The Book of Enoch?

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Portions of 1 Enoch Referring To Yahushua Messiah Before He was even born on earth :



In those days the Lord bade them to summon and testify to the children of earth concerning their wisdom: Show it unto them; for ye are their guides, and a recompense over the whole earth. For I And MY SON will be united with them for ever in the paths of uprightness in their lives;and ye shall have peace: rejoice, ye children of uprightness. Amen.
• 1 Enoch 105:1-2



And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And His Name before the Head of Days.

Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His Name was named before the Lord of Spirits.

He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And He Shall Be The Light Of The Gentiles,
And The Hope Of Those Who Are Troubled Of Heart.

All Who Dwell On Earth Shall Fall Down And Worship Before Him,
And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.

And for this reason hath He been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.
• 1 Enoch 48:2-6



And from henceforth there shall be nothing corruptible;
For That Son of Man has appeared,
And Has Seated Himself On The Throne Of His Glory,
And all evil shall pass away before His Face,
And the word of that Son of Man shall go forth

And be strong before the Lord of Spirits.
• 1 Enoch 69:29



And there was great joy amongst them,
And they blessed and glorified and extolled
Because the name of that Son of Man had been revealed unto them.

And He Sat On The Throne Of His Glory,
And The Sum of Judgement Was Given Unto The Son Of Man,
And He caused the sinners to pass away and be destroyed from off the face of the earth,
And those who have led the world astray.
• 1 Enoch 69:26-27



And there I saw One who had a head of days,
And His head was white like wool,
And with Him was another being whose countenance had the appearance of a man,
And his face was full of graciousness, like one of the holy angels.
And I asked the angel who went with me and showed me all the hidden things, concerning That Son of Man, who He was, and whence He was, (and) why He went with the Head of Days? And he answered and said unto me:
This is The Son Of Man who hath righteousness,
With whom dwelleth righteousness,
And who revealeth all the treasures of that which is hidden,

Because the Lord of Spirits hath chosen Him,
And whose lot hath the pre-eminence before the Lord of Spirits in uprightness for ever.

And this Son of Man whom thou hast seen
Shall raise up the kings and the mighty from their seats,
[And the strong from their thrones]
And shall loosen the reins of the strong,
And break the teeth of the sinners.

And He shall put down the kings from their thrones and kingdoms]
Because they do not extol and praise Him,
Nor humbly acknowledge whence the kingdom was bestowed upon them.
And He shall put down the countenance of the strong,
And shall fill them with shame.

And darkness shall be their dwelling,
And worms shall be their bed,
And they shall have no hope of rising from their beds,
Because they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits.

And these are they who judge the stars of heaven,
[And raise their hands against the Most High],
And tread upon the earth and dwell upon it.
And all their deeds manifest unrighteousness,
And their power rests upon their riches,
And their faith is in the gods which they have made with their hands,
And they deny the name of the Lord of Spirits,

And they persecute the houses of His congregations,
And the faithful who hang upon the name of the Lord of Spirits.
• 1 Enoch 46


Books of Enoch

 

[Jipsah]

The Council of Jamnia (90 A.D.)

They published a canon of Jewish scriptures, did they? One to which anyone paid attention? Or is this another of those notorious "they took it out of the Bible" tales, like the "Gnostic Gospels"?

 

[Jipsah]

Portions of 1 Enoch Referring To Yahushua Messiah Before He was even born on earth

Sounds a lot like the Quran, doesn't it? Yet another book of "Holy Scripture" made up out of whole cloth. Gotta have some truth in it to get 'em to swallow the poison.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

"magick",

But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, Sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
• Revelation 21:8


But Elymas The Sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.
• Acts 13:8


But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously Practiced Sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great,
• Acts 8:9



• Jannes and Jambres
Jannes and Jambres - Wikipedia


Then The Magicians of Egypt did so with their Enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.
• Exodus 7:22


