The church is doing more to keep people single, than to bring them together?

ZephBonkerer

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This sounds like the typical evolution of those who wind up those "cautionary" tales of stepping from their church social circles. The usual story is kid is raised Christian, kid is in high school goes with family to church routinely, kid gets accepted to a college, he goes off into the world and college and he's like you, playing poker, (with me its board games with friends, lol), salsa or whatever (just making a point)...you know, normal recreation activities that have the "appearance of evil"

I might have guessed. I was unchurched throughout my childhood, so I may have a blind spot towards the informal pressures on someone who never knew any secular society.

Those people who cite "the appearance of evil" are the Karens of the Christian community with nothing else better to do with their lives than to mind their own business.

I kinda made light of it. "Sheesh, people! The strippers we hired didn't show, and we were all outta weed, so we had to do SOMETHING! We had beer and cards, so we settled for that."

I suppose the Karens don't really appreciate my humor.

Shoot, salsa/bachata might be misconstrued by busy-body Christians as overtly sexual in nature, with the hips moving and the "erotic" dance moves.

I admit some of it took some getting used to for me. But that was me learning the ways of a new culture.

I only do the more sensual moves with someone I know is OK with it. I never assume that they are. I have a style of bachata that is more open and playful, so in many cases that issue doesn't even come up.

Believe you me, I immediately dissociate myself with those "appearance of evil" types...with this Halloween coming up, same situation. People get a little nuts believing that trick or treating in costumes has an "appearance of evil"...and shut their doors to kids.

A rule of thumb regarding the "appearance of evil": if someone of ordinary intelligence has to guess where the appearance of evil is, chances are it's illusory.

Funny, those years your mentioned were the years where I live where singles Bible study groups were kind of prevalent. After church services, people would gather for singles Bible study, and then go out to eat after or do some recreational activity. These singles groups would eventually fizzle out after a couple of years. Losing popularity.

We did that stuff in our assembly too. I have some fond memories of Soul Calibur II on the Playstation2 with the guys. I never figured out what the girl people there did for fun. Talk about girl stuff, I guess.

Our college aged group had a good run, but it ran its course with me. In early 2005 (I was now 27), some of the others in the group got an idea to play Twister in public places for giggles. On the side of a busy road, in the elevator of the Oakridge Mall, places like that. And they filmed all of it. As I was watching the film, that's when I figured I'm getting a bit old to be hanging with college kids.

Oh, I remember in the 1980s how Dungeons and Dragons was demonized.

Same for heavy metal music.
 
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Miles

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Those people who cite "the appearance of evil" are the Karens of the Christian community with nothing else better to do with their lives than to mind their own business.


Oh, I remember in the 1980s how Dungeons and Dragons was demonized.

Another interpretation of avoiding "the appearance of evil", which I think has more of a Biblical foundation, is to avoid evil when it appears. If something is evil, then get away from it. God would rather we act rightly than simply "appear" to do the right thing.

The Karens are projecting. Although we should strive to be good witnesses, there isn't much we can do to prevent others from misreading and seeing evil where there is none. That's on them as it exists in their heads. It seems to me that people should feel free to salsa dance or whatever without the fear of being misjudged. Then again, if you can't do something without sinning then don't do it. Not because of how it might potentially appear to the faultfinders.

Speaking of which, I just looked up the term and stumbled across Jude 1:16
"These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage."


I also remember the "Satanic Panic" of the '80s. Thankfully, my parents weren't overly caught up in that, but I nevertheless managed to stumble across the Jack Chick tracts and other material just through being a kid at the time. Unfortunately, it tarnished whatever appeal Dungeons and Dragons might have had for me and it later felt too late to learn.
 
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ZephBonkerer

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Another interpretation of avoiding "the appearance of evil", which I think has more of a Biblical foundation, is to avoid evil when it appears. If something is evil, then get away from it. God would rather we act rightly than simply "appear" to do the right thing.

The way I apply 1 Thess 5:22 is usually with regard to maintaining neutrality and objectivity. If you are a judge, a financial auditor, or if you sit on the Board of Directors of a company, there would be safeguards in place to manage potential conflicts of interest. In financial dealings, this is especially true with respect to transactions involving related parties.

