The 'coercive bargain' theory of Christianity.

[Neogaia777]

I doubt that any of these "butts" will be truly logical, or reasonable at this point, or free of any of the more "human emotional considerations" at this point, etc, but I guess "we'll see", right?

God Bless!

@2PhiloVoid

They would have to say that the Jesus recorded/reported in the Bible did not at all exist, and never ever did one true real miracle at all, and no not even one ever at all ever, to at this point deny that that kind of power or ability exists at this point, etc, but I guess "we'll see", right...?

I'm waiting to see what they come up with, etc...

God Bless!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I doubt that any of these "butts" will be truly logical, or reasonable at this point, or free of any of the more "human emotional considerations" at this point, etc, but I guess "we'll see", right?

God Bless!

Yeah, "we'll see." Because as Jesus said, for spiritual reasons that affect ongoing epistemic discernments:

Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. ​

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yep.

In this cynical old world (or cynical old me), one doesn't expect consistency. So, good on you and have a 'like'.

 

[Astrid]

You didn't ask me to find some legal definition in a specific locality that I don't necessarily agree with. You asked me for a definition. I gave the definition that I find most apt and that I personally use for the word murder. I'm not arguing any points from anyone's POV but my own. Therefore, my arguments necessarily hinge on my own definition of a word not some legal one in England or Texas. If, when asked, I substituted a definition different definition than the one I actually use because some legislative body, or court, or administrator, or autocrat defined it differently than my own, I would be misleading you as to what I actually believe murder to be. I think it is incumbent upon me to be honest about what I believe when expressing myself to others in these forums.

Whatever

 

[Strivax]

...from the looks of the intended semantics of your last few posts, I'd interpret them to mean that....you've thoroughly misunderstood all that I've had to say thus far.

But these days, what with all of the philosophical confusion and inconsistent praxes which exists and float about like miasma in the air, I'm not surprised in the least. No, I'm not surprised at all.

If you didn't quite understand what I was implying with my little 'fire' hyperbole, you can always feel free to ask me to clarify its meaning rather than dump on me some invalid interpretation of what it is you think I meant. Does this sound like a possible alternative to what you've thus far said as a repost to me? I think it does; a bit of proactively applied hermeneutical acumen can benefit everyone, really.

MY point is this: God as Creator and Sovereign has the right to be coercive to some measure over His Own creation. But since we've been severely disaffected by this or that dictator during the last 100 years or so, most folks are conditioned to have a knee-jerk reaction to the mere idea of God's Sovereignty because they are now trained to see the past anachronistically through a post Hitlerian, post Stalin/Mao/Pol Pot, post 9/11 lense. That's a shame really. It's also a logical error of conflation where equivalation isn't due and can't actually be validated except perforce upon today's various forms of modern emotional pleading (and by ignoring a host of other ethical and meta-ethical issues----------------------------which of course is all too easily done).

And so, now, the Old Testament "god" is assumed (out of hand, typically) to be morally tainted and tyrannical-----even an ill-begotten terrorist, depending on which brain-banging atheist or anti-Christian you ask.

Of course, God has the right to be coercive. Just as any dicatator has the right (in the sense that might makes right), to be coercive. My question is, would a wholly, infinitely good God exercise that right?

So, I am not actually sure I appreciate your objection. Do you believe those who believe in Jesus as Messiah get to go to heaven? Do you believe those who don't, do not risk Hell? Or do you just not think these alternatives amount to a coercive arrangment?

Best wishes, Strivax.

PS. I hope you and yours all had a great Christmas, and are now all set up for the New Year. S.

 

[Neogaia777]

@Strivax

God is not a dictator like Hitler or Stalin just because he has some very basic requirements that are not that difficult to believe, or choose, in oder to get into Heaven.

And after some of the kind of things I have said, and that some others like me have said/been saying for a long time, etc, the only reason for not choosing the right choice or making the right decision that you know is right, etc, is only because of something on the inside of you that is very, very selfish, and that is evil, and is wicked, and is very, very stupid and foolish at this point, etc.

But if you want to say God is wicked for leaving those kinds of people out, (or not being able to save them), then be my guest, etc.

He is not trying to coerce you, but is only trying to convince you of the truth, and beyond that, leaves the choice up to you, etc.

And that is not wicked, but is only "love", and is because he loves you, etc, but He has never had any kind of power over man's will, so you/me/we must "choose", etc.

I am talking about God the Spirit here, etc.

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

@Strivax

If He didn't try to "convince", "any of us", etc, then everyone would be lost, probably, etc...

And I think you are confusing trying to coerce, or being coercive, with attempts at trying to convince, or being convincing, etc...

The requirements were not or are not set by Him, (God the Spirit), but have been known/set by God the Father for from the beginning of time, etc...

