The 'coercive bargain' theory of Christianity.

[Lost Witness]

AFAIK God has always been against cold blooded murder and always been ok with killing to survive. Whether that is taking human life in self-defense, or other animal life or plant life. It is often necessary in order to remain a viable biological entity. But all that has no bearing on your question in regard to spending eternity in hell. What deeds one does is irrelevant to that. Every one of us has things to be ashamed of and every one of us has something we can point to that has been beneficial to others. Loving one's neighbor as much as one possibly can will not gain entrance into eternal salvation nor will temporarily hating one's neighbor disqualify one from it. Salvation doesn't depend upon what one does but on what God does. God offers everyone salvation as a free gift. He just won't force anyone to accept that gift..

No he hasn't? Or else he wouldn't tell you,"But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also"

 

[YahuahSaves]

Most of the world has no idea at all, and rejects Him and HIs Word and HIs Peoples.
Did you ever consider looking up the origin of the world's view of tinity ?

The Father, Son and Spirit are 1 God, 3 persons, you're messianic right? You still follow the dietary rules among other things.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Roving gangs of Mad Max style techno barbarians.

A vocal minority getting all hot and bothered because some people have sex a different hardly counts.

Having sex isn't the problem (believe it or not, Christians and other 'repressive' religious traditional types like sex within certain boundaries). In our sexually liberated times where we are told all sexual actions done with consent are legitimate and good, yet men seem to be having less sex than ever before. Inceldom and social atomization being a rather recent in the West.

That being said, the collapse of society need not be like a movie from the 1980s. If a society is unable to reproduce at above or replacement level, that society is in a very real sense dying. I guess this is good though, because it means the group that is committed to having children will gradually replace the libertines.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hmmm. The Nazis used to burn books they didn't like, also. Fairly quickly, they graduated on to shovelling babies into ovens,, and burning them, as well. Fortunately, you don't seem to have reached that level of depravity, yet, so I still have hope for you. You could redeem yourself by engaging with the argument I put, rather than simply dismissing it out of hand; that is, if you have any such comment to make.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Oh, I'm already redeemed. and since I consider us to be allies in the faith, and since it's Christmas, I think it rather behooves me to refrain from showering you with all of the counterpoints I could make against what is obviously a weak position on your part ...

Have a Merry Christmas!

 

[Neogaia777]

Ok, I'll tell you right now that I follow logic, and reason. And let's have an exercise in logic and/or reason for a minute, shall we...?

I'm going to have to ask everyone to lay all biases of any kind aside for a minute, ok, and follow along with me...

Is it logical or reasonable to assume that everything in the Old and New testaments was completely made up, or all was a lie, etc...?

Leaving aside your own personal biases in your own inability to accept the "supernatural" for a minute, is it logical to believe that they were all made up, or that the people were lying about all of it, etc...? Because I don't think it is logical to believe or assume that, etc... It is a lot more logical that they were reporting the truth about the power they witnessed, etc, and that they were only recording "history", etc, in the OT, with the plagues of Egypt, and other "stuff" that happened supernaturally in the OT, and in the NT, with Jesus, with all that he did that was quote/unquote "supernatural", etc... Logic says that, for one, these creatures or beings actually existed, God in the OT, and Jesus in the New, etc, and also that there is a power that exists that can do these things, and that these people were not lying, and that there is no way they could have invented this, or just made this all up, and that they were only recording "history", etc... So, you are left with a conundrum, and that is the evidence that there is power that can do these things that actually exists, etc... And I'd like to propose that this is a power comes from God the Spirit, who was God in the OT, or who is God the Holy Spirit in the NT now, who has always been here from the very beginning, but is not God the Heavenly Father that Jesus reasoned also exists, etc... But, this One (God the Spirit) does have power, etc, but just not power over man's choices, or his (man's) supposed free will, etc...

