The Church Has Become A 'Pillar of Salt'

[Halbhh]

Jesus Christ said that the last days of mankind would be like Sodom and Gomorrah...

[edit, now I think I know which passage you meant!]

Let's get the full quote on that.

Here are 2 passages in Matthew:

14 "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town." -- Matthew 10


20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21“Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” -- Matthew 11


But I think you meant this passage --

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28“It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all."
-- Luke 17 NIV


A powerful reminder to us that the Day of the Lord could come at any time, and no one will know precisely what day that may be, and we all need to be prepared all the time!

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
The bottom line is, that is is what God says and thinks that matters, isn't it?

Sure, but Episcopalians do not read the Bible as individualistically as American evangelicals tend to, and they typically focus on scholarship and theological debate to inform their reading of the Scriptures as well.

Did you just say "sure, but" in response to This:

brinny said: ↑
The bottom line is, that is is what God says and thinks that matters, isn't it?

Can you elaborate?

 

[Albion]

Should the church refuse to inter all sinners, or just ones who sin differently than us?

It isn't as though every member of The Episcopal Church has the option to be buried in the Washington National Cathedral, however.

 

[FireDragon76]

It isn't as though every member of The Episcopal Church has the option to be buried in the Washington National Cathedral, however.

Personally, I think trying to make that cathedral the US equivalent of Westminster Cathedral is questionable, since the US doesn't technically have a state church. Hellen Keller was Swedenborgian, not Episcopalian, for instance, yet she's buried there, which fits with the English practice of burying anybody and everybody at Westminster as long as they reach national prominence, even if they were atheists.

 

[dqhall]

When Mt. Vesuvius near Pompeii, Italy erupted in 79 AD, the rich, poor, heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual were all killed. Could anyone haves escaped? Pompeii and Herculaneum were destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah. Archaeologists found someone had scratched the word, "Sodom" on a wall before dying.

A few days ago there was an earthquake and tsunami in Indonesia. According to a report I read the area is 20% Christian. Some Christian youth were at a retreat in a large building when it collapsed on them killing them. Why were they not spared?

Occasionally I read about someone impulsively cancelling a jet flight hours before the jet crashed. Once I heard a stewardess speak in a large church about when her plane struck a bridge seconds after taking off from National Airport and crashed into the icy Potomac River. She was trying to stay afloat in the freezing water thinking her only hope would be if there is a helicopter. Seconds later she noticed a helicopter coming. A man in the water waved off help and later perished. The helicopter crew went to her location and she was saved. She confessed Jesus as her savior to all of us who were listening.

 

[Phil 1:21]

There is something about open sin in the Bible isn't there?

Something about not associating with those in unrepentant open sin?

I'm sure it's in 1 Corinthians somewhere, chapter 5 perhaps?

I'm big on the forgiveness of God, but if someone isn't His child we pray for them in hopes they come to salvation, but after they die not much can be done, the choice is made prior to death.

How do you know this person wasn't His child?

 

[Halbhh]

The Church Has Become A 'Pillar of Salt'

Recently the Washington National Cathedral in Washington D.C. interred the ashes of a man who was murdered because of his homosexuality. While this is laudable it is another sign of our societal decay. Jesus Christ said that the last days of mankind would be like Sodom and Gomorrah, and it has come true, for the church has now become a 'pillar of salt'!

The actions of the Washington National Cathedral is liken to Lot's wife in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah where two angels instructed Lot and his family to flee the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah and don't look back. All of Lot's family heeded the warning except Lot's wife who looked back and instantly turned into a pillar of salt.

The actions of the Washington National Cathedral is paramount to the church becoming a pillar of salt for the two angels did not come to warn all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah of God's judgment, but only the one righteous man, Lot and his family.

It was Lot's wife who could not tear herself away from the immorality of Sodom and Gomorrah and therefore was turned into a pillar of salt when she foolishly looked back after being warned not to. Lot's wife can no longer be raptured or resurrected as she is no longer considered being part of the living.

Why didn't the Washington National Cathedral inter the ashes of all the aborted babies who tragically died at the hands of the most notorious abortion doctor, Dr Gosnell. The lack of sympathy for the unborn is another sign of the church becoming a 'pillar of salt' for they seek the approval of the wicked rather than heed the warnings of God.

I now realize why God kicked Adam Eve out of the Garden of Eden. He didn't want to 'inter' the ashes of the wicked, Adam and Eve and their descendants, in a place of holiness.

