Heaven.

Have you ever read thru the New Jerusalem closely? It is an ongoing vision, with the evil outside of it. Another words, they are away from the presence of God, whereas those with the Holy Spirit are living with the presence of God, with evil and hatred all around. But the Spirit of God as spoken thru Paul gives us joy, peace, happiness and the hope of having eternal life after this one, and we can never "die". Compare it to the garden of eden and the temple in Ezekiel. The NJ is an awsome wonderfull vision, but a symbolic figurative vision representing the Holy Spirit. That is the way I visioned it awhile back and I am happy with that.

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Revelation 17:

9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while.

The City of Seven Hills- Rome has been known as that since ancient times.
Five Have Fallen-Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero
One Is-Vespasian

So, if Vespasian was in power at that time, the book of Revelation must have been written then. His reign lasted from 69-79. Those are the dates during which Revelation was written.

 

[@@Paul@@]

The City of Seven Hills- Rome has been known as that since ancient times.
Five Have Fallen-Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero
One Is-Vespasian

Babylon also had seven hills (or plateaus). hum...

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

Yes, that is why Rome was called Babylon the Great. Babylon was in a sense resurrected in Rome. Notice the parallel prophecy for Babylon and Rome in Jeremiah

 

[@@Paul@@]

Yes, that is why Rome was called Babylon the Great. Babylon was in a sense resurrected in Rome. Notice the parallel prophecy for Babylon and Rome in Jeremiah

But Peter wrote from "Babylon" in 60ad, there is no proof He was even in Rome (or ever set foot in Rome for that matter).

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

When was Peter writing from Babylon? And what does that have to do with anything? Isn't it irrelevant who went there?

 

[@@Paul@@]

When was Peter writing from Babylon? And what does that have to do with anything? Isn't it irrelevant who went there?

1Pe 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
1Pe 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.​

If Peter was writing from a place called Babylon, and He never stepped foot in Rome (at least prior to 60ad).... I would conclude babylon and rome were two different places..

 

[Bizzlebin Imperatoris]

And indeed they are. Babylon, and Babylon the Great. But still, why does it matter if Peter did or did not go to Rome?