The Church would have been better off without the Reformation.

[SpyderByte]

Join us for a Live debate this Wednesday eve at 21.00hrs BST. Speaking for the motion is Rev.Dr Norris and speaking against the motion is Dr James White.

http://www.revelationtv.com/rnews/entry/the-reformation-debate-this-wednesday-at-21.00hrs

An interesting debate. Oh and that time is 4 pm eastern standard time for those of us on this side of the pond. I thought we could do a running commentary of the debate here, and discuss the notion. Gimme a sec and I'll post a poll.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The truth is that the Church has undergone daily reformation from the day of Pentecost. That's because humans run the Church on earth. Every day, every member of the Church that is alive has sinned against someone, and is in need of reformation, therefore the Church needs constant reformation.

The truth is that the Church was undergoing Reformation at the time when Martin Luther, and others of his kind, demanded reformation. So, what Luther wanted was what he was getting, just not quick enough for him.

 

[SpyderByte]

Hafta give the opening round to Dr. White. The father seems a little out of his depth so far. Let's see if he can find his legs?

 

[SpyderByte]

Father Norris just doesn't seem very prepared...

 

[SpyderByte]

Interesting. Father Norris says that the bodily assumption was also a majority vote of the laity of the time. How does that make it infallible? I thought only the pope and magesterium could do that?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Who is Fr. Norris? Do you think he speaks with any authority? Regarding bodily assumption of Mary, can you show us where her grave and bones are? We know where many of the apostles are buried, you'd think we'd know where Mary, the mother of God was buried if she was buried at all...

 

[SpyderByte]

Who is Fr. Norris? Do you think he speaks with any authority? Regarding bodily assumption of Mary, can you show us where her grave and bones are? We know where many of the apostles are buried, you'd think we'd know where Mary, the mother of God was buried if she was buried at all...

More argument from silence RoJ? That's a logical fallacy. Oh, and some think they know where the apostles were buried, but it isn't a hard and fast fact. Either way, we don't know where the vast bulk of humanity was buried, it doesn't mean they were all assumed. Very weak RoJ. Very weak.

 

[SpyderByte]

Well, that debate turned more into a discussion rather than a formal debate, and though lopsided heavily, it was very cordial and respectful. I applaud both men for their behaviour and Christ-like love!

 

[yogosans14]

I don't know. The RCC at the time of Luther was so corrupt, but sadly now we have to many Denomnations who all disagree with one another on certain doctrines.

 

[Souldier]

THis is the answer, in my opinion. Dont look at the natural world. Look at that which is unseen. That is the fulness we seek.

 

[Cappadocious]

The truth is that the Church was undergoing Reformation at the time when Martin Luther, and others of his kind, demanded reformation. So, what Luther wanted was what he was getting, just not quick enough for him.

Rather, Martin Luther was a product of that very Roman Catholic reformation.

 

[football5680]

The reformation just created confusion and disunity within Christianity. Luther may have started with good intentions but he eventually just became convoluted and narcissistic. From the posting of the 95 theses to the end of his life his views changed dramatically and eventually the movement was simply a rebellion. In Luther's lifetime numerous denominations had already popped up and it simply got worse and worse thereafter.

 

[Souldier]

The reformation just created confusion and disunity within Christianity. Luther may have started with good intentions but he eventually just became convoluted and narcissistic. From the posting of the 95 theses to the end of his life his views changed dramatically and eventually the movement was simply a rebellion. In Luther's lifetime numerous denominations had already popped up and it simply got worse and worse thereafter.

Its not rebellion to walk away from RC. Its quite possible that RC walked away from what was given in the beginning. We must all look within ourself and look into the words of Christ and paul. Denominations are not the answer, RC is not the answer. Christ within is the answer. Just my opinion.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

It would have been better off without the Great Schism AND the Reformation. I often wonder if there would have been a Reformation without a Schism...

As far as the Reformation goes, I wish the Roman Church would have been reformed from within rather than without, but the power and arrogance of the Roman Church didn't allow for that. The Roman Church admits that it was corrupt and needed to address several problems, which, thankfully, they have, but too little too late. Pushing Luther away at the time created a devastating splinter. Now we have all sorts of bozo, whacky denominations and beliefs, and millions of Christians that have been so indoctrinated in false teachings that they will never accept historic Christianity.

 

[Souldier]

It would have been better off without the Great Schism AND the Reformation. I often wonder if there would have been a Reformation without a Schism...

As far as the Reformation goes, I wish the Roman Church would have been reformed from within rather than without, but the power and arrogance of the Roman Church didn't allow for that. The Roman Church admits that it was corrupt and needed to address several problems, which, thankfully, they have, but too little too late. Pushing Luther away at the time created a devastating splinter. Now we have all sorts of bozo, whacky denominations and beliefs, and millions of Christians that have been so indoctrinated in false teachings that they will never accept historic Christianity.

Historical Christianity is about seeking that which is not found on earth but only in heaven. There is a deep understanding that we find as we seek the kingdom of heaven. Its about holiness, that is about separating our self from this world. Why then do we argue over carnal things? Our life is hidden with Christ in heaven. We are taught to look at that which is hidden, unseen. We are taught to walk by faith not sight. Why are things like holy days and church buildings so important then? Why do we need a Pope or any teacher? Is not a teacher supposed to lead us to the spirit where we need no teacher but the spirit HImself?

Is that wacky?

 

[ebia]

More argument from silence RoJ? That's a logical fallacy. Oh, and some think they know where the apostles were buried, but it isn't a hard and fast fact. Either way, we don't know where the vast bulk of humanity was buried, it doesn't mean they were all assumed. Very weak RoJ. Very weak.

Well, not quite.
An argument from silence is weak, unless silence would be highly unexpected.

You'd expect many early claims for the burial place of Mary, as there are for most of the apostles.
It is striking that there's a complete lack of any.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Well, not quite.
An argument from silence is weak, unless silence would be highly unexpected.

You'd expect many early claims for the burial place of Mary, as there are for most of the apostles.
It is striking that there's a complete lack of any.

Interesting view here. The various skulls of John the Baptist did not appear very early in the record and most were authenticated as various relics were brought to Europe from the Holy Land during the Crusades. On another note, what do you think about Loreto, Italy?

 

[Souldier]

Interesting view here. The various skulls of John the Baptist did not appear very early in the record and most were authenticated as various relics were brought to Europe from the Holy Land during the Crusades. On another note, what do you think about Loreto, Italy?

I was a bit lost earlier when you talked about Johns seven heads. I think i see what you mean now.

 

[ebia]

Interesting view here. The various skulls of John the Baptist did not appear very early in the record and most were authenticated as various relics were brought to Europe from the Holy Land during the Crusades. On another note, what do you think about Loreto, Italy?

Eh?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Eh?

Are you familiar with the miracle of Loreto?