In the beginning, this One started out with whatever He said or spoke, always coming to pass or always happening just like He said, etc, so, there was no reason at all for Him to think or assume otherwise, etc, that is, until man came along, etc, and then, after that for the very first time, was his very first experience with things not always happening the way He laid out, or things not always happening or going according to the way He assumed, or always in line with His expectations, or plans, etc...

Plans had to change after the fall and after man in the Garden first disobeyed, etc, but it has always been His plan to have or created a race of people, or a society or nation of people, that would rule, eventually peacefully, over all others in the earth, and this was what He has been trying to do since the beginning, and all throughout the OT, and at every step along the way, and whenever plans had to change or be altered along the way, etc...

They all ended up in failure however, and the need to enact the plan of Jesus Christ having to come, became necessary, or needed to be instituted, etc...

So, He impregnated Mary with His own essence, or seed, in order to give birth to Jesus, etc... This was not a plan He wanted to always have happen always, but it became absolutely necessary, etc...

He showed Abraham the possibility of this might needing to happen, and Abraham understood why it should not be any Father's first choice, without having at first tried absolutely everything else first, etc...

The anguish the man Jesus would have to go through having to come to the realizations and truths he would have to come to, would bring both of them a lot of great anguish, and a lot of hell and great pain, etc... And it is what I talked about earlier with Jesus, sometime between the ages of twelve and thirty, knowing that there was another Father, or higher or greater God than God in the OT, who was also his Father, but that there was also another higher One, who was also his and our Father, etc... The hell this would bring both of them was neither of them's first choice, but it did become absolutely necessary, etc...

Jesus came to know all of what he had to do in his role as the Messiah, etc, and it wasn't all very pretty or at first very welcomed, etc, but he did do it, and he did it all, and did it all perfectly in or by the end of it, etc... He showed us that higher Father in himself, while at the same time trying his best not to betray his other Father that he also knew and had a very deep relationship with, etc, (they talked all the time, or the whole entire time, etc), anyway, and in so doing, sacrificed himself, and paid the ultimate price, forever paving the way for possible salvation, if each man each individually so chooses, etc, of us all, etc...

God in the OT did actually exist, for this is where all the power comes from, but He was not the highest of greatest, and did not always and at all times, always absolutely know all always, etc...

So it was necessary for Him to learn, both through failure in the OT, and from Jesus his Son, personally, in the New, etc, after which He changed in the way He dealt with/handled the rest of mankind, etc...

This is the One that is still here now, and that we can now have a personal relationship with now just like Jesus did now, etc, for we are the temples now, and we can be reconciled to that One now, without having to be completely free of all sin now, because that's what Jesus changed by all of what he did in the NT, and the NC now, etc... We can have Him talking to us now, and be a primary voice inside or heads now, etc... If you would like, or if you want Him to now, etc... But you do have to first come to know Him first, etc... And what I am right now telling you right now should with help that now, etc... I hear Him quite a bit now... Do you, or do you want (Him) to, etc...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

A god should be able to write a perfect book

It was perfect, because it was telling His and Their story (or history), etc...

See my post just now...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Ok, I'll tell you right now that I follow logic, and reason. And let's have an exercise in logic and/or reason for a minute, shall we...?

I'm going to have to ask everyone to lay all biases of any kind aside for a minute, ok, and follow along with me...

Is it logical or reasonable to assume that everything in the Old and New testaments was completely made up, or all was a lie, etc...?

Leaving aside your own personal biases in your own inability to accept the "supernatural" for a minute, is it logical to believe that they were all made up, or that the people were lying about all of it, etc...? Because I don't think it is logical to believe or assume that, etc... It is a lot more logical that they were reporting the truth about the power they witnessed, etc, and that they were only recording "history", etc, in the OT, with the plagues of Egypt, and other "stuff" that happened supernaturally in the OT, and in the NT, with Jesus, with all that he did that was quote/unquote "supernatural", etc... Logic says that, for one, these creatures or beings actually existed, God in the OT, and Jesus in the New, etc, and also that there is a power that exists that can do these things, and that these people were not lying, and that there is no way they could have invented this, or just made this all up, and that they were only recording "history", etc... So, you are left with a conundrum, and that is the evidence that there is power that can do these things that actually exists, etc... And I'd like to propose that this is a power comes from God the Spirit, who was God in the OT, or who is God the Holy Spirit in the NT now, who has always been here from the very beginning, but is not God the Heavenly Father that Jesus reasoned also exists, etc... But, this One (God the Spirit) does have power, etc, but just not power over man's choices, or his (man's) supposed free will, etc...

