The calvinism chart

[Keachian]

I resonate most with High, although I would term myself as a non-lapsarian. I just think that discussion is too reminiscent of Angels and pin heads.

 

[Pteriax]

I voted moderate, but I may be closer to high, not quite sure. Five points all the way of course.

 

[Charlemagne4]

I believe that God loves everyone and I think anyone who doesn't believe that is a heretic who is severely distorting the Bible.

I have no idea how predestination works, but it seems much clearer to me that God loves everyone than the details of how predestination works.

 

[The Conductor]

I believe that God loves everyone and I think anyone who doesn't believe that is a heretic who is severely distorting the Bible.

I have no idea how predestination works, but it seems much clearer to me that God loves everyone than the details of how predestination works.

Yay! We're heretics! I'm sorry about this, brother, but if you expected people on this sub-forum to agree with that, you're going to have a bad time.

"Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”"
Romans 9:13-15 ESV

With regards to the question, I'd say 3.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Charlemagne4

Semper Reformanda - Reformed is for discussion and debate between Calvinists. Non-Calvinists may post here, but there are guidelines, and no debate. There are other places for debate between Calvinists and non-Calvinists such as the Soteriology section of the forum. And please keep the "golden rule" in mind. Thanks.

I believe that God loves everyone

So the universalists say, what a lovely generous thought, and a common saying, however...

and I think anyone who doesn't believe that is a heretic who is severely distorting the Bible.

...the real distortion of the Bible comes from those making the unbiblical claim that "God loves everyone". Not only is it unbiblical, but it is ambiguous. Rather than simply branding those with whom I disagree as "heretics", I will quote from the authoritative Word of God, and rather than mixing my thoughts, "allow" the Bible to "speak for itself" by the Holy Spirit.

Rom 9:10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” (NKJV)

Psalms 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. 5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity. (NKJV)

Psalms 11:5 The LORD tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. (NKJV)

Psalms 26:5 I have hated the assembly of evildoers, And will not sit with the wicked. (NKJV)

Psalms 31:6 I have hated those who regard useless idols; But I trust in the LORD. (NKJV)

Psalms 139:21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You? 22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties; 24 And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting. (NKJV)

Proverbs 6:16 These six things the LORD hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil, 19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren. (NKJV)

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. (NKJV)

Matthew 12:45 “Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.” (NKJV)

Psalms 7:11 God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day. (NKJV)

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (NKJV)

John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world..." (NKJV)

I have no idea how predestination works, but it seems much clearer to me that God loves everyone than the details of how predestination works.

Read Romans Chapter 9 without reading your preconceived notions into the Scripture.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day. (NKJV)

 

[Charlemagne4]

Sorry I just lost 8 years of my life struggling with doubt because I was unable to believe that God hates most of the people in the world. I was taught reformed/evanglical theology. It ruined my life. My life is still ruined.

I didn't mean to debate, just share my view as someone that comes from the Reformed/Evangelical tradition. I think I am extending the golden rule when I call Reformed Christianity a heresy, bro.

 

[A New Dawn]

Sorry I just lost 8 years of my life struggling with doubt because I was unable to believe that God hates most of the people in the world. I was taught reformed/evanglical theology. It ruined my life. My life is still ruined.

I didn't mean to debate, just share my view as someone that comes from the Reformed/Evangelical tradition. I think I am extending the golden rule when I call Reformed Christianity a heresy, bro.

How is your life ruined? I can understand struggling to accept that belief, but how does it ruin your life?

 

[Raiyuu]

Sorry not to change the subject back but I voted high. Would it make me more of a moderate if I believe that even though God does not have a desire to save the reprobates that He still doesn't take pleasure in their death just because of His character?

 

[Charlemagne4]

How is your life ruined? I can understand struggling to accept that belief, but how does it ruin your life?

My life is ruined because I suffered from very, very serious doubt and ran away from God specifically concerning rejecting evangelical/calvinist beliefs that were taught to me dogmatically. My entire life is under God's curse do to sins I have commited while rejecting evangelical beliefs I now know are not true.

While of course I am responsible for my own actions and cannot blame Calvinists or anyone else for the things I have done wrong, I do blame the false teachings for inspiring my doubts and causing me to turn away from God.

It has now been 8 years of going through constant living hell trying to get my life together. I have gone through intense denominazation which evangelicals have said is impossible because of their views of soteriology.

I prayed to God today asking Him if I could die. I hate my life, I live in a living hell.

I argued so fiercely against Christianity that I caused someone to lose their faith while questioning evangelical beliefs. Now they are not a Christian and have the same view of those evangelical beliefs that I did. I feel like I have so many answers now, things that the LORD has shown me, but I cannot get through all the dogma the person has experienced.

If they don't repent they will go to hell, and I am certainly responsible for some of what they are experiencing and there rejection of God. I think about it all the time.

