The Bible's Laws on Divorce and Remarriage.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Verses 10-11 (Which is a command from the Lord) says that if a spouse is to depart, she is not to remarry or she is to be reconciled back to her husband.
But in both cases, they are not to remarry.

But Paul does not give the same instruction to both spouses. He gives instructions for the one who departs, but not for the one who is left. You have added the instruction for the one who is left yourself and not Paul.

But you can believe what you like, but if you are saying that the Bible gives instructions to a husband or wife whose spouse leaves a marriage and reconciliation is out of the question, then you are wrong, because Paul does not specify what a deserted spouse should do or not do.

So, all you can say is "In my opinion" the same rule applies in both cases.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But Paul does not give the same instruction to both spouses. He gives instructions for the one who departs, but not for the one who is left. You have added the instruction for the one who is left yourself and not Paul.

But you can believe what you like, but if you are saying that the Bible gives instructions to a husband or wife whose spouse leaves a marriage and reconciliation is out of the question, then you are wrong, because Paul does not specify what a deserted spouse should do or not do.

So, all you can say is "In my opinion" the same rule applies in both cases.

Well, I am trying to keep an open mind. I read Matthew 19:9 again. I do see it as a slight possibility that Jesus could mean that the guilty party (who was unfaithful) cannot remarry, and the husband can possibly remarry only if his wife was unfaithful. But this presents a problem because it would appear to conflict with 1 Corinthians 7:39, and Romans 7:2 (Unless these are only meant for illegal divorce and not legitimate divorce due to unfaithfulness).

 

[Dave L]

So why stop at divorce and remarriage? What about the person who was really saved, had the Holy Spirit, and at the Wedding ceremony had too many drinks, and for first time in life drove drunk and ended up killing someone, lost salvation?

You need to repent before you can be forgiven. You can repent from drunk driving and be forgiven. You cannot continue to live in an adulterous lifestyle and be forgiven.

 

[Dave L]

My Bible states that the blood of Jesus cleanses from all sin, and once saved and sealed, God Himself will make sure that we will NEVER lose eternal life, so how can you say this?

But the redeemed overcome sin. They do not wallow in it.

 

[Vicomte13]

I was not talking about a believer's past life before they came to Christ. It's obvious all believers have sinned before they came to Christ. I was referring to a Christian's present walk with GOD.

All Christians, without exception (unless they die immediately after their conversion) continue to sin after they believe in Christ. Any Christian who says he has not sinned after his conversion is a liar, and lying is on both lists of deadly sins.

So, what's the point in asserting a point that the Bible says, yes, but that not one human being in two thousand years has ever done, or will ever do. The only way to remain sinless after conversion is to go out and die.

Maybe somebody can manage it for a day, two, three, a week. Longer that that? Pfffft.
It never happened.

If anybody on this thread, including you, would like to lie before God and man and say that you have not sinned in all of the five or ten or whatever years since you converted to Christianity, go ahead. There is not one other person reading who will believe you. Because "The Bible says..." many may not come out and call you a liar out loud (I will), but every single person will know you are.

That's the problem. The Bible has this standard in it that it is impossible for human beings to meet. So when you raise it as though it were, you are essentially the Emperor in his new clothes...which are not real and everybody knows it.

What the Bible says on that subject is flat out not true. It's not doable. It is impossible for human beings to stop sinning even after conversion, so if that means that the Bible says that nobody is saved - and that IS what the text you are quoting says - then nobody is saved and we may as well all damn God, damn Christ and do as we please, because God's standard is brutal and impossible. Like telling a man to breathe water, when we can't.

If THAT is REALLY what God demands of us, then he is utterly useless to us, and evil, and we're all dead anyway, so we may as well stop pretending.

This is exactly the problem with the divorce law. Jesus really did say that to remarry after divorce is adultery. And when that is enforced as a law, as the Catholic Church has, it is essentially a condemnation of the unlucky to a lifetime of masturbation - which is just as deadly a sin as adultery. So the effect of what Jesus says, if taken literally and applied by a law, is that both parties in a divorce are damned to hell and they may as well walk away from God and do as they please.

And you know what? That is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED in the Catholic Church. The Anglican Communion exists BECAUSE the Catholic Church would not grant a king a divorce (note, please,, they granted OTHER kings divorces, claiming the situation was different, but not him). So he left, took the Church of his land with him, and chopped off the heads of the old Church's bishops for good measure, for treason.