It's hard to have a decent standard of living in a society where nobody trusts those in authority to behave ethically and to not abuse their positions to enrich themselves in inappropriate ways.

To provide an obvious example: suppose a board member loaned their company a sum of money at 25% interest. Also suppose this company's finances were such that it was generating positive cash flow and could have easily gotten that loan at a much lower rate of interest. What is the purpose of this loan? Why is the interest rate so high? How does this loan benefit anyone other than the lender?

The Karens are projecting. Although we should strive to be good witnesses, there isn't much we can do to prevent others from misreading and seeing evil where there is none. That's on them as it exists in their heads. It seems to me that people should feel free to salsa dance or whatever without the fear of being misjudged. Then again, if you can't do something without sinning then don't do it. Not because of how it might potentially appear to the faultfinders.

Speaking of which, I just looked up the term and stumbled across Jude 1:16
"These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage."

There were times I would ask one of these Karens where the appearance of evil was. Most of the time they struggle to explain this in an objective manner and it's clear they are speaking out of their own personal bias. We all have our own biases - the test of character is how we manage these. I have a story about this in an online forum - I'll put it up later...

While there are times that sin may be present in nightclubs and other such places, it would not follow that these places are sinful per se. When I go to a nightclub or dance hall, I consider its overall vibe. Sin is going to have an adverse impact on the overall vibe of a place. You don't even have to be a believer to sense this adverse effect. You'll know it.

Some establishments are so trashy that you are all but presumed to be some kind of creep solely because you are male. That's just human nature: if a woman is approached by 10 creepy and inconsiderate guys before you approach her, she's going to have a barrier up.

Here in Cincinnati there are two Latin themed nightclubs that operate weekly. One has been in business for a while - it's an OK place if you go with people you know. A lot of people there just like to drink their drink and watch others dance - or only dance with people they already know. The other opened up recently - while they are open very late and have great food, there have been reports of fights and other security concerns. If the vibe is such that they are but one misunderstanding or slight provocation away from fists flying everywhere, something is very wrong.

The dance events held at a studio are the most ideal because people are there to dance. Sometimes I even drive to Columbus for dancing.

So the TLDR version: you can avoid environments where sin is pervasive simply by paying attention to the overall vibe.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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The way I apply 1 Thess 5:22 is usually with regard to maintaining neutrality and objectivity. If you are a judge, a financial auditor, or if you sit on the Board of Directors of a company, there would be safeguards in place to manage potential conflicts of interest. In financial dealings, this is especially true with respect to transactions involving related parties.

It's hard to have a decent standard of living in a society where nobody trusts those in authority to behave ethically and to not abuse their positions to enrich themselves in inappropriate ways.

To provide an obvious example: suppose a board member loaned their company a sum of money at 25% interest. Also suppose this company's finances were such that it was generating positive cash flow and could have easily gotten that loan at a much lower rate of interest. What is the purpose of this loan? Why is the interest rate so high? How does this loan benefit anyone other than the lender?



There were times I would ask one of these Karens where the appearance of evil was. Most of the time they struggle to explain this in an objective manner and it's clear they are speaking out of their own personal bias. We all have our own biases - the test of character is how we manage these. I have a story about this in an online forum - I'll put it up later...

While there are times that sin may be present in nightclubs and other such places, it would not follow that these places are sinful per se. When I go to a nightclub or dance hall, I consider its overall vibe. Sin is going to have an adverse impact on the overall vibe of a place. You don't even have to be a believer to sense this adverse effect. You'll know it.

Some establishments are so trashy that you are all but presumed to be some kind of creep solely because you are male. That's just human nature: if a woman is approached by 10 creepy and inconsiderate guys before you approach her, she's going to have a barrier up.

Here in Cincinnati there are two Latin themed nightclubs that operate weekly. One has been in business for a while - it's an OK place if you go with people you know. A lot of people there just like to drink their drink and watch others dance - or only dance with people they already know. The other opened up recently - while they are open very late and have great food, there have been reports of fights and other security concerns. If the vibe is such that they are but one misunderstanding or slight provocation away from fists flying everywhere, something is very wrong.

The dance events held at a studio are the most ideal because people are there to dance. Sometimes I even drive to Columbus for dancing.

