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Featured The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:19 AM.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So, your doctrine of the final judgment comes from Deuteronomy?

    Did Jesus succeed, or fail, in the purpose for which he was sent? Verse below.

    1 John 4:14
    And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
     
  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Those are the only two choices based on which biblical view of the final judgment you hold.
    1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
    2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
    3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind
     
  3. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    But, this is itself a caricature of the God many believers see described in Scripture: A God who is both merciful and wrathful, just and holy, punishing the guilty, but gracious and loving, making a way for any who will take it to escape His punishment. God is not the monolithic, either-or character you seem to want to make Him. He is not the "angry volcano god" you despise, nor is He the God you want, who saves everybody regardless of what they have done or desire. God is more complex, more sophisticated, than either of these caricatures. He is the God who killed all but Noah and his family in the Great Flood, and burned to ash the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, who killed the firstborn of Egypt in the Exodus, and sent His Chosen People as His arm of judgment upon various pagan nations who'd set themselves as enemies of the Israelites, commanding His people to destroy these nations, man, woman and child. And He is also the God who in love and mercy sent His only Son to atone for the sins of mankind and through this atonement make a way - albeit a narrow, solitary one - for wicked people deserving of hell to be reconciled to Himself. It may be inconvenient; it may be frustrating; it may require setting aside the God you want for the God that is; but the God of the Bible is not an "angry volcano god" nor is He the God who gives everyone a "get out of hell free" card.

    John 3:36
    36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

    Matthew 7:13-14
    13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
    14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


    Romans 2:5-11
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
    9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
    10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God.


    Matthew 25:46
    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Psalm 1:5-6
    5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
    6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, But the way of the wicked will perish.
     
  4. NomNomPizza

    NomNomPizza Active Member

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    1 2 and 3 seem all incorrect to me
    Like people debate between these but they are all wrong to begin with
     
  5. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    But look at your first option: It assumes that the "genocide of the majority of humankind" was planned, ordained and/or orchestrated by God. But this assumes a deterministic view of things, it seems to me, that no Christian is at all obliged to accept. God knows what freely-choosing people will do, and orders His plans accordingly, but this foreknowledge does not necessitate causation. And, as I pointed out, God cannot be guilty of the human evil of genocide. It is a category error to assign to God a sin of humanity. God is not a human; not even close. His role as Creator confers upon Him unique prerogatives no human can claim, one of which is the right to do with the universe and all that it contains exactly as He pleases, giving and taking life as He wills. Your first option, then, is, as far as I'm concerned, so flawed as to be no proper option at all.

    The second option you put forward also suffers from a sort of Strawman flavor. As well, it appears to assume a deterministic state of affairs, as your first option does.

    Your third option cannot be synthesized with all that God's word says on the matter of salvation and final judgment.

    And so, as I said, you offer no option that properly characterizes the view I hold of God's redemptive plan as I encounter it in Scripture.
     
  6. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    All your verse proves is that there is no other Savior.
    Your conclusions are faulty,
    your indoctrination, obvious.
    Isaiah 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case;
    Yes, let them take counsel together.
    Who has declared this from ancient time?
    Who has told it from that time?
    Have not I, the Lord?
    And there is no other God besides Me,
    A just God and a Savior;
    There is none besides Me.


    Deuteronomy was included because God has always demanded a choice to be made, even by
    Christ Himself. Hence, the statement in blue "Death is a choice", as laid out repeatedly in the
    narrative of scripture.

    Yehoshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom you
    will serve
    ; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or
    the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

    Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other,
    or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So, Jesus died to save us from God?
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What is your view?
     
  9. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Are you claiming it wasn't?

    Saint Steven said:
    Those are the only two choices based on which biblical view of the final judgment you hold.
    1) Damnationism = The plan for the genocide of the majority of humankind
    2) Annihilationism = The plan to incinerate the majority of humankind
    3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) = God's plan for the redemption of all humankind
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Have you ever seen this?

    Gospel in Chairs: A Beautiful Gospel 2015 Brad Jersak

    Brad Jersak's 2015 version of the Gospel in Chairs, originally composed by Fr. Anthony Carbo and borrowed by others like Steve Robinson and Brian Zahnd (who retitled it 'The Beautiful Gospel').
     
