The CREATOR vs Evolution and why upholding the Sabbath is SO Important

[Lulav]

We all agree that sin is still sin.

How can there be sin without law?

 

[Cribstyl]

How can there be sin without law?

Tell me when I'm making a statement you disagree with.
According to Genesis, God made man is His image, after His likeness, with ability to choose good or evil. True or false?
If you say true, you agree that man is not a robot, and he has the propensity to miss the mark of righteousness. True or false?
God gave Adam 1 commandment (not a law). Adam sinned by breaking the commandment he was given. True or False?
So, my answer to your question is: If we're created in the image of God, no law is needed to sin.

Law is given for a people or group.
Individuals can do evil things not spelled out in a law. ( Looking for a direct response please.)


When the word 'sin' is first used in the bible, it is when God said to Cain:
Gen 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God gave the understanding that; sin is a desire from inside of a man, that want to come out the door (of your mind) and rule over the man. The words "if thou doest not well" means, "if you make the wrong choice." (Looking for your response)
God does not say; Cain, my law says thou shalt not kill, because the law first came to Israel through Moses' hands.



Those who say that Adam was given the 10 commandments, cannot apply the word of the law to Adam.
Can we stay on your question "How can there be sin without law? THX

 

[Cribstyl]

How can there be sin without law?

The bible answers your question in Rom 5
Rom 5:12
¶
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[fn] because all sinned—
Rom 5:13
for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14

Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15
¶
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man’s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16
And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17
For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness

It cannot get any clearer than what's said above. Paul had the same Old Testament that you have.
Adam had 1 commandment from God. The fact that it's not 1 of the 10 commandments should reveal that the law was not given as yet.

 

[Cribstyl]

How can there be sin without law?

That question often comes from those who abuse specific scriptures and ignore the facts. They take 1john 3:4 from the KJV as a premise.
If you look at the Greek words from the original manuscript, the word law is not used. The New King James Version made the correction by saying

1John 3:4
NKJV
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

They don't want the corrected translation for this passage, which is found in most transliterations, so they use that text from the KJV as premise to say; No law, no sin.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That question often comes from those who abuse specific scriptures and ignore the facts. They take 1john 3:4 from the KJV as a premise.
If you look at the Greek words from the original manuscript, the word law is not used. The New King James Version made the correction by saying

1John 3:4
NKJV
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

They dont want the corrected version for this passage, which is found in most transliterations, so they use that text from the KJV as premise to say; No law, no sin.

Lawlessness means without law, so I’m not sure the point that is being made here.

law·less·ness
a state of disorder due to a disregard of the law.

The law is what reveals sin, its like a mirror so we know what not to do.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

 

[Cribstyl]

Lawlessness means without law, so I’m not sure the point that is being made here.

law·less·ness
a state of disorder due to a disregard of the law.

The law is what reveals sin, its like a mirror so we know what not to do.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

The Greek word anomia is in the bible 15 times, 12 times it means iniquity, 1 time it means unrighteousness.
Lawlessness can also be interpreted as; absent of law, or acting as if there is no law at all. It does not always suggest there is a known law being ignored.

Imagine an indoor pool that is 20 feet deep with no signs or warning. After someone drowns, a warning is placed by the pool. The sign reveals the dept of the pool and that death is possible. The sign is the law. The law was not always there. Before the law, death was possible. After the law death is possible. Yes, the law reveals sins, but it came when it was given.
There are too many scriptures telling us when the law was given.
Abuse of 1John 3:4 from the KJV is a major scam.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Greek word anomia is in the bible 15 times, 12 times it means iniquity, 1 time it means unrighteousness.
Lawlessness can also be interpreted as; absent of law, or acting as if there is no law at all. It does not always suggest there is a known law being ignored.

Imagine an indoor pool that is 20 feet deep with no signs or warning. After someone drowns, a warning is placed by the pool. The sign reveals the dept of the pool and that death is possible. The sign is the law. The law was not always there. Before the law, death was possible. After the law death is possible. Yes, the law reveals sins, but it came when it was given.
There are too many scriptures telling us when the law was given.
Abuse of 1John 3:4 from the KJV is a major scam.