If anything, it's that One you should be looking at and questioning, should you dare, etc...

For it is that One who created man with a rebellious will that would constantly frustrate God the Spirit and God the Son for from the very beginning of time, etc, and it is also that One that created some to be purposely and forever saved or kept, and some to be purposely and forever lost, for from the very beginning of time, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Strivax]

I notice you have not really attempted to answer the questions I put in my previous post, @Neogaia777. Let us first establish whether Traditional Christianity does, or does not, posit a coercive system, which those questions were designed to elicit. Once we have arrived at that conclusion, we may proceed from there as seems profitable and enlightening.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Of course, God has the right to be coercive. Just as any dicatator has the right (in the sense that might makes right), to be coercive. My question is, would a wholly, infinitely good God exercise that right?

Yes, the God of the Bible who is Eternally Holy, Just, Merciful, Loving and STRONG can (and should) exercise His prerogative as Creator and Lord of His own Creation to sort the wheat from the chaff.

So, I am not actually sure I appreciate your objection. Do you believe those who believe in Jesus as Messiah get to go to heaven? Do you believe those who don't, do not risk Hell? Or do you just not think these alternatives amount to a coercive arrangment?

I'm not sure I'm clear on exactly what you're attempting to find out. Maybe I've misunderstood the referential direction of your inquiry.

As for Eschatology, I believe Christians gain Eternal Life in Jesus Christ; and anti-Christians do not receive Eternal Life. End of story.

Best wishes, Strivax.

PS. I hope you and yours all had a great Christmas, and are now all set up for the New Year. S.

And I wish the same for you, Strivax. May you have a blessed year in 2023!

 

[Strivax]

I'm not sure I'm clear on exactly what you're attempting to find out. Maybe I've misunderstood the referential direction of your inquiry.

As for Eschatology, I believe Christians gain Eternal Life in Jesus Christ; and anti-Christians do not receive Eternal Life. End of story.

Hmmm. It's really quite simple. Believe in Jesus: result: Heaven. Carrot. Disbelieve in Jesus: result Hell. Stick. Is this, or is this not, a coercive system? I do not think I can be plainer than that. If you still don't understand, I'm afraid your lack of powers of comprehension defeat my powers of explanation.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hmmm. It's really quite simple. Believe in Jesus: result: Heaven. Carrot. Disbelieve in Jesus: result Hell. Stick. Is this, or is this not, a coercive system? I do not think I can be plainer than that. If you still don't understand, I'm afraid your lack of powers of comprehension defeat my powers of explanation.

Best wishes, Strivax.

It does have a coercieve aspect to it. Yes. But despite your contestations, I don't think your objection matters that much to God.

It's that simple. It's a point on which I hope you can come to comprehend.

It just requires a little bit more education on your part. That's all.

 

[Neogaia777]

I notice you have not really attempted to answer the questions I put in my previous post, @Neogaia777. Let us first establish whether Traditional Christianity does, or does not, posit a coercive system, which those questions were designed to elicit. Once we have arrived at that conclusion, we may proceed from there as seems profitable and enlightening.

Best wishes, Strivax.

How do you define that which is "coercive", etc...?

Because in the way that you are using it here I could think of a whole host of other words (or thoughts or concepts or ideas) that could be put in it's place, and still mean pretty much the same thing, and that is the problem here, etc...?

It could also mean "enticement", for example, and in this case it is only "encouraging" you (which is yet another word I could use here) to do/choose what is right based on a system of a very great reward, or else a very dire consequence, etc...

Your using the word "coercive" makes it sound like it is being forced, which is the furtherest thing from the truth here, as no one is being forced into anything here, but the choice is entirely up to you, etc...

Because just simply telling the truth about it is not forcing anyone into anything either way, etc...

Would you rather God not tell you the truth in this case, etc...?

I suspect the main thing that is causing you to do this is only with having a quote/unquote "hell" as a negative consequence, etc, and I don't really blame you really, as for that thought/idea/consequence has very frequently turned many a people off, and stumbled many, so that it sometimes seems to them like the decision is being forced, etc, but, as I already said, it is quite the opposite, and is actually the furtherest thing from the truth, etc...

Everyone is 100% completely free to choose "hell" if they want, etc...

And just simply telling the truth about both possible outcomes doesn't mean a thing, as not one single thing is being forced upon anyone here, etc...

God Bless!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How do you define that which is "coercive", etc...?

Neo, see this link to one of Strivax's other recent threads. I think it'll explain his political and spiritual outlook.