So the TLDR version: you can avoid environments where sin is pervasive simply by paying attention to the overall vibe.
I went to a place called "Salsa Heat" in Orlando...it's more of a dance studio. You take lessons, then they clear the dance floor for actual salsa night. I'd sit on the side lines after the lesson, and watch them all tear up the dance floor...very impressive!

I'm trying to recall other anecdotal situations regarding some people that see "appearance of Evil" where I think there is none. I remember reaching out to along time friend that stopped playing certain video games (we are both avid gamers, I'm not much into it now)...he said he stopped playing Blizzard games because of demonic characters (World of Warcraft) was one of them. OH, and there was some trending video when Pokemon came out, where some Christians called them "pocket demons"

Its likes some Christians like to suck the fun out of peoples' lives lol

Then of course, is the upcoming Halloween holiday.

I had to kind of sever ties with a Christian friend because she took it to a whole new level. We were movie buddies (both movie buffs)...I recall her getting excited about the new Terminator movie with Sarah Connor returns. I was excited too. When the movie released, I asked her when she wanted to see it....she said she doesn't watch those kind of movies anymore (voilence, language, etc) I was like "oh". (That was disappointing). Now she's allabout Hallmark channel content.

SOme people go from one extreme to the next.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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The Karens are projecting. Although we should strive to be good witnesses, there isn't much we can do to prevent others from misreading and seeing evil where there is none. That's on them as it exists in their heads. It seems to me that people should feel free to salsa dance or whatever without the fear of being misjudged. Then again, if you can't do something without sinning then don't do it. Not because of how it might potentially appear to the faultfinders.

I think it's the Karens and fault finders that drive away some decent folks away from their church communities and seek places where there aren't Karens (yeah good luck with that).

I had a good female friend of mine that was going to grief support groups at a church, and when some of the married women there found out she was never married (she is in her 50s)....the made digs at her racy lifestyle...that not having ever been married, means your a harlot....that you go from boyfriend to boyfriend, without every marrying any of them.

Though they didn't use the word "Harlot", there were digs made at her.
 
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ZephBonkerer

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I think it's the Karens and fault finders that drive away some decent folks away from their church communities and seek places where there aren't Karens (yeah good luck with that).

I had a good female friend of mine that was going to grief support groups at a church, and when some of the married women there found out she was never married (she is in her 50s)....the made digs at her racy lifestyle...that not having ever been married, means your a harlot....that you go from boyfriend to boyfriend, without every marrying any of them.

Though they didn't use the word "Harlot", there were digs made at her.

When I was in college, I was exposed to a lot of brain-dead bigotry, hatred, and prejudice from people who loudly denounced bigotry, hatred, and prejudice. Most of these people were from the secular Left. So for a time, I considered conservative Christians as being above that kind of thing. I later learned that these things do not respect ideological borders.

I personally believe the Lord shielded me from most spiritual abuse until I reached a certain point in my spiritual maturity.
 
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ZephBonkerer

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I went to a place called "Salsa Heat" in Orlando...it's more of a dance studio. You take lessons, then they clear the dance floor for actual salsa night. I'd sit on the side lines after the lesson, and watch them all tear up the dance floor...very impressive!

I checked out Salsa Heat in Orlando online. That looks like a great place to visit. I think I'll do so at some point. They're currently holding a workshop with Danny Alicea. While I'm not certain of it, he may be the same person who visited us in Columbus OH last year to hold a few workshops. If that's the guy I'm thinking of, he's quite talented.


I had to kind of sever ties with a Christian friend because she took it to a whole new level. We were movie buddies (both movie buffs)...I recall her getting excited about the new Terminator movie with Sarah Connor returns. I was excited too. When the movie released, I asked her when she wanted to see it....she said she doesn't watch those kind of movies anymore (voilence, language, etc) I was like "oh". (That was disappointing). Now she's allabout Hallmark channel content.

SOme people go from one extreme to the next.

There are times I suspect it's a form of virtue signaling among Christians. I've seen those on the Secular Left make a show of supporting LGBT and other similar causes. Oftentimes I have suspected many of them did so just to look good to others in their community. I used to think Christians were above that kind of thing, but now I know better.

I can understand those who don't know the Lord acting in this manner, all virtue signaling and stuff. But I don't understand born again believers who do this stuff. We were bought at a price, were we not? It's really unnecessary - if you are walking close to the Lord and determined to pursue the Kingdom and its righteousness, those things will follow anyway.

