The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[renniks]

I believe he was referring to Calvinism, which teaches that only a preselected few called the elect will be able to believe, and the rest, which is most, were preselected to be tormented for eternity.

Universalism is just Calvinism with universal atonement instead of limited atonement. God just drags everyone elected in, whether they want to come or not. Same as Calvinism.

 

[renniks]

Yes, and chosen by definition. To choose one, is to not choose, or reject, another. Quite significant when applied to our eternal destiny. The elect being chosen for life and the "lost" being chosen for ECT.

Where do you get that all are chosen? The chosen are simply those who choose Christ. Hence "many are called, few are chosen." But you can't translate that to "Everyone is chosen" just because you want Christianity to be more inclusive.

 

[Saint Steven]

Universalism is just Calvinism with universal atonement instead of limited atonement. God just drags everyone elected in, whether they want to come or not. Same as Calvinism.

Not sure why you keep talking about Calvinism...

But this verse describes what you are saying. Jesus will draw (literally, drag) all people to himself.

John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Why did God send his son into the world? Condemnation or salvation?

Personally, I really don't know for sure. Wasn't the world already condemned?

 

[Saint Steven]

Where do you get that all are chosen? The chosen are simply those who choose Christ. Hence "many are called, few are chosen." But you can't translate that to "Everyone is chosen" just because you want Christianity to be more inclusive.

Christianity should be more inclusive. Why would you make it exclusive?
The elect are firstfruits. All will be made alive. But each in turn. Christ was first, we follow.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Universalism is just Calvinism with universal atonement instead of limited atonement. God just drags everyone elected in, whether they want to come or not. Same as Calvinism.

One of the biggest complaints against UR is that people need to be terrified of eternal torment. But on the other hand there's this notion of UR being God robbing people of the opportunity of eternal torment. The thing is, UR doesn't necessarily say there's no hell to be thrown into. It's just saying hell isn't an eternal torture chamber. Even if hell is a place of correction and refinement through spiritual fire, that would still be scary enough for me if I wasn't saved. Some people are so terrified of just earthly prison, they commit suicided over being sentenced to one.

 

[Saint Steven]

Personally, I really don't know for sure. Wasn't the world already condemned?

Yes, the world was ALREADY condemned. But that is not why Christ was sent. He was not sent to carry out judgment due to condemnation, but resolve the condemnation through salvation. We owed - he paid. Amazing love. (Romans 5:8)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Why did God send his son into the world? Condemnation or salvation?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Where do you get that all are chosen? The chosen are simply those who choose Christ. Hence "many are called, few are chosen." But you can't translate that to "Everyone is chosen" just because you want Christianity to be more inclusive.

That depends if that means many are called but few are chosen for discipleship and ministry. Like the few, the Marines.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, the world was ALREADY condemned. But that is not why Christ was sent. He was not sent to carry out judgment due to condemnation, but resolve the condemnation through salvation. We owed - he paid. Amazing love. (Romans 5:8)

I can understand your position on this Steve, and I think it comes partly because you have a big heart for people. I wish there were more who cared about others at the level that you do.

I, too, recognize that the New Testament writers share with us Jesus' amazing love, but I will admit that I get thrown by all of the verses that seem (to me) to imply that there are strings attached and caveats to any universal application of God's amazing love. But.....it would be grand if my present understanding is simply incorrect and everyone is transformed for Eternal Life in Christ at some point in the future.

 

[Saint Steven]

I can understand your position on this Steve, and I think it comes partly because you have a big heart for people. I wish there were more who cared about others at the level that you do.

I, too, recognize that the New Testament writers share with us Jesus' amazing love, but I will admit that I get thrown by all of the verses that seem (to me) to imply that there are strings attached and caveats to any universal application of God's amazing love. But.....it would be grand if my present understanding is simply incorrect and everyone is transformed for Eternal Life in Christ at some point in the future.

Thanks. That is a very kind thing to say about me. And yes, I am very hopeful about the future of humankind. Those God created in his own image, his own likeness.

Simply put, a good father doesn't put his kids in the oven to discipline them. Those who subscribe to eternal conscious torment have to paint humanity as an ugly worthless lot that do not even deserve to be rescued. They can barely imagine why God would save anyone. Such a sad way to view humankind. It colors the way they look at others as well. Why be nice to someone for whom God's wrath and punishment awaits? (already deemed worthless in their eyes)

To accept the possibility of UR puts a refreshing view on life. I can see someone and know that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess (willingly and joyfully) that Jesus Christ is Lord. What a day of victory that will be when God heals the nations. From every tribe and tongue. Ultimate Redemption.

Have a great day buddy. Thanks for your wonderfully optimistic post. A breath of fresh air after breathing the sulfurous smoke (from hell) that hangs over this thread. (cough)

 

[Saint Steven]

One of the biggest complaints against UR is that people need to be terrified of eternal torment. ...

Was it you that launched the topic about whether people would be Christians if there was no afterlife?

I was stunned by the response by Christians. The overwhelming response was to say, "No. if there is no afterlife, I would not be a Christian." Thus claiming there is no earthly good in following Christ. Stunned!

 

[renniks]

Not sure why you keep talking about Calvinism...

But this verse describes what you are saying. Jesus will draw (literally, drag) all people to himself.

John 12:32 NIV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Because you keep talking like a calvinist.

 

[renniks]

That depends if that means many are called but few are chosen for discipleship and ministry. Like the few, the Marines.