In the beginning, this One started out with whatever He said or spoke, always coming to pass or always happening just like He said, etc, so, there was no reason at all for Him to think or assume otherwise, etc, that is, until man came along, etc, and then, after that for the very first time, was his very first experience with things not always happening the way He laid out, or things not always happening or going according to the way He assumed, or always in line with His expectations, or plans, etc...

Plans had to change after the fall and after man in the Garden first disobeyed, etc, but it has always been His plan to have or created a race of people, or a society or nation of people, that would rule, eventually peacefully, over all others in the earth, and this was what He has been trying to do since the beginning, and all throughout the OT, and at every step along the way, and whenever plans had to change or be altered along the way, etc...

They all ended up in failure however, and the need to enact the plan of Jesus Christ having to come, became necessary, or needed to be instituted, etc...

So, He impregnated Mary with His own essence, or seed, in order to give birth to Jesus, etc... This was not a plan He wanted to always have happen always, but it became absolutely necessary, etc...

He showed Abraham the possibility of this might needing to happen, and Abraham understood why it should not be any Father's first choice, without having at first tried absolutely everything else first, etc...

The anguish the man Jesus would have to go through having to come to the realizations and truths he would have to come to, would bring both of them a lot of great anguish, and a lot of hell and great pain, etc... And it is what I talked about earlier with Jesus, sometime between the ages of twelve and thirty, knowing that there was another Father, or higher or greater God than God in the OT, who was also his Father, but that there was also another higher One, who was also his and our Father, etc... The hell this would bring both of them was neither of them's first choice, but it did become absolutely necessary, etc...

Jesus came to know all of what he had to do in his role as the Messiah, etc, and it wasn't all very pretty or at first very welcomed, etc, but he did do it, and he did it all, and did it all perfectly in or by the end of it, etc... He showed us that higher Father in himself, while at the same time trying his best not to betray his other Father that he also knew and had a very deep relationship with, etc, (they talked all the time, or the whole entire time, etc), anyway, and in so doing, sacrificed himself, and paid the ultimate price, forever paving the way for possible salvation, if each man each individually so chooses, etc, of us all, etc...

God in the OT did actually exist, for this is where all the power comes from, but He was not the highest of greatest, and did not always and at all times, always absolutely know all always, etc...

So it was necessary for Him to learn, both through failure in the OT, and from Jesus his Son, personally, in the New, etc, after which He changed in the way He dealt with/handled the rest of mankind, etc...

This is the One that is still here now, and that we can now have a personal relationship with now just like Jesus did now, etc, for we are the temples now, and we can be reconciled to that One now, without having to be completely free of all sin now, because that's what Jesus changed by all of what he did in the NT, and the NC now, etc... We can have Him talking to us now, and be a primary voice inside or heads now, etc... If you would like, or if you want Him to now, etc... But you do have to first come to know Him first, etc... And what I am right now telling you right now should with help that now, etc... I hear Him quite a bit now... Do you, or do you want (Him) to, etc...?

God Bless!

I do not know why God the Spirit does not show His power in such an obvious way like He did in the OT, or like He did with Jesus and some of Jesus direct apostles/disciples in the NT as much now anymore, but I'm sure He has His reasons, etc, could be that it negates faith maybe, etc, I don't know...? Or it could be that people are supposed to lose faith in Him now, or not believe in Him so much anymore now, as part of the next plan(s) now, I don't know, etc...?