So I am angry with myself and I am angry with evangelicals, because I believe that my case against evangelicalism/Calvinism is extremely strong, and the person lost their faith not because of my charisma or because of some subsequent experience but because evangelical beliefs are false.

This is something I feel very bad about and God has shown me it is the reason that God cursed my life. I think about it all the time.

Theology is very serious it is not something for people to sit around and pat themselves on the back about how Christian they are.

I would encourage people to think long and hard about requiring others to believe that God is a basically selfish God who predestines people to hell for his own glory. This belief has ruined my life.

 

[twin1954]

Sorry not to change the subject back but I voted high. Would it make me more of a moderate if I believe that even though God does not have a desire to save the reprobates that He still doesn't take pleasure in their death just because of His character?

Not at all. I am an ultra-high Calvinist and I don't believe it can be Scripturally understood that God takes pleasure in the death of the reprobate. He gets no satisfaction from it. It is simple justice. He delights in mercy but not in sending the reprobate to everlasting destruction. It is called His strange work. Isa. 28:1

 

[A New Dawn]

My life is ruined because I suffered from very, very serious doubt and ran away from God specifically concerning rejecting evangelical/calvinist beliefs that were taught to me dogmatically. My entire life is under God's curse do to sins I have commited while rejecting evangelical beliefs I now know are not true.

While of course I am responsible for my own actions and cannot blame Calvinists or anyone else for the things I have done wrong, I do blame the false teachings for inspiring my doubts and causing me to turn away from God.

It has now been 8 years of going through constant living hell trying to get my life together. I have gone through intense denominazation which evangelicals have said is impossible because of their views of soteriology.

I prayed to God today asking Him if I could die. I hate my life, I live in a living hell.

I argued so fiercely against Christianity that I caused someone to lose their faith while questioning evangelical beliefs. Now they are not a Christian and have the same view of those evangelical beliefs that I did. I feel like I have so many answers now, things that the LORD has shown me, but I cannot get through all the dogma the person has experienced.

If they don't repent they will go to hell, and I am certainly responsible for some of what they are experiencing and there rejection of God. I think about it all the time.

So I am angry with myself and I am angry with evangelicals, because I believe that my case against evangelicalism/Calvinism is extremely strong, and the person lost their faith not because of my charisma or because of some subsequent experience but because evangelical beliefs are false.

This is something I feel very bad about and God has shown me it is the reason that God cursed my life. I think about it all the time.

Theology is very serious it is not something for people to sit around and pat themselves on the back about how Christian they are.

I would encourage people to think long and hard about requiring others to believe that God is a basically selfish God who predestines people to hell for his own glory. This belief has ruined my life.

I don't want to take this thread off course, but I would like to say that even though Calvinists believe in limited atonement, they do not, in general, require others to believe that, or consider those who don't to not be Christian.

I pray that you are able to find some peace in your walk with God.

 

[JM]

Polls are fun.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I voted moderate.

I'm a 4-point Calvinist. I don't buy into limited atonement. The other 4 points of T.U.L.I.P. are as I see them.

I believe that John Calvin was a 4 pointer as well. So I'm in pretty good company.

 

[stenerson]

I guess I'm a High Calvinist.

 

[GQ Chris]

I think I fall in Ultra High.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I used to be Ultra High but now am Moderate.

 

[JM]

...it's lonely at the top, ain't it twin?

 

[cubanito]

Since none of the above was not a category, I decided to make sure the hyper calvinists got a vote. I would wonder where van Til would be on the chart, as I find my answer would be nearest the fact that humans can NOT comprehend this.

JR

 

[JustAsIam77]

Since none of the above was not a category, I decided to make sure the hyper calvinists got a vote. I would wonder where van Til would be on the chart, as I find my answer would be nearest the fact that humans can NOT comprehend this.

JR

Hey brother, I seem to be enamored with the same zest for the apostle Paul as you are with Cornelius Van Til. With proper exegesis of Paul's writings I think he must be considered the reason Calvin, Luther, Zwingli and yes Van Til came to their theological conclusions.

 

[drjean]

LOL I am between Moderate Calvinist and American Baptist...no wonder I'm not fully happy in either church!

Maybe I should stick with "Believer"...

I think part of the issue, other than semantics, is that I believe Christ did die for and redeem all who accept it...however not everyone alive on earth is what I consider "fully human" and therefore there are those who cannot accept it, and to whom God does not extend it (such as the days of Noah were...) Satan tried to corrupt the human race more than once, I have full belief that he is still trying, and has done so again. (Could be behind the UFO/Alien invasion for all I know lol). ...That God elected all (human beings) to salvation, though not all will come to repentance. (Free will.)

I do believe we are to witness to everyone "God's Word will not return unto Him void" because we do not know who will accept and who will not.