No, it's in the context of salvation.

 

[renniks]

Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

What you said doesn't even match what the verse says.
Christ is the first fruits. Those who belong to him are believers.

 

[Ceallaigh]

No, it's in the context of salvation.

Yes it is. I wasn't paying enough attention.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Because you keep talking like a calvinist.

Partially. The other side of Calvinism is the the majority of humanity is going to be thrown into an eternal torture chamber. But I know what you're saying, UR eliminates free will. But even free will is limited to two options. And really with UR as I see it working, a person can resist God as long as they want to in the afterlife. But the belief is that eventually there will be full reconciliation.

How do you interpret "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself."?

 

[renniks]

Partially. The other side of Calvinism is the the majority of humanity is going to be thrown into an eternal torture chamber. But I know what you're saying, UR eliminates free will. But even free will is limited to two options. And really with UR as I see it working, a person can resist God as long as they want to in the afterlife. But the belief is that eventually there will be full reconciliation.

How do you interpret "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself."?

I'm Arminian. So I interpret it as a universal calling, quickening, awakening, conviction, whatever word you want to use sent to all people. We aren't obligated to respond, to pursue God or Truth, but we are free to do so.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Was it you that launched the topic about whether people would be Christians if there was no afterlife?

I was stunned by the response by Christians. The overwhelming response was to say, "No. if there is no afterlife, I would not be a Christian." Thus claiming there is no earthly good in following Christ. Stunned!

Yep that was me. And that's what the question was about, the joy of being a Christian here and now.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I'm Arminian. So I interpret it as a universal calling, quickening, awakening, conviction, whatever word you want to use sent to all people. We aren't obligated to respond, to pursue God or Truth, but we are free to do so.

Do you think once unbelievers end up in hell, they'll wish they had a second chance? Or do you think they'll prefer to stay in hell?

 

[Jake Arsenal]

The ultimate statement of biblical context. Your view of the final judgment determines your definition of what the Bible actually is. What's yours?

Since this statement is the foundation of your OP, I have asked you to justify it from scripture. If you are unable to do so, the very premise of your entire "wake up call" is flawed and serves only to gender strife(2 Timothy 2:23-24) because precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little(Isaiah 28:10).

Does the Bible reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, or is it a plan for the genocide/incineration of humanity? Depends on who you ask, I suppose.

Some people believe they can determine God's plan through careful study of scripture, but this only causes division and strife.(2 Timothy 2:23-26, 2 Timothy 3:1-9, Romans 10:2-3) The purpose of the Bible is to lead you to the knowledge of God(the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ) because God desires mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.(Hosea 6:6, Matthew 12:7, Matthew 9:13)

Below is a short list of scriptures(by no means exhaustive) which relate the purpose of scripture and the purpose of most of God's actions recorded in scripture(that ye may know and believe me, know that I am the Lord).
Exodus 6:7, Exodus 7:5, Exodus 7:17, Exodus 8:22, Exodus 10:2, Exodus 14:4, Exodus 14:18, Exodus 16:12, Exodus 29:46, Exodus 31:13, Deuteronomy 29:6, 1 Kings 20:13, 1 Kings 20:28, Isaiah 49:23, Isaiah 60:16, Ezekiel 6:7, Ezekiel 6:10, Ezekiel 6:13, Ezekiel 6:14, Ezekiel 7:4, Ezekiel 7:9, Ezekiel 7:27, Ezekiel 11:10, Ezekiel 11:12, Ezekiel 12:15, Ezekiel 12:16, Ezekiel 12:20, Ezekiel 13:9, Ezekiel 13:14, Ezekiel 13:21, Ezekiel 13:23, Ezekiel 14:8, Ezekiel 15:7, Ezekiel 16:62, Ezekiel 20:12, Ezekiel 20:20, Ezekiel 20:26, Ezekiel 20:38, Ezekiel 20:42, Ezekiel 20:44, Ezekiel 22:16, Ezekiel 23:49, Ezekiel 24:24, Ezekiel 24:27, Ezekiel 25:5, Ezekiel 25:7, Ezekiel 25:11, Ezekiel 25:17, Ezekiel 26:6, Ezekiel 28:22, Ezekiel 28:23, Ezekiel 28:24, Ezekiel 28:26, Ezekiel 29:6, Ezekiel 29:9, Ezekiel 29:16, Ezekiel 29:21, Ezekiel 30:8, Ezekiel 30:19, Ezekiel 30:25, Ezekiel 30:26, Ezekiel 32:15, Ezekiel 33:29, Ezekiel 34:27, Ezekiel 34:30, Ezekiel 35:4, Ezekiel 35:9, Ezekiel 35:12, Ezekiel 35:15, Ezekiel 36:11, Ezekiel 36:23, Ezekiel 36:38, Ezekiel 37:6, Ezekiel 37:13, Ezekiel 38:23, Ezekiel 39:6, Ezekiel 39:7, Ezekiel 39:22, Ezekiel 39:28, Joel 2:27, Joel 3:17, Ephesians 4:13, Ephesians 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:6, 2 Corinthians 2:14, Colossians 1:10, 2 Peter 1:2, 2 Peter 1:3, etc.

If you believe the purpose of the Bible is to reveal God's plan for the redemption of humankind, please share some scriptures that express that intent. Your unwillingness to defend the foundational premise of the doctrine you teach only further displays your error.

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;