Now As Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
• 2 Timothy 3:8

Stand now With Your Enchantments
And The Multitude Of Your Sorceries,
In which you have labored from your youth—
Perhaps you will be able to profit,
Perhaps you will prevail.
You are wearied in the multitude of your counsels;
Let now The Astrologers, The Stargazers,
And The Monthly Prognosticators
Stand up and save you
From what shall come upon you.
Behold, They Shall Be As Stubble,
The Fire Shall Burn Them;
They shall not deliver themselves
From The Power Of The Flame;
It shall not be a coal to be warmed by,
Nor a fire to sit before!
• Isaiah 47:12-14

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Sounds a lot like the Quran, doesn't it? Yet another book of "Holy Scripture" made up out of whole cloth. Gotta have some truth in it to get 'em to swallow the poison.

These Scriptures were in The Qumran Caves and were around before Christianity or Islam.

List of the Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia

Aramaic Enoch Scroll - Wikipedia

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

From :
THE QUMRAN LIBRARY: SCROLLS

THE QUMRAN LIBRARY: SCROLLS: Scrolls from the Dead Sea (Library of Congress Exhibition)



The Enoch Scroll

The Hosea Commentary Scroll

The Prayer For King Jonathan Scroll

The Leviticus Scroll

The Sabbath Sacrifice Scroll

The Psalms Scroll

INTRODUCTION: SCROLLS: Scrolls from the Dead Sea (Library of Congress Exhibition)

Introduction - Scrolls from the Dead Sea | Exhibitions - Library of Congress

 

[Devin P]

Usually because it gives them a pseudo-scriptural hook for their pre-existing beliefs in "paranormal" claptrap, flying saucers, "magick", and a variety of other forms of new age arglebargle. Whatever spooky-loo crap you want to roll into your "Christian" faith, you can find some bit of sonorous and religious-sounding hogwash in "Enoch" to support it. That's why for real true-blue "Enoch" fans, it becomes the center of their faith, and the real Holy Scriptures take a secondary position, if even that. They find all they want in "Enoch", no need for the far less entertaining Bible.

Literally nothing of what you've said is in the book of Enoch, not even close.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Many Christians regard it as Scripture, but it was not included in the Hebrew Tanakh. The Lord limited the Scriptures to (1) the Law (5 books), (2) the Prophets (8 books), and (3) the Psalms (11 books). 24 books in the Hebrew canon.

Jude, the womb brother of Jesus, tells us:
"Enoch the prophet, the seventh from Adam...".
Enoch saw God the Word, who was to come, who was with God, and who was God, and saw Him who is Wisdom, hidden in mystery, and who was to be revealed "to the elect", and in whose name, which was to be revealed, the righteous are saved

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Enoch was Scripture Before Moses was even born. Noah had the Sayings / Writings with him on the ark.

And Abraham lived with Noah and Shem, from age 10 until the Tower of Babel fell, when Abraham was 49 years old, so as to hide from Nimrod, who wanted to kill him.
Abram, whose name was given him by his father, Terah, to show the high position of "exalted father", that the young Son of Ham had placed him in, hid Abram in a cave with the mother for the first ten years of his life.
After Abram dwelt with Noah and Shem, he certainly came away with his own copy of the writings of Enoch, and taught from them.
In the DSS, in what is dubbed "the Genesis Apocryphon", Abram wrote that he taught the wise men of Pharoah from the book of Enoch, when they asked him to teach them "wisdom, values, and truth".
Shem outlived Abraham.
Jacob was sent to live with Shem and Eber, when he had to flee Esau because Esau was going to kill him for getting the birthright blessing from Isaac, by deception; even though Esau had sold it for "a mess of pottage", to Jacob.
The writings of the ancient Jews give us these historical facts that totally corroborate with the Torah.

 

[Yekcidmij]

These Scriptures were in The Qumran Caves and were around before Christianity or Islam.

List of the Dead Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia

Aramaic Enoch Scroll - Wikipedia

And which one's weren't found among the Dead Sea Scrolls? Why, the very one's you've been citing on this thread (ie, the "Book of Parables").