  11. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Remnant Theology is well grounded in scripture, and foreshadowed in many ways throughout.
    You ignoring it doesn't make it go away. Annihilation is just a dramatic way of saying Death.
    Everlasting life is not your birthright, it is an inheritance gained by adoption through Christ.
     
  12. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    No, God incarnate died to save us from ourselves and the just punishment our wickedness deserves.
     
  13. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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    I am and even explained briefly why.
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Kind of like the playground bully of the universe? That's flattering. (slanderous)
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Right. Blame the victims. I have heard that one before.

    Saint Steven said:
    So, Jesus died to save us from God?
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Who designed hell?
     
  17. Jake Arsenal

    Jake Arsenal Member

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    Let's avoid presuppositions as to the overall purpose of scripture. Is there an underlying theme to all of scripture? Is there a particular phrase or idea that is repeated throughout the entirety of scripture?

    Jeremiah 9:6 Their dwelling place is in the midst of deceit;
    Through deceit they refuse to know Me, says the Lord.

    Jeremiah 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well.
    Was this not to know Me? says the Lord.

    Jeremiah 24:7 Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the Lord;
    and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me
    with their whole heart.

    Jeremiah 9:24
    But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.


    Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Isaiah 49:26
    And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

    2 Peter 3:18 Grow in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
    To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.


    Here is a short list of scriptures which express something the Author wants us to know:
    Exodus 6:7, Exodus 7:5, Exodus 7:17, Exodus 8:22, Exodus 10:2, Exodus 14:4, Exodus 14:18, Exodus 16:12, Exodus 29:46, Exodus 31:13, Deuteronomy 29:6, 1 Kings 20:13, 1 Kings 20:28, Isaiah 49:23, Isaiah 60:16, Ezekiel 6:7, Ezekiel 6:10, Ezekiel 6:13, Ezekiel 6:14, Ezekiel 7:4, Ezekiel 7:9, Ezekiel 7:27, Ezekiel 11:10, Ezekiel 11:12, Ezekiel 12:15, Ezekiel 12:16, Ezekiel 12:20, Ezekiel 13:9, Ezekiel 13:14, Ezekiel 13:21, Ezekiel 13:23, Ezekiel 14:8, Ezekiel 15:7, Ezekiel 16:62, Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20, Ezekiel 20:26, Ezekiel 20:38, Ezekiel 20:42, Ezekiel 20:44, Ezekiel 22:16, Ezekiel 23:49, Ezekiel 24:24, Ezekiel 24:27, Ezekiel 25:5, Ezekiel 25:7, Ezekiel 25:11, Ezekiel 25:17, Ezekiel 26:6, Ezekiel 28:22, Ezekiel 28:23, Ezekiel 28:24, Ezekiel 28:26, Ezekiel 29:6, Ezekiel 29:9, Ezekiel 29:16, Ezekiel 29:21, Ezekiel 30:8, Ezekiel 30:19, Ezekiel 30:25, Ezekiel 30:26, Ezekiel 32:15, Ezekiel 33:29, Ezekiel 34:27, Ezekiel 34:30, Ezekiel 35:4, Ezekiel 35:9, Ezekiel 35:12, Ezekiel 35:15, Ezekiel 36:11, Ezekiel 36:23, Ezekiel 36:38, Ezekiel 37:6, Ezekiel 37:13, Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:6, Ezekiel 39:7, Ezekiel 39:22, Ezekiel 39:28, Joel 2:27, Joel 3:17, etc. (know that I am the Lord)
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    So, Jesus died to save us from God?
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Did you really write that? (seems so)

    What is the Bible?
    What is the purpose of the Bible?
    Why are these questions taboo?
     
  20. GOD Shines Forth!

    GOD Shines Forth! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As to 1), do you have other sources of information about God and His possibilities beside Scripture? So far Nature has been silent on the fate of unbelievers.

    As to 2), you can take it to the bank that sentiment resides in every single fallen child of Adam...not just the saved ones.
     
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