In the 21st Century, nobody chops off heads. They just leave the Church behind, because no, people who are unlucky in marriage are simply NOT going to give up sex for the rest of their lives, and no, they are not going to give up the hope of happily pairing off either. And if Jesus says they must, they will tell Jesus to pound sand. Regretfully, perhaps, but really.

That is the problem with the whole line of argument. People CANNOT, and WILL NOT give up sex for life because they divorced a crappy spouse, just exactly as Christians CANNOT, and DO NOT cease all sinning when they become Christians.

Any Christian who tells you he never sinned again after conversion is a damned liar. WE ALL KNOW THAT.
Stop pretending. It kills the Church.

 

[Vicomte13]

But the redeemed overcome sin. They do not wallow in it.

They commit it again nevertheless. They never COMPLETELY overcome it. Any Christian who tells you he never sinned again after conversion is a liar. The Bible says Christians don't, but they do, and we all know it. So, the Bible is wrong on that point. OR we're all damned, so why bother with it?

 

[Dave L]

They commit it again nevertheless. They never COMPLETELY overcome it. Any Christian who tells you he never sinned again after conversion is a liar. The Bible says Christians don't, but they do, and we all know it. So, the Bible is wrong on that point. OR we're all damned, so why bother with it?

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10) (KJV 1900)

 

[Neogaia777]

They commit it again nevertheless. They never COMPLETELY overcome it. Any Christian who tells you he never sinned again after conversion is a liar. The Bible says Christians don't, but they do, and we all know it. So, the Bible is wrong on that point. OR we're all damned, so why bother with it?

The Bible holds the promise that you eventually "won't" anymore, if your truly following Him and walking in the true way... Otherwise, you'll just be another Pharisee or Bigot or Hypocrite...

God Bless!

 

[brinny]

I was a victim advisor for the New Zealand Ministry of Justice for 10 years. In all that time, I did not see one violent offender reformed. Many judges thought anger management programmes were a joke, where the offender sat down the back and smoked but did not engage,
In my time there were at least two brutal murders of victims by violent partners. One of these victims was a client of mine.

i also worked as a victim advocate/case manager with victims who suffered horrendously and were forced to go into hiding, change their name, etc. Even though the shelter was a secret place/location, an abuser broke into the back door and kidnapped his child....i was on duty, called the police and the officer and i rode in the cruiser in the direction he ran to. The officer caught him, and he was arrested. The child and i were returned to the shelter and the distraught and terrified mom. Even as this mom and child were in a "safe" place, completely secret, and there was a restraining order and an order of protection prohibiting the abuser go anywhere near the mom and child, he found out where she was and broke into the shelter in the dead of night. Mom and child had to be relocated and to change her name, etc.

These circumstances are describing spouses and children who "flee" like "refugees". The Bible, all throughout it, speaks of what WE are to do with those headed for death and destruction, and to speak out and intervene and release the ones in danger/fleeing from the grip of evil men.

I'm a former victim of horrendous abuse...at least once when i was very pregnant. The shelter i sought refuge from, is where i was hired, months later. They offered me the job as victim advocate/crisis counselor. Later i was promoted to case manager.

 

[DamianWarS]

Verse 15 is merely saying that if a person who is not a Christian wants to depart and divorce their Christian spouse, the believer should let the unbelieving spouse divorce them. But this does not mean they can remarry unless the spouse of their previous marriage dies. Should a Christian divorce their spouse because they are an unbeliever? Paul's advice is not to divorce them but he doesn't say it is a sin if you do. He says we are not in bondage in such cases. So yes, I do see that divorce could be allowed between a believer and an unbeliever; But they cannot remarry unless their previous spouse is dead.

The OP is about divorce not remarriage.

 

[RDKirk]

But Paul does not give the same instruction to both spouses. He gives instructions for the one who departs, but not for the one who is left. You have added the instruction for the one who is left yourself and not Paul.

But you can believe what you like, but if you are saying that the Bible gives instructions to a husband or wife whose spouse leaves a marriage and reconciliation is out of the question, then you are wrong, because Paul does not specify what a deserted spouse should do or not do.

So, all you can say is "In my opinion" the same rule applies in both cases.

Well, if it was a young Christian woman who was deserted by her spouse, we pretty much do have an instruction from Paul:

As for younger widows, do not put them on such a list. For when their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ, they want to marry.

Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.
Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also busybodies who talk nonsense, saying things they ought not to.

So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. -- 1 Timothy 5

Every part of the reason a young widow was instructed to marry would apply as strongly to a believing woman who had been divorced by her unbelieving husband--a situation I suspect was fairly common (and Justin Martyr records a particular instance). Joanna in Jerusalem could have wound up like that.