Roman’s 7:7 makes it abundantly clear breaking God’s law is a sin. Romans 7:7 God cannot judge if there is not a standard to judge from which is why we have God’s law and how we will be judged. James 2:10-12. All of God’s commandments are righteous Psalms 119:172 so not keeping them would be unrighteous. The real scam that is deceiving millions is the teaching that we no longer have to do what is righteous in God’s eyes and no longer need to keep God’s commandments that He personally wrote and is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 that is right under His mercy seat, that God spoke and God wrote saying He shows mercy to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20:6 Scripture warns us that the majority are deceived and Jesus taught we should be teaching others to keep these commandments Matthew 5:19-30 and warns those who teach against them or keeps traditions over the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9 quoting right from this unit of Ten that we are told we cannot add or subtract from. Deut 4:2 because this is the work of God Exodus 32:16 who we are to serve and worship in Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24. All of God’s commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 so what would be not keeping them? Scripture tells us 1 John 2:3-4 Revelation 22:15

 

[Leaf473]

Sin is breaking the law.

Sin is being without law.

Big difference in how those two statements land on our ears.

When we hear "the law" in a bible discussion, we tend to think the law of Moses.

So looking at the first sentence,
if sin exists (it does) then the law of Moses must still be in effect.

But the second sentence has the feel of: If you follow a law of some kind
(for example, the law of Christ),
then you are not without law, so that passage isn't talking about your situation.

7The LORD's Law is perfect, restoring the soul. The LORD's testimony is sure, making wise the simple.

8The LORD's precepts are right, rejoicing the heart. The LORD's commandment is pure, enlightening the eyes.

9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever. The LORD's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
Psalm 19

 

[Cribstyl]

Sin is breaking the law.

True statement, once a law has been given.
Being created in the image of God, means man Has free will.

Law is given to govern a people. It's a law if everyone has to keep it.

Sin is being without law.

False, man is the creation of God, Sin is unrighteousness that can come from a man without having a law.
Sin is a result of temptation through lust of the flesh.

Big difference in how those two statements land on our ears.

When we hear "the law" in a bible discussion, we tend to think the law of Moses.

So looking at the first sentence,
if sin exists (it does) then the law of Moses must still be in effect.

Faulty reasoning contradicts scriptures.

 

[Leaf473]

True statement, once a law has been given.
Being created in the image of God, means man Has free will.

Law is given to govern a people. It's a law if everyone has to keep it.

False, man is the creation of God, Sin is unrighteousness that can come from a man without having a law.
Sin is a result of temptation through lust of the flesh.

Faulty reasoning contradicts scriptures.

The first two statements of post #128 are intended as the two main ways that people understand the phrase from 1 John 3:4:
ἡ ἁμαρτία ἐστὶν ἡ ἀνομία.

Those are the two main ways that the phrase is translated:

1 John 3:4 - Bible Gateway

www.biblegateway.com

Apologies if that wasn't clear.

About 20 or 30 of the translations in the Bible Gateway link above use the word "lawlessness" to render "anomia".

"properly, the condition of one without law — either because ignorant of it, or because violating it."

Strong's Greek: 458. ἀνομία (anomia) -- lawlessness

A common line of reasoning of those who wish to say that the Sabbath must be kept today exactly as it is written in the ten commandments is that
since sin is transgression of the law, therefore the law
(understood as including the ten commandments)
must still be in effect.

Imo, the phrase is better understood as meaning that sin is the condition of being without law or having utter disregard for the law. Thus, if a person respects the law of Christ, that phrase isn't about them.

 

[FredVB]

When we don't act responsibly to a law, even that which is served with living according to love, we are acting on motives serving our self and our lusts. There is a warning about those whose god, who they serve, is their belly.

 

[Leaf473]

When we don't act responsibly to a law, even that which is served with living according to love, we are acting on motives serving our self and our lusts. There is a warning about those whose god, who they serve, is their belly.

True! And actually, one possible way of translating 1 John 3:4 is "Sin is rebellion."

 

[expos4ever]

How can there be sin without law?

There can certainly be sin without the Law of Moses:

....or till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; 14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression,

Paul is clearly acknowledging the obvious - between Adam and Moses, sin was in the world even in the absence of the Law of Moses. I am not, at this time, prepared to comment on your more general assertion that in order for sin to "exist", there must be law. Here, Paul says that sin is not reckoned when there is no law. While I am not exactly sure what he means by "reckoned", it seems at least plausible that sin could exist in the absence of a law, but it would not be "reckoned" - whatever that means - in such absence.