If you are in a place where sin is rampant, you'll know. It will be pervasive. You can't ignore it. An example: many years ago (1998 I believe) I was at a party where people were really doing nothing but smoking weed and drinking. These people were not interesting to talk to, they were not fun to be around. There was just nothing enjoyable about this place, even though it was supposed to be a party. I went home after about 20 minutes of this. And I wasn't even saved then! (I came to a saving faith in 2000.)
 
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ThisIsMe123

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I checked out Salsa Heat in Orlando online. That looks like a great place to visit. I think I'll do so at some point. They're currently holding a workshop with Danny Alicea. While I'm not certain of it, he may be the same person who visited us in Columbus OH last year to hold a few workshops. If that's the guy I'm thinking of, he's quite talented.




There are times I suspect it's a form of virtue signaling among Christians. I've seen those on the Secular Left make a show of supporting LGBT and other similar causes. Oftentimes I have suspected many of them did so just to look good to others in their community. I used to think Christians were above that kind of thing, but now I know better.

I can understand those who don't know the Lord acting in this manner, all virtue signaling and stuff. But I don't understand born again believers who do this stuff. We were bought at a price, were we not? It's really unnecessary - if you are walking close to the Lord and determined to pursue the Kingdom and its righteousness, those things will follow anyway.

If you are in a place where sin is rampant, you'll know. It will be pervasive. You can't ignore it. An example: many years ago (1998 I believe) I was at a party where people were really doing nothing but smoking weed and drinking. These people were not interesting to talk to, they were not fun to be around. There was just nothing enjoyable about this place, even though it was supposed to be a party. I went home after about 20 minutes of this. And I wasn't even saved then! (I came to a saving faith in 2000.)

Yeah, she also hopped on this fasting thing to get closer to the Lord. Never even knew that was a thing.

Yeah, weed smoking, and it's ever more becoming the mainstream now. More and more people pushing more and more states for it to be for recreational use.

I grew up the son of a cop, so I'm biased against it.
 
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ZephBonkerer

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Anyway, I thought I would share another one for the "appearance of evil" file:

Back in 2021 I was active on MeWe, that's a social media platform for people who were not happy with Facebook. There were plenty of Christian groups there - and they had a real-time chat feature. In one of these groups a woman said Hi and posted a picture of herself. One of the Karen's gave this woman a hard time over her pants being too tight. Another Karen saw fit to chime in. The exchange went something like this:

Me: Why are you giving her a bad time? I find nothing wrong with this woman's attire.

Karen1: Perhaps you are being lustful.

Karen2: (Quotes 1 Thess 5:22)

Me: What appearance of evil are you speaking of?

Karen2: Read a real Bible!

Me: So you cannot explain where the appearance of evil is? Anybody can cut-and-paste Bible quotes, but the value is in the application of God's Word.

Analysis: These two are the worst kind of Karens. Some people who misuse 1 Thess 5:22 are simply operating out of some personal bias. But these Karens were actively evasive in answering a simple question. Not only that, they slandered my motives. I took this as a tip-off that I was dealing with some controlling personalities. My track record in getting along with the controlling type is not very good.

Edit: I'm no longer active on MeWe because in large part, the quality of the people that are active there is something I have found lacking. I have better things to do with my time than to deal with trolls, frauds, virtue signalers, and people who talk at each other with empty memes rather than interacting in a meaningful way. I later saw the Christian groups as featuring the dregs of the Christian world.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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Anyway, I thought I would share another one for the "appearance of evil" file:

Back in 2021 I was active on MeWe, that's a social media platform for people who were not happy with Facebook. There were plenty of Christian groups there - and they had a real-time chat feature. In one of these groups a woman said Hi and posted a picture of herself. One of the Karen's gave this woman a hard time over her pants being too tight. Another Karen saw fit to chime in. The exchange went something like this:

Me: Why are you giving her a bad time? I find nothing wrong with this woman's attire.

Karen1: Perhaps you are being lustful.

Karen2: (Quotes 1 Thess 5:22)

Me: What appearance of evil are you speaking of?

Karen2: Read a real Bible!

Me: So you cannot explain where the appearance of evil is? Anybody can cut-and-paste Bible quotes, but the value is in the application of God's Word.