But those who are going to conclude that He doesn't exist anymore now, or is somehow powerless now, because of this now, are not my problem anymore now, etc, for I already know what I believe, and others will believe whatever they wish or whatever they will anymore now, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I do not know why God the Spirit does not show His power in such an obvious way like He did in the OT, or like He did with Jesus and some of Jesus direct apostles/disciples in the NT as much now anymore, but I'm sure He has His reasons, etc, could be that it negates faith maybe, etc, I don't know...? Or it could be that people are supposed to lose faith in Him now, or not believe in Him so much anymore now, as part of the next plan(s) now, I don't know, etc...?

But those who are going to conclude that He doesn't exist anymore now, or is somehow powerless now, because of this now, are not my problem anymore now, etc, for I already know what I believe, and others will believe whatever they wish or whatever they will anymore now, etc...

God Bless!

He just told me that others will get to experience or see Him in others, and other things, that others will not get to have or experience anymore now, not even if they told them about it to their very face, and that is the way that it is now, etc...

Then He told me or said to me or asked me, surely you have seen or experienced some of this or a lot of that yourself J, to which I replied or said, yes I most certainly have, and do all of the time, and, no, others would not believe me or believe it even if I told it to their very face, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Strivax]

AFAIK God has always been against cold blooded murder and always been ok with killing to survive. Whether that is taking human life in self-defense, or other animal life or plant life. It is often necessary in order to remain a viable biological entity. But all that has no bearing on your question in regard to spending eternity in hell. What deeds one does is irrelevant to that. Every one of us has things to be ashamed of and every one of us has something we can point to that has been beneficial to others. Loving one's neighbor as much as one possibly can will not gain entrance into eternal salvation nor will temporarily hating one's neighbor disqualify one from it. Salvation doesn't depend upon what one does but on what God does. God offers everyone salvation as a free gift. He just won't force anyone to accept that gift..

That's exactly the point I was trying to make in the OP. Salvation is not a 'free gift', and to try to pretend it is is disengenuous. To qualify for salvation you need to believe in Jesus. Fail to believe, then many think you are headed for eternal torment in Hell. That is about as coercive as a bargain can get.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's exactly the point I was trying to make in the OP. Salvation is not a 'free gift', and to try to pretend it is is disengenuous. To qualify for salvation you need to believe in Jesus. Fail to believe, then many think you are headed for eternal torment in Hell. That is about as coercive as a bargain can get.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Personally, I think you're amalgamating some aspects of theology that need to be more finely individuated.

In fairly obvious that there is a bit of coercian (or moral pressure) placed upon us by the Lord to respond and live in Him in an appropriate way. I think it's justified. And why shouldn't we expect this from a Holy God? Because all too many people these days have abusive parents by whom they experientially measure the extent to which they think God should loves us in preconceived "appropriate" ways?

From what I remember reading in the Bible, His way DOES require us to make some amount of effort to live in and remain in the Covenant He has provided for us in Christ, and we're to do it without resorting to various excuses (usually ones that comport all too easily with Humanism) that the World just LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVES to concoct and cling to.

All this talk about whether God is coercive or not is double-talk and reflects a refusal to do the necessary engaging with nuances of meaning in the Bible that are there and which SHOULD take more than a mere 5 minutes to sort through and think about.

 

[Neogaia777]

That's exactly the point I was trying to make in the OP. Salvation is not a 'free gift', and to try to pretend it is is disengenuous. To qualify for salvation you need to believe in Jesus. Fail to believe, then many think you are headed for eternal torment in Hell. That is about as coercive as a bargain can get.

Best wishes, Strivax.

It was/is free in that we do not have to pay what is required to have it, or get it back, etc, and it is/was/still is, etc, now free, etc, in that it all comes down to simple choice, etc, that the Bible now says that men are without excuse now in not choosing, etc, after all who have preached to them/been sent to them, and after all that is/was done for them, and all that is/was shown to them that was about Him or Them, etc, (God and/or Jesus, etc), and also that the real truth about that is, is that they just simply didn't want to believe, or ever choose to believe, because they just simply never were His, and never really ever even wanted to choose Him, etc, to ever even begin with, etc...