 

[Cribstyl]

There can certainly be sin without the Law of Moses:

....or till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; 14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression,

Paul is clearly acknowledging the obvious - between Adam and Moses, sin was in the world even in the absence of the Law of Moses. I am not, at this time, prepared to comment on your more general assertion that in order for sin to "exist", there must be law. Here, Paul says that sin is not reckoned when there is no law. While I am not exactly sure what he means by "reckoned", it seems at least plausible that sin could exist in the absence of a law, but it would not be "reckoned" - whatever that means - in such absence.

You're absolutely correct, that's what Paul's epistle to the Romans says in chapter 5.

Sabbatarians utilize a partial quote from 1John 3:4 to establish a premise; "no law no sin."

 

[Cribstyl]

Roman’s 7:7 makes it abundantly clear breaking God’s law is a sin. Romans 7:7 God cannot judge if there is not a standard to judge from which is why we have God’s law and how we will be judged. James 2:10-12. All of God’s commandments are righteous Psalms 119:172 so not keeping them would be unrighteous. The real scam that is deceiving millions is the teaching that we no longer have to do what is righteous in God’s eyes and no longer need to keep God’s commandments that He personally wrote and is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 that is right under His mercy seat, that God spoke and God wrote saying He shows mercy to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20:6 Scripture warns us that the majority are deceived and Jesus taught we should be teaching others to keep these commandments Matthew 5:19-30 and warns those who teach against them or keeps traditions over the commandments of God Matthew 15:3-9 quoting right from this unit of Ten that we are told we cannot add or subtract from. Deut 4:2 because this is the work of God Exodus 32:16 who we are to serve and worship in Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24. All of God’s commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 so what would be not keeping them? Scripture tells us 1 John 2:3-4 Revelation 22:15

Rom 7:6 makes it clear that we're not under the law that governs the flesh. We're to live in the Spirit.

Rom 7:6
But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
Rom 7:7
¶ Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”[fn]

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Rom 7:6 makes it clear that we're not under the law that governs the flesh. We're to live in the Spirit.

Rom 7:6
But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
Rom 7:7
¶ Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”[fn]

Do you really think living by the Spirit means we can freely break God’s law? The author you quoted disagrees.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And then reminds us what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19. If one is living by the Spirit they are keeping God’s commandments not breaking them and sinning. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20. Living by the Spirit is greater than the letter and if one is living by the Spirit keeping the lenter of the law is automatically kept and Jesus showed us examples of this right from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 5:21-30. The commandments are like a mirror so we know what not to do.Romans 7:7 It’s a good way to test oneself to see if they are in the faith. Those with faith uphold God’s law. Romans 3:31 We are either a slave to God and obey or a slave to sin (breaking God’s law) one path leads to righteousness, the other path destruction and the decisions we make places us on one of these two paths. Romans 6:16.

 

[Cribstyl]

Do you really think living by the Spirit means we can freely break God’s law? The author you quoted disagrees.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And then reminds us what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19. If one is living by the Spirit they are keeping God’s commandments not breaking them and sinning. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 Romans 3:20. Living by the Spirit is greater than the letter and if one is living by the Spirit keeping the lenter of the law is automatically kept and Jesus showed us examples of this right from the Ten Commandments. Matthew 5:21-30. The commandments are like a mirror so we know what not to do.Romans 7:7 It’s a good way to test oneself to see if they are in the faith. Those with faith uphold God’s law. Romans 3:31 We are either a slave to God and obey or a slave to sin (breaking God’s law) one path leads to righteousness, the other path destruction and the decisions we make places us on one of these two paths. Romans 6:16.

Respectfully SB, my comments which are in black are few. I intend to let the scriptures speak for itself.
Did I say that we can break God's law? NO.
How does Paul disagree with me if I'm quoting him from Rom 7:6? What did I say in post #135
that Paul did not say?
Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.
Truth is that; your comments and application of Rom 7:7 is contradicting what Paul is teaching in this context. (Rom 7)
We've addressed your application of the other scriptures you often post.
May God open both our eyes to His word.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Respectfully SB, my comments which are in black are few. I intend to let the scriptures speak for itself.
Did I say that we can break God's law? NO.

Then why are you arguing against keeping God's law? If you agreed, there would be no debate.

How does Paul disagree with me if I'm quoting him from Rom 7:6? What did I say in post #135
that Paul did not say?
Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

Answered in detailed post #136- can we worship other gods, vain God's holy name, steal, covet - no, so Paul is not teaching we are released from the letter of the law but instead teaching us to live by the Spirit and tells us clearly those who do would be keeping God's law- those who are against God's law are living in the flesh (sin) Romans 8:7 which is what Romans 7:7 also tells us.