And the reason would be: Unbelievers are dead...in Christ.

 

[Strong in Him]

I think it is safe to say that in this situation, they are probably not a believer,

I wouldn't assume anything.

If they are a believer (this would be seriously problematic). A separation of living would be necessary, but not divorce if they are both true genuine believers in Jesus.

Why should a woman have to remain legally married to an abusive/alcoholic man from who she is separated? Presumably you're saying that that was her one shot at love; too bad she got it wrong?

 

[servantofiam]

Are you saying that God, who IS love, would expect someone to remain married to a violent person/narcissist/ someone who has, or develops, MH problems and makes their lives hell? Are you saying that the person, and/or their kids have to remain in that hellish situation until they die or are killed?

God is indeed LOVE!!
And a narcissist is very much like our Adversary, a true chameleon who can mimick being something they are not, and then one day reveal them true selves.

But we have something that God cannot interfere with called "Free Will." It's our free will that gets us involved and entangled in these types of situations. So, it will take giving the entire situation to God for Him to fix it.

I would suggest that a person involved in such a situation to file for separation and get somewhere safe. But that IS NOT FILING for a divorce!! Divorce is the issue concerning this thread, and God's WORD is specific about what is accepted and what is not.

I am currently involved in a situation just like this. My friend, a woman, been married almost 30 years and has finally realized due to the help from others (including her own children) that her husband is a complete Narcissist. They are very wealthy and have multiple homes and do not live in the same home. In fact, before they actually separated into different homes, my friend and her adult children asked me to help. So, I moved into the home with her and her husband (the children are in college or married with their own families).

Was not long until I could see him for what he really was. But I did notice something that irritated him beyond all comfort, my discussing God. He is a Jew whose family denied God and His existence years ago. I am a very muscular strong man who has taken over the farm chores and responsibilities during this period of helping my friend. I intimidate this man. This man has told me stupid things like he knows martial arts, he is a trained killer, etc when it's just him and myself alone. I just laugh at him and tell him but "you have no power over me because God has His hedge upon my life." I have rebuked him multiple times and you can see he is just more than mentally impaired, he does have an evil spirit or spirits in him.

Long story short, he does not want a divorce because he would lose 50% of the money and homes he tries to control. So, he moved out to one of their homes that is over a 2 hour drive away. Everything my friend does that involves leaving the farm property I go with her. She is never alone in case he is going to try something. And he has tried a few things already that resulted in the police being involved. This scared him. No way could he exist in a jail/prison cell. The inmates would eat him alive.

And now something miraculously has happened, in my opinion. God has finally intervened in this situation. This man in past 2 years has lost over 50 pounds and literally looks like he could die at any moment. He refuses that he is sick (Narcissist cannot admit they are weak) so we believe from his smoking/vaping he has cancer. It's now just a matter of time before he is no longer any kind of issue towards my friend. BUT, from my advice, she remained married and now God has finally intervened on her behalf. She is not a believer, but she knows the God I devote my life to protected me and has ultimately protected her. When this is finally over, I believe I will be able to bring her to God. BUT, I followed what God said concerning divorce in the Gospels. And she followed my advice. And now, God is going to reward her!!




So, I do believe in someone in this situation to separate themselves legally, but not to divorce. If they do as God has instructed, there are times He will change that horrible situation into something where we can give God the glory an honor for!!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The OP is about divorce not remarriage.

Divorce and remarriage usually go hand in hand. Besides, I am the creator of the thread. I am including that as part of the discussion. You can talk about that here because they are so closely related. It surely is related in the words of Jesus when he talks about divorce, as well. So feel free to talk about that here. I would not consider that to be off topic.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wouldn't assume anything.

Jesus says you will know a tree by it's fruit.
It is possible they may never truly accepted Christ as described in the Bible. They may have accepted another Jesus who makes room or an allowance for sin in their life or they accepted the Lord with the intention of never truly giving up their wicked ways.

Why should a woman have to remain legally married to an abusive/alcoholic man from who she is separated? Presumably you're saying that that was her one shot at love; too bad she got it wrong?

I am saying that in 99% of the cases like these it is highly probable that they never were truly a real believer and they would technically be an unbeliever and she could divorce or depart from him (According to 1 Corinthians 7:15). But if he was a genuine believer and he lived holy and did not justify sin at one time in his life and he treated her right, and he simply fell into this sin, then she is not allowed to technically divorce him unless he is unfaithful towards her. In this case, I would see a separation of living as being necessary, but not a divorce because Jesus and Paul do not make an allowances for this kind of thing. I will stick by what my Bible says and not go beyond it.