21st Century Christianity: A brief manifesto for our age

On another forum, I lamented that Christianity was being left behind, and as it is currently consituted, stood to collapse into irrelevance and obscurity, with none but a few dinosaur conservatives left muttering to each other in corners about how evil the world is. So, I proclaimed, the 21st...

www.christianforums.com

This is what he "means." He's a manifesto kind of guy ...

 

[Neogaia777]

Neo, see this link to one of Strivax's other recent threads. I think it'll explain his political and spiritual outlook.

21st Century Christianity: A brief manifesto for our age

On another forum, I lamented that Christianity was being left behind, and as it is currently consituted, stood to collapse into irrelevance and obscurity, with none but a few dinosaur conservatives left muttering to each other in corners about how evil the world is. So, I proclaimed, the 21st...

www.christianforums.com

This is what he "means."

I'll read/look into it later, I'm in the middle of playing a video game, and just took a moment to check this, and post my reply, but I will look into it later, thanks for the info though, I will check it later...

God Bless!

 

[Astrid]

Hmmm. It's really quite simple. Believe in Jesus: result: Heaven. Carrot. Disbelieve in Jesus: result Hell. Stick. Is this, or is this not, a coercive system? I do not think I can be plainer than that. If you still don't understand, I'm afraid your lack of powers of comprehension defeat my powers of explanation.

Best wishes, Strivax.

"Love me or I will kill you" is one
summary I've heard.
Another, referring to the corruption of
Earth and even according to some, the
whole universe after the fall...
" so God is perfect but everything he made is bad?"

That was my question. I don't recall the answer.

But I think Christianity just has to make more sense than that.

 

[Neogaia777]

How do you define that which is "coercive", etc...?

Because in the way that you are using it here I could think of a whole host of other words (or thoughts or concepts or ideas) that could be put in it's place, and still mean pretty much the same thing, and that is the problem here, etc...?

It could also mean "enticement", for example, and in this case it is only "encouraging" you (which is yet another word I could use here) to do/choose what is right based on a system of a very great reward, or else a very dire consequence, etc...

Your using the word "coercive" makes it sound like it is being forced, which is the furtherest thing from the truth here, as no one is being forced into anything here, but the choice is entirely up to you, etc...

Because just simply telling the truth about it is not forcing anyone into anything either way, etc...

Would you rather God not tell you the truth in this case, etc...?

I suspect the main thing that is causing you to do this is only with having a quote/unquote "hell" as a negative consequence, etc, and I don't really blame you really, as for that thought/idea/consequence has very frequently turned many a people off, and stumbled many, so that it sometimes seems to them like the decision is being forced, etc, but, as I already said, it is quite the opposite, and is actually the furtherest thing from the truth, etc...

Everyone is 100% completely free to choose "hell" if they want, etc...

And just simply telling the truth about both possible outcomes doesn't mean a thing, as not one single thing is being forced upon anyone here, etc...

God Bless!

@Strivax

Fear does not get in my way, or stumble me personally, etc, but I just want the good that I want, and that is what has the most bearing or consequence on what I choose/believe personally, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

"Love me or I will kill you" is one
summary I've heard.
Another, referring to the corruption of
Earth and even according to some, the
whole universe after the fall...
" so God is perfect but everything he made is bad?"

That was my question. I don't recall the answer.

But I think Christianity just has to make more sense than that.

It's more like "If you love or are truly loving, you will not be able to help yourself from truly loving him and others or your fellow man/human in or by the end", etc...

But I understand what you mean about most other Christians ...

And God the Father made us to come to the ultimate higher and greater good, in or by the end, etc...

Well, most of us or some of us anyway, etc...

But He did have to make us at first bad, or to have to experience some bad at first before He could do that in or by the end, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If you can bring yourself to love Jesus, then that is a start, and is where you/me/everybody must start, and maybe or hopefully you can come to know and love the other Two after that in or by the end, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

If you can bring yourself to love Jesus, then that is a start, and is where you/me/everybody must start, and maybe or hopefully you can come to know and love the other Two after that in or by the end, etc...

God Bless!

Beyond loving Jesus, and putting faith in most of what he said, (the basic gospel message, etc), I've been told that the only requirements after that, are only those which we put upon ourselves each individually, etc, but I don't know exactly how much truth there is to that exactly, since no one knows how God is going to judge each individual person each individually in or by the end, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Strivax]

It does have a coercieve aspect to it. Yes.

Good. I am glad we are agreed thus far: that Christianity posits a coercive system of social control.

Perhaps we can now move on to my next question: Would a perfectly, infinitely good God institute such a system? (especially since, in all other regards, He seems to place a very high premium indeed on our freedom?)

Seems to me you have two choices: yes He would, in which case you need some sort of an apologetic to explain Him, or, no He wouldn't, in which case we need to rethink Christianity.

Best wishes, Strivax.