I think you should be more cautious in your claims and citations.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

And which one's weren't found among the Dead Sea Scrolls? Why, the very one's you've been citing on this thread (ie, the "Book of Parables").

I think you should be more cautious in your claims and citations.

I've posted this before but John Strugnell who was apart of The Dead Sea Scrolls Editorial Team said that he was shown Full Copies of The Book of Enoch in Aramaic :


THE HIDDEN ARAMAIC ENOCH SCROLL

John Strugnell - Wikipedia

 

[Yekcidmij]

I've posted this before but John Strugnell who was apart of The Dead Sea Scrolls Editorial Team said that he was shown Full Copies of The Book of Enoch in Aramaic :


THE HIDDEN ARAMAIC ENOCH SCROLL

John Strugnell - Wikipedia

I'm as generally against clicking on links from internet forums to unsecured sites as I am to taking candy from a stranger. In any case, I'm not sure how this changes the fact that those portions of the book of Enoch were not among the Qumran finds.

No need to click on random sites either. You can physically see the DSS at the Israel Antiquities Authority's site: The Dead Sea Scrolls - Browse Manuscripts'

 

[yeshuasavedme]

And which one's weren't found among the Dead Sea Scrolls? Why, the very one's you've been citing on this thread (ie, the "Book of Parables").

I think you should be more cautious in your claims and citations.

Actually, since the leader of the Essenes took upon himself the title of son of man -as revealed in Enoch, then the section on the Son of Man in heaven, hidden, with God, who was God, Wisdom, who was to come, is just a section applied to the leader and hidden at some point after Jesus was proven to be the Son of Man whom Enoch wrote about, by revelation
And one can prove that the section is Enoch's writing because the references in other of the sections of Enoch fully corroborate that portion.

 

[Yekcidmij]

And one can prove that the section is Enoch's writing because the references in other of the sections of Enoch fully corroborate that portion.

I'm not sure that is conclusive proof of anything - not saying it's completely unreasonable either. But this still doesn't change the fact that those portions are not among the DSS.

So your first problem is one of hard data - those portions were not among the DSS finds.

Your second problem is a general failure in evaluating and weighing a statistical argument. Your argument only accounts for causality running in one direction - the Book of Parables and other sections corroborate one another. But you don't consider an alternative, and that is that the Book of Parables came later, and it's author was influenced by some things already said in other portions of the original work. And it's this explanation that goes well with the hard fact of the Book of Parables not being in the DSS finds.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

I'm as generally against clicking on links from internet forums to unsecured sites as I am to taking candy from a stranger. In any case, I'm not sure how this changes the fact that those portions of the book of Enoch were not among the Qumran finds.

No need to click on random sites either. You can physically see the DSS at the Israel Antiquities Authority's site: The Dead Sea Scrolls - Browse Manuscripts'

But They Were found at the Qumran finds. That's what I'm trying to show you.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

The Apocryphon Of Daniel was Also Found with The Dead Sea Scrolls (50-1 B.C.)


The Dead Sea Scrolls - Featured Scrolls

Biblical Archaeology: Exploring The Dead Sea Scrolls (4Q246 Apocryphon of Daniel)

4Q246 - Wikipedia


English Translation :

COLUMN I (RIGHT) TRANSLATION

1. [ ] rested upon him, he fell befor the throne
2. [… k]ing, rage is coming to the world, and your years
3. […]. . . your vision, all of it is about to come unto the world.
4. [… mi]ghty [signs], distress is coming uopn the land
5. […] great slaughter in the provinces
6. […] king of Assyria [ and E]gypt
7. […] he will rule over the land
8. […] will do and all will serve
9. [… gr]eat will be called and he will be designated by his name.

