The Church would have been better off without the Reformation.

[SpyderByte]

How many folks watched the debate? I did.

 

[South Bound]

The truth is that the Church has undergone daily reformation from the day of Pentecost. That's because humans run the Church on earth. Every day, every member of the Church that is alive has sinned against someone, and is in need of reformation, therefore the Church needs constant reformation.

The truth is that the Church was undergoing Reformation at the time when Martin Luther, and others of his kind, demanded reformation. So, what Luther wanted was what he was getting, just not quick enough for him.

So then why don't we see the results of that Reformation now?

 

[South Bound]

How many folks watched the debate? I did.

I didn't know about it, in spite of being a frequent listener to The Dividing Line. I'll have to catch it online somewhere.

 

[SpyderByte]

I didn't know about it, in spite of being a frequent listener to The Dividing Line. I'll have to catch it online somewhere.

It's supposed to be released on Youtube eventually I guess. It kinda fell off into a discussion rather than a debate after the first 45 minutes or so. Either way, it was interesting and informational to listen to.

 

[South Bound]

It's supposed to be released on Youtube eventually I guess. It kinda fell off into a discussion rather than a debate after the first 45 minutes or so. Either way, it was interesting and informational to listen to.

Well, we know it won't be released on Catholic Answers.

To be honest, I'm shocked that he found a Catholic to debate him, given Scott Hahn's ongoing cowardice.

 

[SpyderByte]

Well, we know it won't be released on Catholic Answers.

To be honest, I'm shocked that he found a Catholic to debate him, given Tim Staples' ongoing cowardice.

From what I understand, and I could be wrong, I think Revelation TV approached White about the debate. So Tom Norris may have initiated the debate.

Eta, according to Mr. Staples, he won both debates they already had hands down.

 

[South Bound]

From what I understand, and I could be wrong, I think Revelation TV approached White about the debate. So Tom Norris may have initiated the debate.

Eta, according to Mr. Staples, he won both debates they already had hands down.

I beg your pardon. I meant Scott Hahn, not Tim Staples.

I don't know if you're aware of the story, but Catholic Answers refused to release the debates for nearly four years. It wasn't until somebody got ahold of them and released them on the internet that Catholic Answers decided they should post them.

 

[SpyderByte]

I beg your pardon. I meant Scott Hahn, not Tim Staples.

I don't know if you're aware of the story, but Catholic Answers refused to release the debates for nearly four years. It wasn't until somebody got ahold of them and released them on the internet that Catholic Answers decided they should post them.

Lol yeah I'd heard about it. Don't think I've seen it though. Gotta link?

 

[South Bound]

Lol yeah I'd heard about it. Don't think I've seen it though. Gotta link?

I don't. I would assume it's on Youtube.

 

[SpyderByte]

I don't. I would assume it's on Youtube.

Eh, I'll take a look

 

[Albion]

So then why don't we see the results of that Reformation now?

The look and feel of the Roman Catholic Church of today would be unrecognizable if it were not that she finally--after about 450 years--had taken on, approved, adopted most of the demands of the Protestant Reformers from the 16th century.Worship in the language of the people:


The laity allowed to play roles in the worship service.

Congregational singing (and in a non-Gregorian chant style).

Holy Communion in both kinds (bread and wine).

More frequent Communion by the laity.

Bible study by the laity.

The actions and words of the priest at Mass to be seen and heard by the people.

Etc.

 

[SpyderByte]

I don't. I would assume it's on Youtube.

No joy. It's not there...

 

[South Bound]

The look and feel of the Roman Catholic Church of today would be unrecognizable if it were not that she finally--after about 450 years--had taken on, approved, adopted most of the demands of the Protestant Reformers from the 16th century.Worship in the language of the people:


The laity allowed to play roles in the worship service.

Congregational singing (and in a non-Gregorian chant style).

Holy Communion in both kinds (bread and wine).

More frequent Communion by the laity.

Bible study by the laity.

The actions and words of the priest at Mass to be seen and heard by the people.

Etc.

Do Catholics still go to Purgatory? Do they still receive infused righteousness? Do they still have to perform works to be saved?

((Note to mods: Please note that I am NOT saying Catholics are not Christians, only that Catholic doctrine has not changed.))

 

[Albion]

Well now, I didn't say that every reform that was needed has been accomplished, only that the church of today would be unrecognizable--and unwanted--by Catholics if it had not finally adopted a long list of reforms that the Protestants had wanted almost five centuries ago...and which the Vatican stoutly opposed.

And as for Purgatory, of course Catholics no longer go there because they never did go there. There isn't any Purgatory. However, it's more meaningful to note that today's Catholics don't believe in it and so the RCC is phasing it out, just as it did earlier with Limbo.

 

[Root of Jesse]

More argument from silence RoJ? That's a logical fallacy. Oh, and some think they know where the apostles were buried, but it isn't a hard and fast fact. Either way, we don't know where the vast bulk of humanity was buried, it doesn't mean they were all assumed. Very weak RoJ. Very weak.

Not weak at all. We do know. The ancient Christians revered the apostles enough to remember where they were killed, and go back to the site later to gather them. They saw them die, too. Nobody saw Mary die. Nobody knows where she's buried.

 

[Root of Jesse]

It would have been better off without the Great Schism AND the Reformation. I often wonder if there would have been a Reformation without a Schism...

As far as the Reformation goes, I wish the Roman Church would have been reformed from within rather than without, but the power and arrogance of the Roman Church didn't allow for that. The Roman Church admits that it was corrupt and needed to address several problems, which, thankfully, they have, but too little too late. Pushing Luther away at the time created a devastating splinter. Now we have all sorts of bozo, whacky denominations and beliefs, and millions of Christians that have been so indoctrinated in false teachings that they will never accept historic Christianity.

The "too little too late part, I have to disagree with. The Church forgot, and needed to remember, that every day is a Reformation. Also that temporal power is unimportant.

 

[SpyderByte]

Not weak at all. We do know. The ancient Christians revered the apostles enough to remember where they were killed, and go back to the site later to gather them. They saw them die, too. Nobody saw Mary die. Nobody knows where she's buried.

An argument from silence is still a logical fallacy. But why am I bothering to say anything? Your "church" (as apostate as it is) claims it's true! 1900 years after the fact with no evidence whatsoever! Hey who can argue with that logic! I really don't care any more. There's only so many times you can kick a dog before it leaves. I'm just biting before I go...

 

[Root of Jesse]

Are you familiar with the miracle of Loreto?

Miracles are not required beliefs. You can be a good Catholic and not believe any Eucharistic miracle. Or any miracle for that matter.

 

[Root of Jesse]

So then why don't we see the results of that Reformation now?

We do. That the Church didn't destroy itself from within is part of the proof.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The look and feel of the Roman Catholic Church of today would be unrecognizable if it were not that she finally--after about 450 years--had taken on, approved, adopted most of the demands of the Protestant Reformers from the 16th century.Worship in the language of the people:


The laity allowed to play roles in the worship service.

Congregational singing (and in a non-Gregorian chant style).

Holy Communion in both kinds (bread and wine).

More frequent Communion by the laity.

Bible study by the laity.

The actions and words of the priest at Mass to be seen and heard by the people.

Etc.

Were those all in the 95 theses?