And the more truth that gets put out there, the more without excuse you are, etc...

Unless you think you are going to come up with some that you think He is not already fully aware of, or doesn't already know the real full truth about, etc, on judgement day, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@Strivax

It's not my fault that you choose to worship the god of your own intellect, rather than the True God.

Or that you have been deceived into thinking you know more than God.

Or that you have allowed so much "completely worthless and useless knowledge" to deceive you, or severely limit and muddle your own mind.

Wanting to get into endless, worthless, and completely pointless and useless arguments, that are about nothing, in order to think you know something, but are really only there to keep you confused, and therefore muddle and deceive your own mind.

And this is what you willingly choose over the knowledge that is true, because you've already decided not to choose Him, but would rather choose the god of your own mind.

Sad, just sad really...

And very much regrettable/unfortunate...

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I can tell you right now that I am among one of the last to be sent, and that if after this you still do not believe, then there is no longer any more hope left for you after this, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I am also nearing my retirement from this also, as God is going to take me on/down a different path after this, so there is that to consider as well, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Astrid]

Ok, I'll tell you right now that I follow logic, and reason. And let's have an exercise in logic and/or reason for a minute, shall we...?

I'm going to have to ask everyone to lay all biases of any kind aside for a minute, ok, and follow along with me...

Is it logical or reasonable to assume that everything in the Old and New testaments was completely made up, or all was a lie, etc...?

Leaving aside your own personal biases in your own inability to accept the "supernatural" for a minute, is it logical to believe that they were all made up, or that the people were lying about all of it, etc...? Because I don't think it is logical to believe or assume that, etc... It is a lot more logical that they were reporting the truth about the power they witnessed, etc, and that they were only recording "history", etc, in the OT, with the plagues of Egypt, and other "stuff" that happened supernaturally in the OT, and in the NT, with Jesus, with all that he did that was quote/unquote "supernatural", etc... Logic says that, for one, these creatures or beings actually existed, God in the OT, and Jesus in the New, etc, and also that there is a power that exists that can do these things, and that these people were not lying, and that there is no way they could have invented this, or just made this all up, and that they were only recording "history", etc... So, you are left with a conundrum, and that is the evidence that there is power that can do these things that actually exists, etc... And I'd like to propose that this is a power comes from God the Spirit, who was God in the OT, or who is God the Holy Spirit in the NT now, who has always been here from the very beginning, but is not God the Heavenly Father that Jesus reasoned also exists, etc... But, this One (God the Spirit) does have power, etc, but just not power over man's choices, or his (man's) supposed free will, etc...

In the beginning, this One started out with whatever He said or spoke, always coming to pass or always happening just like He said, etc, so, there was no reason at all for Him to think or assume otherwise, etc, that is, until man came along, etc, and then, after that for the very first time, was his very first experience with things not always happening the way He laid out, or things not always happening or going according to the way He assumed, or always in line with His expectations, or plans, etc...

Plans had to change after the fall and after man in the Garden first disobeyed, etc, but it has always been His plan to have or created a race of people, or a society or nation of people, that would rule, eventually peacefully, over all others in the earth, and this was what He has been trying to do since the beginning, and all throughout the OT, and at every step along the way, and whenever plans had to change or be altered along the way, etc...

They all ended up in failure however, and the need to enact the plan of Jesus Christ having to come, became necessary, or needed to be instituted, etc...

So, He impregnated Mary with His own essence, or seed, in order to give birth to Jesus, etc... This was not a plan He wanted to always have happen always, but it became absolutely necessary, etc...

He showed Abraham the possibility of this might needing to happen, and Abraham understood why it should not be any Father's first choice, without having at first tried absolutely everything else first, etc...

