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Featured The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Saint Steven, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:19 AM.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    He already has.

    Romans 3:24 NIV
    and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
     
  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What does this Bible say?

    1 John 2:2
    He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Romans 11:32
    For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    Titus 2:11
    For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

    1 Timothy 4:10
    That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    We partially agree on this point.
    Notice the different results of Adam one and Adam two. And to whom they apply.
    (note: verse nineteen says "the many", not just "many". The many = all)

    Romans 5:18-19
    Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
    so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
    19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
    so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
     
  4. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    The "true" gospel?
    The "true" gospel says, believe or burn? That's not a choice, that is spiritual extortion. Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather. An offer you can't refuse.
     
  5. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Nope, the atonement was for everyone. Unless you are accusing Jesus of an insufficient payment.

    1 John 2:2
    He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    Romans 11:32
    For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

    Titus 2:11
    For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

    1 Timothy 4:10
    That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
     
  6. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    The opposite is true as well.
    No way to arrive at either Damnationism or Annihilationism except by picking and choosing scripture.

    Damnationists always want us to explain their half dozen scriptures, but refuse to explain our two dozen scriptures. Picking and choosing? Indeed.
     
  7. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Seriously?

    Who created hell?
    Are you claiming that hell occurred naturally? Who designed a place where humankind could be discarded like trash to burn forever with no hope of escape and no way to even die in the inferno? Maybe there is a better way to look at this.

    Mark 9:49
    Everyone will be salted with fire.

    Malachi 3:2
    But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Exactly. What is claimed about "hell" is not a solution to sin. It only makes it endless.

    Even sinful humans have correctional institutions to deal with offenders. Do we know something that God doesn't? (not likely)
     
  9. NomNomPizza

    NomNomPizza Active Member

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    Basically Lake of fire was made for fallen Angels
    Satan attempt to take humans with him and succeed in causing men to sin.
    God provided sacrifice to kingle his own wrath and justify his anger nature so he can forgive sins by becoming a man himself and paying the price for a man.
    The price is paid for all men.
    Men need to be born again of Spirit because they died spiritually.

    If man believes the gospel he is sealed with seed of God.
    If man doesn't believe he is left alone to his demise.

    Both are going to die anyways.
    Both are risen from the grave and given resurrected bodies.
    Because the first had seed of God inside of him he is resurrected to have everlasting relationship with God.
    The second is resurrected to have everlasting destiny with the fallen Angels in Lake of Fire.

    Men have no excuse , price was paid for believer and unbeliever.
    They are equally risen from the dead because Jesus conquered death and has power to do it.
    What distinct them is if they were born of spirit of God or not.
     
  10. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    So the sin of first Adam automatically condemns everyone. But the atonement of the second Adam, who's actually God, is limited.

    That sounds like Satan's plan will be more successful.
     
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  11. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    I find it interesting that the Lake of Fire is only mentioned twice in one book that many find questionable in verious ways. It's not known for sure who wrote it. It was written after the rest of the Bible sometime around 95 AD. It's not certain whether it's describing events that will happen or that already happened. There's all kinds of interpretations of all the strange abstract apocalyptic imagery and so on.
     
  12. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    Exactly. If the damnationists are correct, God created a whole bunch of folks and a small percentage of those are redeemed. That's not what anyone would consider a success. But, it assumes that God's sovereignty is ultimately subjective to the human will. God wishes all could be saved, but just can't get it done.

    The idea that the 1st Adam is the source of universal condemnation, but the 2nd Adam is limited just highlights how much power humans, or one human, has. Strange.

    Yeah, under this framework, Satan comes out with more chess pieces than God.
     
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  13. NomNomPizza

    NomNomPizza Active Member

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    nah only postmillenials think so
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Thanks for outlining your views on this. I will work my way through it.

    Based on your quote above... If God was human, we would say that he has anger management issues and needs a good therapist. Right?

    Jesus tells us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies. Therefore, the common view of God's wrath and anger don't fit.

    Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Explain what this means. Is this hell?
    If so, you have presented the Damnationist, or Annihilationist view. Yet you claim you somehow didn't fit those descriptions. How?
     
  16. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus Loves You

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    Postmillenialism is in regard to chapter 20. What I'm talking about is what's written before that regarding the mark of the beast and flying scorpions etc. Many think the Beast was Nero and I'm sure there's quite a few takes on the flying scorpions.
     
  17. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I wasn't insulted, nor do I need an explanation for what you hear from damnations. As I clearly
    said, that was a totally misapplied and poorly though out response to what I posted, and re-posted.
    If you are too ill-informed to discuss adoption and inheritance, or do not understand how it applies
    to the topic, we can come back to it another time. I was too tired, especially after watching that
    comedy special video that you posted that I found to be without inspiration, only to see that
    statement; as if you had given any thought a forehand. As you have now admitted, it is a rote
    response of a UR, who can't defend his beliefs outside certain indoctrinational parameters.
     
  18. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What do you like best about hell?

    I notice that Damnationists will fight tooth and claw to preserve it. I was more than willing to let it go if there was a reasonable alternative. And there was.

    Weren't you indoctrinated about hell? There is more in the Bible about the redemption of humankind than about the global genocide the church insists on.
     
  19. Minister Monardo

    Minister Monardo Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The limits to God's mercy have been clearly stated.
    James 2:
    12
    So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
    13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy.
    Mercy triumphs over judgment.
    It is by measure, measured back in return. God is not being cruel to send a merciless
    tyrant to perdition without mercy. Annihilation is a drama word for Death. Eternal
    Life is a Gift from God, and the inheritance of his adopted children through Christ.
    Individual choices matter, or judgment is a farce, which is what this UR doctrine
    makes of the righteous judgment of God.

    Matthew 7:
    2
    For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use,
    it will be measured back to you.
    Psalm 18:
    With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful;
    With a blameless man You will show Yourself blameless;
    26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
    And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.
    27 For You will save the humble people,
    But will bring down haughty looks.


    When did reap what you sow become a lost concept?
    Galatians 6:8 NIV Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;
    whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
    John 3:7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
     
  20. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Silly me. . .I meant post #9.

    Is it convincing to you?
     
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