God Bless

I think you've written a valuable post, but it's important to know that none of us are 'good' in the ultimate way. All have sinned and fallen short.

Perhaps it can help to learn more about the exact sins of Sodom -- because we might think: "we don't do that!"

But have we, at times, done one of the sins of Sodom (1 of the 4) in the past?

What did God say was the reason Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed? We find His Words on this in a later book --

In this passage, God is talking about profound evil in Jerusalem, at this moment in time even worse than Sodom (!)....and when He does, He also tells us the precise sins of Sodom --

44“ ‘Everyone who quotes proverbs will quote this proverb about you [Jerusalem]: “Like mother, like daughter.” 45 You are a true daughter of your mother, who despised her husband and her children; and you are a true sister of your sisters, who despised their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite. 46 Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom. 47 You not only followed their ways and copied their detestable practices, but in all your ways you soon became more depraved than they. 48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, your sister [city] Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.

49“ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. 51 Samaria did not commit half the sins you did. You have done more detestable things than they, and have made your sisters seem righteous by all these things you have done. "
Ezekiel 16 NIV

-------
Now we see the precise reasons Sodom was destroyed (and the fact that Jerusalem at this point in time was even worse than Sodom...)

Sodom's Sins worthy of destruction:

1. Arrogance
(which is an 'abomination' -- Proverbs 16:5 ESV: Everyone who is arrogant in heart is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished. )

2. Lack of Charity for the hungry

3. Haughty (Listed as one of the 7 sins God hates -- Bible Gateway passage: Proverbs 6:16-19 - English Standard Version)
(How is 'haughty' different from 'arrogant'? Let's look.
Arrogant: having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities
Haughty: arrogantly superior and disdainful
-- Haughtiness goes past arrogance to not only think oneself of great importance, but to additionally have disdain towards others, a 2nd evil.)

4. Detestable things -- We can expect this includes the attempt in Genesis chapter 19 by all the men of Sodom, young and old, to do sodomy rape of the 2 visitors.

(Also, separately, from Jewish tradition, Sodom is said to have done some other detestable acts of evil too, including the brutal murders of 2 women for doing charity to a visiting hungry person.)

----------
Notice how we today could do worse than Sodom at times.... After having God answer prayers or show miraculous things, then rejecting Christ's words to us to repent (of our own sins) is worse (see Matthew chapter 11 passage quoted above in post #25, noting verse 21). If we do repent though, His Amazing Grace covers us (1 John chapter 1).

 

[Hank77]

It was Lot's wife who could not tear herself away from the immorality of Sodom and Gomorrah and therefore was turned into a pillar of salt when she foolishly looked back after being warned not to. Lot's wife can no longer be raptured or resurrected as she is no longer considered being part of the living.

Scripture doesn't say why she looked back, it could have just as easily been her saddest that her son-in-laws didn't leave with them or she was sad she had to leave her home with only what they could carry and her house would be destroyed. A house where she may have given birth to her daughters. You see I can speculate as to why she looked back but only the Lord knows why.
Where does it say that she won't be resurrected? If it doesn't say that then we don't know. God looks at the heart. Her punishment for disobeying God was her bodily removal from this earth. Whether God chooses to deny her eternal life is something we don't know.

 

[Hazelelponi]

How do you know this person wasn't His child?

Did this person die in unrepentant open sin?

There's a difference between having attitudes of love and forgiveness and just sticking our head in the sand and pretending that sin and rejection of Christ doesn't exist..

I absolutely believe it's a sin to murder anyone for any reason - but the answer to someone who was murdered isn't to pretend sin doesn't exist, or that people don't actually reject Christ..

 

[Phil 1:21]

Did this person die in unrepentant open sin?

Since I'm not God I would have no way of knowing.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Since I'm not God I would have no way of knowing.

Well pretending that sin or rejection of Christ doesn't exist isn't the answer.. that denies that a change of life follows salvation.

 

[Hank77]

Personally, I think trying to make that cathedral the US equivalent of Westminster Cathedral is questionable, since the US doesn't technically have a state church. Hellen Keller was Swedenborgian, not Episcopalian, for instance, yet she's buried there, which fits with the English practice of burying anybody and everybody at Westminster as long as they reach national prominence, even if they were atheists.

I believe Woodrow Wilson is also buried there and he was Presbyterian.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Well pretending that sin or rejection of Christ doesn't exist isn't the answer.. that denies that a change of life follows salvation.

Since I haven't seen anyone here do that, I'm not sure what exactly your point is. The question was, "How do you know this person wasn't His child?"