Truth is that; your comments and application of Rom 7:7 is contradicting what Paul is teaching in this context. (Rom 7)
We've addressed your application of the other scriptures you often post.
May God open both our eyes to His word.

There is no contradiction to my post and you can't say we are released from the law in one breath and in another say it's not okay to worship other gods, covet or steal, so either you have a misunderstanding of what it means to live by the Spirit and misunderstand what Paul is teaching. Paul says what matters is keeping God's commandments. Too many people depend on their version of right-doing and not God's Psalms 119:172, their truth over God's Psalms 119:151 our works can't save us but God's works Exodus 32:16 leads us to righteousness Romans 6:16 and is perfect for converting the soul Psalms 19:7

 

[Cribstyl]

Do you really think living by the Spirit means we can freely break God’s law? The author you quoted disagrees.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

These texts do not support your argument that we're still under the law. Paul is teaching how to live our lives in the spirit.

Rom 8:1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 And because you belong to him, the power[fn] of the life-giving Spirit has freed you[fn] from the power of sin that leads to death.
Rom 8:3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.[fn] So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.
Rom 8:4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
Rom 8:5¶ Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will.
Rom 8:8 That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
Rom 8:9 ¶ But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)
Rom 8:10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life[fn] because you have been made right with God.
Rom 8:11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
Rom 8:12¶ Therefore, dear brothers and sisters,[fn] you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
Rom 8:13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature,[fn] you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children[fn] of God.
Rom 8:15¶ So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children.[fn] Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”[fn]Rom 8:16

For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children.

Paul is teaching us that the requirements of the law (death for sin) was fulfilled and satisfied for us, by Jesus on the cross. (Rom 8:4)
Paul is teaching that the law could not save us, the law could only condemn us. (Rom 8:3)

Are we saying that sin is OK? NO, we're preaching love.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

These texts do not support your argument that we're still under the law. Paul is teaching how to live our lives in the spirit.

Rom 8:1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 And because you belong to him, the power[fn] of the life-giving Spirit has freed you[fn] from the power of sin that leads to death.
Rom 8:3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature.[fn] So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.
Rom 8:4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
Rom 8:5¶ Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will.
Rom 8:8 That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
Rom 8:9 ¶ But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)
Rom 8:10 And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life[fn] because you have been made right with God.
Rom 8:11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
Rom 8:12¶ Therefore, dear brothers and sisters,[fn] you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
Rom 8:13 For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature,[fn] you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children[fn] of God.
Rom 8:15¶ So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children.[fn] Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”[fn]Rom 8:16

For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children.

Paul is teaching us that the requirements of the law (death for sin) was fulfilled and satisfied for us, by Jesus on the cross. (Rom 8:4)
Paul is teaching that the law could not save us, the law could only condemn us. (Rom 8:3)

Are we saying that sin is OK? NO, we're preaching love.

Sin is breaking God's law so you can't say in one breathe we do not need to keep the law, but say in another its not okay to sin. Read Romans 8:7- those who live in the flesh are in enmity with God and doesn't keep His law. Paul is not contradicting himself and God and saying in one breath we no longer need to keep the law and then in the next says what matters is keeping the commandments of God. Many misunderstand Paul to teach lawlessness, but that is not what Paul teaches or the Word of God. Sin is what separated us from God, so its not wise to think we can follow the same path of disobedience and expect a different result. One of the last scriptures in the bible shows those who are obedient to God's commandments are reconciled with God, but outside are the lawless. Revelation 22:14-15

1 John 3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.

What "under the law means" is the penalty for breaking the law. Do we still need to keep the law- of course- living in grace does not mean we can live in lawlessness. Romans 6:1-2 Jesus took the penalty for our sins but when Jesus healed, He said go and sin no more. The Spirit is given to help us obey God's commandments John 14:15-18 and given to those who obey Acts 5:32 those who are not living in the Spirit are in enmity to God and are not subject to His law Romans 8:7

If you feel you are free to break God's holy law that can be between you and God. For me and my household I choose to serve God, which comes with obedience. Revelation 14:12

Jesus did not teach lawlessness and warns us of this very thing at His Second Coming. Matthew 7:21-23 hopefully you and others who teach we do not have to keep God's law will see this before its too late. Living by the Spirit one would be keeping the law- when Jesus taught not to have anger in the heart, He amplified the commandments- not "did away with and releasing us from thou shalt not murder" which is what was prophesied He would make the law greater, not smaller. Isaiah 42:21

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Take care