Analysis: These two are the worst kind of Karens. Some people who misuse 1 Thess 5:22 are simply operating out of some personal bias. But these Karens were actively evasive in answering a simple question. Not only that, they slandered my motives. I took this as a tip-off that I was dealing with some controlling personalities. My track record in getting along with the controlling type is not very good.

Edit: I'm no longer active on MeWe because in large part, the quality of the people that are active there is something I have found lacking. I have better things to do with my time than to deal with trolls, frauds, virtue signalers, and people who talk at each other with empty memes rather than interacting in a meaningful way. I later saw the Christian groups as featuring the dregs of the Christian world.

I saw this meme posted that's relevant lol


Never rush to marry someone because you met in church,

Church is like a hospital, not all the patients are responding to treatment
 
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DragonFox91

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If we honestly believe that’s the problem, we need address it with our church’s pastor or someone w/ some respect who has a voice in the church. Otherwise are just making an excuse & believing a lie.

TRUTH
 
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ZephBonkerer

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If we honestly believe that’s the problem, we need address it with our church’s pastor or someone w/ some respect who has a voice in the church. Otherwise are just making an excuse & believing a lie.

TRUTH

Believe what's the problem? Can you clarify?

And what would they be making an excuse for? I don't quite follow. I'm trying to grasp your point within this context.
 
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DragonFox91

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Believe what's the problem? Can you clarify?

And what would they be making an excuse for? I don't quite follow. I'm trying to grasp your point within this context.
Simply sitting & whining on a message board doesn’t accomplish anything.......although perhaps God could use it to motivate someone whining in their despair. Listen to women on sites like this. What do they say? They're tired of the good men whining & not doing anything.
 
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ZephBonkerer

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Simply sitting & whining on a message board doesn’t accomplish anything.......although perhaps God could use it to motivate someone whining in their despair. Listen to women on sites like this. What do they say? They're tired of the good men whining & not doing anything.

Who is sitting around and whining? There is value in understanding cultural trends, particularly in the Church. So no, we are not just whining. We are gaining an understanding of the environment in which we are dealing with.

If there is some factor that makes a church assembly an other-than-ideal place to date, I want to know about it. It could be that I may need to adjust my strategy or approach. Or possibly consider alternative venues. I come across beautiful women all the time in the places I frequent - albeit these places are mostly secular. So I believe I would be quite foolish to limit my dating pool to the church or church assembly.

As for the women who might be feeling some way about men not making a move: If you are reading this, please understand that most of us guys do not fancy ourselves as ladies' men - and the few that do tend to be narcissists. If you are available for dating, give us some indication of this.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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-I come across beautiful women all the time in the places I frequent - albeit these places are mostly secular. -

Right, and chances are, you're future special someone will likely be in these environments, not at church.

I think I recall noticing a woman, sitting by herself in church on a weekly basis, but I'd feel weird approaching her as she leaves to the parking lot

She'd basically come, sit at the service, and leave. No socializing, because obviously she has a social life outside of church in secular circles.
 
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Citanul

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If we honestly believe that’s the problem, we need address it with our church’s pastor or someone w/ some respect who has a voice in the church. Otherwise are just making an excuse & believing a lie.

TRUTH
The reality is that often when single people try to raise their concerns about the needs of their demographic not being met it just falls on deaf ears. And after being ignored on multiple occasions, many of us will give up trying.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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The reality is that often when single people try to raise their concerns about the needs of their demographic not being met it just falls on deaf ears. And after being ignored on multiple occasions, many of us will give up trying.

At the very most, some churches would have singles ministries or gatherings after services to do something, but I think that's gone to the wayside as it's frowned upon. Or if they do have such things, the church doesn't back it.

There was this one group called SALT, they would host get togethers on church property, but the church wouldn't promote it...they were like "You can use a room to hang out in" but was the extent of it. It wasn't posted to the church website or in a bulletin.

These groups tend to fizzle in a year or 2, usually due to people coupling up and leaving.
 
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Citanul

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At the very most, some churches would have singles ministries or gatherings after services to do something, but I think that's gone to the wayside as it's frowned upon. Or if they do have such things, the church doesn't back it.