As for one shot at love?
I think people get into marriages with the wrong person sometimes.
I think they ignore that something is wrong before they are married.
Things like this do not normally surprise us out of the blue normally.
There are usually signs.
If something in the marriage was totally unexpected and a surprise (with no warning signs), we have to realize that this life is not our own but we are bought and paid for with a price and we have to answer the call to follow Jesus (Which does not always include our own personal happiness). We each go through different challenges in life for the Lord in giving glory to Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All Christians, without exception (unless they die immediately after their conversion) continue to sin after they believe in Christ. Any Christian who says he has not sinned after his conversion is a liar, and lying is on both lists of deadly sins.

So, what's the point in asserting a point that the Bible says, yes, but that not one human being in two thousand years has ever done, or will ever do. The only way to remain sinless after conversion is to go out and die.

Maybe somebody can manage it for a day, two, three, a week. Longer that that? Pfffft.
It never happened.

If anybody on this thread, including you, would like to lie before God and man and say that you have not sinned in all of the five or ten or whatever years since you converted to Christianity, go ahead. There is not one other person reading who will believe you. Because "The Bible says..." many may not come out and call you a liar out loud (I will), but every single person will know you are.

That's the problem. The Bible has this standard in it that it is impossible for human beings to meet. So when you raise it as though it were, you are essentially the Emperor in his new clothes...which are not real and everybody knows it.

What the Bible says on that subject is flat out not true. It's not doable. It is impossible for human beings to stop sinning even after conversion, so if that means that the Bible says that nobody is saved - and that IS what the text you are quoting says - then nobody is saved and we may as well all damn God, damn Christ and do as we please, because God's standard is brutal and impossible. Like telling a man to breathe water, when we can't.

If THAT is REALLY what God demands of us, then he is utterly useless to us, and evil, and we're all dead anyway, so we may as well stop pretending.

This is exactly the problem with the divorce law. Jesus really did say that to remarry after divorce is adultery. And when that is enforced as a law, as the Catholic Church has, it is essentially a condemnation of the unlucky to a lifetime of masturbation - which is just as deadly a sin as adultery. So the effect of what Jesus says, if taken literally and applied by a law, is that both parties in a divorce are damned to hell and they may as well walk away from God and do as they please.

And you know what? That is EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED in the Catholic Church. The Anglican Communion exists BECAUSE the Catholic Church would not grant a king a divorce (note, please,, they granted OTHER kings divorces, claiming the situation was different, but not him). So he left, took the Church of his land with him, and chopped off the heads of the old Church's bishops for good measure, for treason.

In the 21st Century, nobody chops off heads. They just leave the Church behind, because no, people who are unlucky in marriage are simply NOT going to give up sex for the rest of their lives, and no, they are not going to give up the hope of happily pairing off either. And if Jesus says they must, they will tell Jesus to pound sand. Regretfully, perhaps, but really.

That is the problem with the whole line of argument. People CANNOT, and WILL NOT give up sex for life because they divorced a crappy spouse, just exactly as Christians CANNOT, and DO NOT cease all sinning when they become Christians.

Any Christian who tells you he never sinned again after conversion is a damned liar. WE ALL KNOW THAT.
Stop pretending. It kills the Church.

Most of what you wrote here is off topic. You appear to be against what your own church believes. I also feel that you are in extreme disagreement with the words of Jesus and the Bible, as well.

So there is no need to have any further discussion with you on this matter.

May God's love shine upon you today.

 

[Vicomte13]

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9–10) (KJV 1900)

Yes, that is what it says. Either it’s wrong (the better answer), or it’s true and Christians are all damned, because they all sin again.

You have quoted this a couple of times. That’s what it says. Who reading this is willing to stand up and say: it’s true! I was born again of God, and I have never sinned again! (Remember, please, before you stand up and say that, that lying is itself a sin the Jesus said will earn you the Lake of Fire, so don't lie!)

I will bet that not one single person reading this will stand up and say: it’s true! I was born again of God, and I never sinned again.

No one - not one of you - can stand up and truly state that you have not sinned again, so then either you’re not really of God (if John is right), or you are, and John is wrong.

Time stamp 1:35 PM 12/19/2018. Waiting for the Christian who has been born again for a year or more to prove me wrong and declare that since he was born again, he never sinned again.