 

[Hazelelponi]

Since I haven't seen anyone here do that, I'm not sure what exactly your point is. The question was, "How do you know this person wasn't His child?"

As I said, open sin. If this person was a homosexual living a homosexual lifestyle then he was living in open sin.

If I'm to understand from the OP, this was the case.

Apparently this church inters atheists all the time if they got famous, because they bury all famous people, so that is what this church does..

But God's church must recognise there is sin; we preach the Gospel to the lost out of love for them - and in order to do that we must recognise there is such a thing as sin.

 

[Hank77]

There is something about open sin in the Bible isn't there?

Something about not associating with those in unrepentant open sin?

I'm sure it's in 1 Corinthians somewhere, chapter 5 perhaps?

I'm big on the forgiveness of God, but if someone isn't His child we pray for them in hopes they come to salvation, but after they die not much can be done, the choice is made prior to death.

1 Corinthians 5 - A church member, a man was in sexual sin with his father's wife. Paul said he had to leave the church, he turned him over to his sin in hopes that he would change his ways and not lose his eternal life.

I see this young man being buried in a safe place is a kindness to his family who loved him.

 

[Phil 1:21]

As I said, open sin. If this person was a homosexual living a homosexual lifestyle then he was living in open sin.

So if he was on the down-low, good to go?

 

[Hazelelponi]

So if he was on the down-low, good to go?

I don't understand.. ?

 

[Vicomte13]

The bottom line is, that it is what God says and thinks that matters, isn't it?

Always. But knowing what God thinks of a subject is difficult. The Churches point all different ways. The Bible is schizophrenic, if read as a single document.

If read correctly, God in the Bible tells everybody that Jesus is his beloved Son, listen to HIM, and they will focus like a laser beam on what JESUS said. What Jesus said differs sharply from what Moses said, and differs by degrees from what Paul, John, and James said (and they each differ from the other).

Given the contradictions, it is illegitimate to pick what one wishes to read, because God himself said specifically that Jesus is the one to listen to. So, read him first and foremost. And apply that. And when you come to something in the Bible said by someone else that seems to contradict Jesus, stick with what Jesus said, because that's what God said to do.

When we do that, we find Jesus said that sexual immorality will cause one to be thrown into the lake of fire at final judgment.

What is sexual immorality? Well, that would include homosexual activity, sure. It would also include heterosexual fornication and adultery. And adultery includes THINKING about having sex with somebody else (specifically, in Jesus' words, with a woman - is it legitimate to ADD TO Jesus' words by, for example, considering a woman who lusts after a man as having committed adultery? Tsk tsk, mustn't ADD to the words of Scripture now). Masturbation is accompanied by lustful thoughts. Therefore, masturbation is the same thing as adultery which is the same thing as fornication which is the same thing as gay sex: it's ALL inappropriate contenteia - it's ALL sexual immorality - and that means EVERYBODY IS DAMNED TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. US.

Jesus does not say that the gays are worse than adulterers, or that fornicators are less bad than gays, or that masturbators are less bad. Nope. It's all inappropriate contenteia, and that means everybody is going to be thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment for that sin.

Unless they are forgiven it.

Ah, and how are we forgiven? Jesus said, in four separate places, including the Lord's prayer, that God will forgive you your sins only to the extent that you forgive others their sins against you. So that's it, that's the standard. Jesus did not dilute or change that standard. Christians did, but God didn't say from the sky "Listen to Christians", he said "Listen to HIM", and HIM was Jesus. We know what Jesus said, and we know that God commanded us to listen to him.

So that really does completely settle it forever, and every Christian with a differing opinion is wrong and should shut up and obey God the Father and Jesus, whom we were all commanded to obey.

Gay sex is no worse than heterosexual sex of a dating couple, and neither of those things is any worse than thinking about sex with a woman while masturbating. It is all exactly the same sin: inappropriate contenteia, and masturbation will get you thrown into the Lake of Fire. Full stop.

To avoid damnation for the masturbation you have committed, you must forgive other people their sins. Otherwise, you're going to hell. Homosexuality, heterosexuality, adultery, inappropriate behavior with animals, autosexuality - the FLAVOR of the sin of inappropriate contenteia is completely irrelevant, according to Jesus, and HE is the ONLY ONE that God commanded us to listen to.

So he trumps. He trumps every yapping Christian mouth since him. All should shut up, listen to him, and get to the business of forgiving each other. The gays are no more damned to the lake of fire than the masturbating teenager lusting after some girl. Both are equally damned, for the same sin: inappropriate contenteia.