COLUMN II (LEFT) TRANSLATION

• 1. “He will be called The Son Of God, and they will call Him The Son Of The Most High. Like the sparks
• 2. that you saw, so will their kingdom be; they will rule several year over
• 3. the earth and crush everything; a people will crush another people, and a province another provi[n]ce
• 4. Until the people of God arises and makes everyone rest from the sword.
• 5. His kingdom will be an eternal kingdom, and all His paths in truth. He will jud[ge]
• 6. the earth in truth and all will make peace. The sword will cease from the earth
• 7. and all the provinces will pay homage. The great God is his strength,
• 8. He will wage war for him, he will place the peoples in his hand and
• 9. Cast them all away before him. His rule will be an eternal rule and all the abysses”

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I'm not sure that is conclusive proof of anything - not saying it's completely unreasonable either. But this still doesn't change the fact that those portions are not among the DSS.

So your first problem is one of hard data - those portions were not among the DSS finds.

Your second problem is a general failure in evaluating and weighing a statistical argument. Your argument only accounts for causality running in one direction - the Book of Parables and other sections corroborate one another. But you don't consider an alternative, and that is that the Book of Parables came later, and it's author was influenced by some things already said in other portions of the original work. And it's this explanation that goes well with the hard fact of the Book of Parables not being in the DSS finds.

They thought their leader was the Son of Man of whom Enoch saw, hidden. So bias existed, even then.
There are DSS Scrolls so badly deteriorated that they have not been read, and assumption based on bias is all you have to go on, but the Son Of Man section is corroborated in other parts and in the Book of Job, and other books, and in the NT.
In 1 Cor 2:7, Paul writes of Jesus Christ as Enoch saw Him, and says they teach/preach to those who are made believers, through the Gospel of the cross, about Him.
In Greek, Paul writes, literally
But we teach Wisdom, God in mystery hidden, which God ordained before the ages for our glory.

 

[Yekcidmij]

But They Were found at the Qumran finds. That's what I'm trying to show you.

What's the catalog number (eg, 4QEn__....)?

The Apocryphon Of Daniel was Also Found with The Dead Sea Scrolls (50-1 B.C.)

This may sound strange, but we're discussing the Enoch, not the Apocryphon of Daniel.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

What's the catalog number (eg, 4QEn__....)?



This may sound strange, but we're discussing the Enoch, not the Apocryphon of Daniel.

It says it on the link:
(4Q246 Apocryphon of Daniel)

Biblical Archaeology: Exploring The Dead Sea Scrolls (4Q246 Apocryphon of Daniel)

4Q246 - Wikipedia

 

[Yekcidmij]

They thought their leader was the Son of Man of whom Enoch saw, hidden. So bias existed, even then.

People have always been biased. I'm not sure this is really a good argument for anything. Nor should this be a new discovery.

There are DSS Scrolls so badly deteriorated that they have not been read,

Which one's haven't been read? This is a strange claim on your part.

and assumption based on bias is all you have to go on,

Demonstrate the assumption and the bias. Empty rhetoric is all you seem to have.

but the Son Of Man section is corroborated in other parts and in the Book of Job, and other books, and in the NT.

This doesn't address my previous point, but then again I'm making a technical argument with someone who thinks the earth doesn't orbit the sun (or the barycenter if that bothers you) so I'm not sure I can expect too much by way of addressing the point.

In 1 Cor 2:7, Paul writes of Jesus Christ as Enoch saw Him, and says they teach/preach to those who are made believers, through the Gospel of the cross, about Him.
In Greek, Paul writes, literally
But we teach Wisdom, God in mystery hidden, which God ordained before the ages for our glory.

It seems a little ridiculous to point out that 1 Cor 2:7 says nothing of Enoch. You would think just a cursory glance would show that. In any case, the wisdom of God, hidden in mystery, is the cross as Paul makes abundantly clear in 1 Cor 1:18-2:5. And it makes sense why Paul would have to make this argument. The cross would have been scandalous. It would have been thought to be a humiliating and shameful death, carried out by the pagan Romans and reserved for rebels against the state. That's why it would have appeared foolish to everyone. The Christians were going around claiming that a guy executed as a state criminal in the most shameful and humiliating way available was in fact God's plan all along. This is why Paul argues that God's wisdom is hidden from them and why their wisdom is foolishness. It has nothing to do with Enoch who, and which I emphasize, wasn't even mention in 1 Cor 2:7.