Remember: lying is a mortal sin, so don't answer in haste to "prove a point" if the point is not true: you'll be sinning by doing so.

I’ll be watching and waiting for a response. I’m going to be waiting a long time.

 

[Strong in Him]

I will stick by what my Bible says and not go beyond it.

That is the whole issue - what Scripture says, and what they understood it, at the time, to mean.

I do not believe that in the verses quoted Jesus was saying that it is ALWAYS wrong for us - especially when we have many circumstances today that the Bible does not even address.
Sure, I think he was saying that God doesn't like divorce, and it it not his ideal for us. God doesn't like any sin; rejecting him, and hurting, and failing to love, our neighbour is not God's ideal for us. He is love, and hates the effects that sin has on people. But he is also merciful.

 

[ColoRaydo]

What has been put forth on this thread:

1. It is better to die at the hands of an abusing spouse than get a divorce.

2. Adultery is justification for the death penalty.

3. If you are a Christian who is divorced and remarried you are in an unforgivable state of adultery and the only way out is to get another divorce in order to repent from the adultery and then repent from the second divorce, but that is another intentional sin so it may not be forgiven (grey area).

4. If you are a Christian and made an unwise decision at a very young age and got married and divorced- well too bad - it’s the single life and celibacy for you for the next 60 years or so. Sorry.

5. True Christians don’t sin. But on the rare and off chance they do, if they die before officially repenting, they are doomed. Even if they lived up to the two greatest commandments, it’s out the window until official repentance.

If there were any people reading this thread who were trying to learn about Christianity and struggling with the faith they are long gone. The legalistic zealots have chased them away.

 

[Vicomte13]

Most of what you wrote here is off topic. You appear to be against what your own church believes. I also feel that you are in extreme disagreement with the words of Jesus and the Bible, as well.

So there is no need to have any further discussion with you on this matter.

May God's love shine upon you today.

It is directly on target in every way. As was my previous post. Quoting the Bible where what is says is not done by ANYBODY ON EARTH and asserting that it's true MEANS that EVERYBODY ON EARTH is damned, according to the very text you quote.

SINCE all Christians sin again (and again and again, regardless of John's untrue statement to the contrary), we are left with a real world fact: what the Bible says about not sinning again isn't true. We do. We all do. So, what now?

Say that the comment is "off topic" to evade it and pretend that it doesn't exist and there isn't an elephant in the room. Well, there is.

We are Christians, and we sin again. Remarriage after divorce is just one of the examples where human beings sin again. It's not DIFFERENT from any other sinning again. (And NOT remarrying to remain true to the Scriptures, but masturbating instead is no better than remarrying and being an adulterer.)

I'm not disagreeing that Jesus said it's a sin, and that sexual immorality is a sin (and that masturbation - the lewd thoughts that accompany it - is the sin of sexual immorality) and that they are mortal sins. I'm not disputing that Jesus said that remarriage after divorce is adultery, which is sexual immorality. Nor am I disputing that John wrote that those who are born again of God don't sin again.

I am noting that everybody sins again. That is true. Deny it. (Remember that lying is a mortal sin.)
Don't speak in the ABSTRACT about some theoretical person out there who never sinned again. Step right up there and imperil your own immortal soul and declare that since you were born again in the Spirit of God, you have never once sinned again. Go ahead.

You're too smart to do that.

What we have here is a logical paradox, and it's right there in the Bible. I understand why you don't want to address it, but it's not going to go away (and neither am I, on this very point).

If John is true as written, then you're not really born of the Spirit of God, and neither am I, and neither is anybody else who is reading this because we all have sinned again. John says that means we are not born of the spirit of God. And that means we're damned, not saved.

So, then, why fuss at divorced people who remarried. Yes, they're adulterers, they'll be in Hell right alongside you and me, because you sinned again after you were born again, and so you're not saved. That's what that text you keep quoting says. It says that nobody reading this is saved, we're all damned and doomed.

Why, then, go on bothering the remarried divorcees. They're adulterers. So what? They're no MORE damned than you or I - that's what John is telling you.

I note that John is not God, and that what he said cannot square with what Jesus said. So I discard the words of John as contradicting Jesus, and therefore not the words that proceed from the mouth of God. John wrote what he wrote. It's not literally true.

If it is, then where is the Christian who will state before God and man right here that he NEVER SINNED AGAIN after he was born again. Where is he? Still waiting for him. (He's never going to show up - so either John is wrong, or he's right and we're all damned. Pick your poison: an imperfect John, or the surety of your own damnation because of what John said.)