There was this one group called SALT, they would host get togethers on church property, but the church wouldn't promote it...they were like "You can use a room to hang out in" but was the extent of it. It wasn't posted to the church website or in a bulletin.

These groups tend to fizzle in a year or 2, usually due to people coupling up and leaving.
M experience at my previous church had been that they'd recognised the need to attract younger members, but they immediately jumped to looking looking how they could make the church more family friendly. And when I sat in some of those discussions and cited myself as someone for whom family initiatives weren't relevant, I was met with the response "Well, you never know".

While it true that I didn't know at that point, it's turned out that those initiatives are still not relevant to me, I now attend a different church, and there's pretty much no younger people at my previous church.
 
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ThisIsMe123

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M experience at my previous church had been that they'd recognised the need to attract younger members, but they immediately jumped to looking looking how they could make the church more family friendly. And when I sat in some of those discussions and cited myself as someone for whom family initiatives weren't relevant, I was met with the response "Well, you never know".

While it true that I didn't know at that point, it's turned out that those initiatives are still not relevant to me, I now attend a different church, and there's pretty much no younger people at my previous church.

The demographic at the churches around here are typically mostly retirement age, and maybe families. But mostly retirees that are at the end of life (not to sound dark about it).

Of course, living in Florida, a good chunk of the population are retirees.
 
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Miles

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The way I apply 1 Thess 5:22 is usually with regard to maintaining neutrality and objectivity. If you are a judge, a financial auditor, or if you sit on the Board of Directors of a company, there would be safeguards in place to manage potential conflicts of interest. In financial dealings, this is especially true with respect to transactions involving related parties.

It's hard to have a decent standard of living in a society where nobody trusts those in authority to behave ethically and to not abuse their positions to enrich themselves in inappropriate ways.

To provide an obvious example: suppose a board member loaned their company a sum of money at 25% interest. Also suppose this company's finances were such that it was generating positive cash flow and could have easily gotten that loan at a much lower rate of interest. What is the purpose of this loan? Why is the interest rate so high? How does this loan benefit anyone other than the lender?



There were times I would ask one of these Karens where the appearance of evil was. Most of the time they struggle to explain this in an objective manner and it's clear they are speaking out of their own personal bias. We all have our own biases - the test of character is how we manage these. I have a story about this in an online forum - I'll put it up later...

While there are times that sin may be present in nightclubs and other such places, it would not follow that these places are sinful per se. When I go to a nightclub or dance hall, I consider its overall vibe. Sin is going to have an adverse impact on the overall vibe of a place. You don't even have to be a believer to sense this adverse effect. You'll know it.

Some establishments are so trashy that you are all but presumed to be some kind of creep solely because you are male. That's just human nature: if a woman is approached by 10 creepy and inconsiderate guys before you approach her, she's going to have a barrier up.

Here in Cincinnati there are two Latin themed nightclubs that operate weekly. One has been in business for a while - it's an OK place if you go with people you know. A lot of people there just like to drink their drink and watch others dance - or only dance with people they already know. The other opened up recently - while they are open very late and have great food, there have been reports of fights and other security concerns. If the vibe is such that they are but one misunderstanding or slight provocation away from fists flying everywhere, something is very wrong.

The dance events held at a studio are the most ideal because people are there to dance. Sometimes I even drive to Columbus for dancing.

So the TLDR version: you can avoid environments where sin is pervasive simply by paying attention to the overall vibe.
Agreed. Paying attention to the vibe of the place is key. Using discernment based on the situation. That way, we can have a clear conscience if others make false accusations.

I think it's the Karens and fault finders that drive away some decent folks away from their church communities and seek places where there aren't Karens (yeah good luck with that).

I had a good female friend of mine that was going to grief support groups at a church, and when some of the married women there found out she was never married (she is in her 50s)....the made digs at her racy lifestyle...that not having ever been married, means your a harlot....that you go from boyfriend to boyfriend, without every marrying any of them.

Though they didn't use the word "Harlot", there were digs made at her.
For sure. Good luck avoiding them! lol

Seeing that kind of attitude toward single Christians, the assumption that we must be sleeping around or whatever, is so unfortunate. I have to wonder if they're projecting what's in their hearts. Revealing more about what's going on in their own minds.

It would be nice to not have to deal with this kind of stuff, but I'm reminded of one of my favorite Far Side cartoons:

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