Moses taught the Hebrews otherwise, but God did not speak from Heaven telling US to listen to Moses. He told us to listen to Jesus. And Jesus said that to be forgiven you must forgive. No forgiveness, no forgiveness.

Everybody is gay, everybody is an adulterer, everybody is a fornicator - because everybody is a masturbator, and all of those sexual sins resolve into one single sin: inappropriate contenteia. Which is deadly.

So stop focusing on the flavors of sin, and focus on the cure: forgiveness. That's what Jesus said and that's where to bet.

 

[brinny]

Always. But knowing what God thinks of a subject is difficult. The Churches point all different ways. The Bible is schizophrenic, if read as a single document.

If read correctly, God in the Bible tells everybody that Jesus is his beloved Son, listen to HIM, and they will focus like a laser beam on what JESUS said. What Jesus said differs sharply from what Moses said, and differs by degrees from what Paul, John, and James said (and they each differ from the other).

Given the contradictions, it is illegitimate to pick what one wishes to read, because God himself said specifically that Jesus is the one to listen to. So, read him first and foremost. And apply that. And when you come to something in the Bible said by someone else that seems to contradict Jesus, stick with what Jesus said, because that's what God said to do.

When we do that, we find Jesus said that sexual immorality will cause one to be thrown into the lake of fire at final judgment.

What is sexual immorality? Well, that would include homosexual activity, sure. It would also include heterosexual fornication and adultery. And adultery includes THINKING about having sex with somebody else (specifically, in Jesus' words, with a woman - is it legitimate to ADD TO Jesus' words by, for example, considering a woman who lusts after a man as having committed adultery? Tsk tsk, mustn't ADD to the words of Scripture now). Masturbation is accompanied by lustful thoughts. Therefore, masturbation is the same thing as adultery which is the same thing as fornication which is the same thing as gay sex: it's ALL inappropriate contenteia - it's ALL sexual immorality - and that means EVERYBODY IS DAMNED TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. OF. US.

Jesus does not say that the gays are worse than adulterers, or that fornicators are less bad than gays, or that masturbators are less bad. Nope. It's all inappropriate contenteia, and that means everybody is going to be thrown into the Lake of Fire at final judgment for that sin.

Unless they are forgiven it.

Ah, and how are we forgiven? Jesus said, in four separate places, including the Lord's prayer, that God will forgive you your sins only to the extent that you forgive others their sins against you. So that's it, that's the standard. Jesus did not dilute or change that standard. Christians did, but God didn't say from the sky "Listen to Christians", he said "Listen to HIM", and HIM was Jesus. We know what Jesus said, and we know that God commanded us to listen to him.

So that really does completely settle it forever, and every Christian with a differing opinion is wrong and should shut up and obey God the Father and Jesus, whom we were all commanded to obey.

Gay sex is no worse than heterosexual sex of a dating couple, and neither of those things is any worse than thinking about sex with a woman while masturbating. It is all exactly the same sin: inappropriate contenteia, and masturbation will get you thrown into the Lake of Fire. Full stop.

To avoid damnation for the masturbation you have committed, you must forgive other people their sins. Otherwise, you're going to hell. Homosexuality, heterosexuality, adultery, inappropriate behavior with animals, autosexuality - the FLAVOR of the sin of inappropriate contenteia is completely irrelevant, according to Jesus, and HE is the ONLY ONE that God commanded us to listen to.

So he trumps. He trumps every yapping Christian mouth since him. All should shut up, listen to him, and get to the business of forgiving each other. The gays are no more damned to the lake of fire than the masturbating teenager lusting after some girl. Both are equally damned, for the same sin: inappropriate contenteia.

Moses taught the Hebrews otherwise, but God did not speak from Heaven telling US to listen to Moses. He told us to listen to Jesus. And Jesus said that to be forgiven you must forgive. No forgiveness, no forgiveness.

Everybody is gay, everybody is an adulterer, everybody is a fornicator - because everybody is a masturbator, and all of those sexual sins resolve into one single sin: inappropriate contenteia. Which is deadly.

So stop focusing on the flavors of sin, and focus on the cure: forgiveness. That's what Jesus said and that's where to bet.

i don't disagree about forgiveness, and that we are all sinners.

'Tis good to see you Vic. (((hug)))

 

[Phil 1:21]

I don't understand.. ?

Being on the down-low means practicing one's homosexuality in secret.

So then, good to go?