The anguish the man Jesus would have to go through having to come to the realizations and truths he would have to come to, would bring both of them a lot of great anguish, and a lot of hell and great pain, etc... And it is what I talked about earlier with Jesus, sometime between the ages of twelve and thirty, knowing that there was another Father, or higher or greater God than God in the OT, who was also his Father, but that there was also another higher One, who was also his and our Father, etc... The hell this would bring both of them was neither of them's first choice, but it did become absolutely necessary, etc...

Jesus came to know all of what he had to do in his role as the Messiah, etc, and it wasn't all very pretty or at first very welcomed, etc, but he did do it, and he did it all, and did it all perfectly in or by the end of it, etc... He showed us that higher Father in himself, while at the same time trying his best not to betray his other Father that he also knew and had a very deep relationship with, etc, (they talked all the time, or the whole entire time, etc), anyway, and in so doing, sacrificed himself, and paid the ultimate price, forever paving the way for possible salvation, if each man each individually so chooses, etc, of us all, etc...

God in the OT did actually exist, for this is where all the power comes from, but He was not the highest of greatest, and did not always and at all times, always absolutely know all always, etc...

So it was necessary for Him to learn, both through failure in the OT, and from Jesus his Son, personally, in the New, etc, after which He changed in the way He dealt with/handled the rest of mankind, etc...

This is the One that is still here now, and that we can now have a personal relationship with now just like Jesus did now, etc, for we are the temples now, and we can be reconciled to that One now, without having to be completely free of all sin now, because that's what Jesus changed by all of what he did in the NT, and the NC now, etc... We can have Him talking to us now, and be a primary voice inside or heads now, etc... If you would like, or if you want Him to now, etc... But you do have to first come to know Him first, etc... And what I am right now telling you right now should with help that now, etc... I hear Him quite a bit now... Do you, or do you want (Him) to, etc...?

God Bless!

Not all is completely made up

 

[Neogaia777]

Not all is completely made up

What about the supernatural?

 

[Neogaia777]

@Estrid

I'll keep my words short, and less deep/long/involved until you respond, k.

Or throughout this conversation until you respond first, k.

Giving you a chance to respond first, ok.

I still do have "some patience left" after all, ok.

 

[grasping the after wind]

No he hasn't? Or else he wouldn't tell you,"But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also"

I don't see how what you have posted shows that God has not clearly stated his disapproval of murder. One can disapprove of murder while also telling one's followers to passively accept harms done to them.

 

[Astrid]

I don't see how what you have posted shows that God has not clearly stated his disapproval of murder. One can disapprove of murder while also telling one's followers to passively accept harms done to them.

So define murder

 

[grasping the after wind]

That's exactly the point I was trying to make in the OP. Salvation is not a 'free gift', and to try to pretend it is is disengenuous. To qualify for salvation you need to believe in Jesus. Fail to believe, then many think you are headed for eternal torment in Hell. That is about as coercive as a bargain can get.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I wonder how disingenuous your Best Wishes might be when addressed to someone you claim is disingenuous?
There are no qualifications for salvation. Nothing anyone does, no bargain anyone tries to make, will save a person. Can a person deceive God and be saved by pretending to believe in Jesus? I don't think that makes sense. I know there are a lot of people that really like the idea of those they dislike suffering an eternity of physical torment in Hell, but I have no evidence to suggest that escaping the kind of eternal torment as they or Dante imagine is what salvation is all about. The Bible is actually not all that clear about what happens to those that decide they would prefer to reject what Jesus offers than accept it. If one believes that without Jesus' intervention, they will face eternal torment in Hell what would motivate them to disbelieve in Jesus? That also would make no sense. If one doesn't believe that there is a reason to fear such eternal torment, then where is this bargain you speak of. Who would make such a bargain. Either one already believes and accepts salvation as a free gift based on an already existing faith or one disbelieves and sees no need to negotiate an unnecessary bargain. Only a person that already believes that Jesus holds the key to their eternal destination would consider that those that do not believe are somehow being harmed by not being included in salvation.