The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

We partially agree on this point.
Notice the different results of Adam one and Adam two. And to whom they apply.
(note: verse nineteen says "the many", not just "many". The many = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

That would depend on what translation you use. Not all say, "the many".

I think you need to go back to verse 12

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Note that death does not naturally pass on to all men but death is upon all men because we all have sinned. Romans 3:23; Isaiah 53:6.

This is the inheritance of the sin nature.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

What does this Bible say?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

He is the Saviour of all people because anyone can choose to believe, but not all are saved, read John 3.

You need to take special note of 1 Timothy 4:10, which you quoted.

Jn 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jn 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Context for 1 John 2:2

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Context for Romans 11:32.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Does the grace that you preach teach men this? Context.

So Chist is indeed the saviour of all men, for there is no other way to be saved, but not all are saved by him because they would not believe.

If you return to John 3 you will see that these are his words and not mine.

 

[Ceallaigh]

"Heard of that?" - yes, but it is not truth. The bible is truth. And the bible says God, repented, changed His mind, wish He had not created man.

Gen 6:5-6 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why would a God who planned, controlled everything, repent, or change His mind. Because He would have "known" about it.

As for all the words using "predestined", salvation was predestined, the act of salvation was predestined, not the people who would choose it.

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. Psalm 147:5

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
1 John 3:20

 

[Ceallaigh]

Just read your Bible, mate.

Jesus said,

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

That's the go to passage for many. But I don't think every warning from Jesus = going to hell as the only consequence that exist. People can be spiritually alive or spiritually dead while they're physically alive.

If you don't believe me, believe him for he not only speaks the truth, he is the truth.

One of his truths is that people will misunderstand him.

Satan is totally unsuccessful for his ambition and aim was to replace God. He has not and cannot do that.

Don't shift the goalpost to something else.

You said: "The true gospel says, there is no hope. You are already prepared for the fire, not by God, but by Satan who deceives the whole world. It is he who prepared mankind for the fire. That's Satan's plan, not God's."

To which I said: That sounds like Satan's plan will be more successful.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Sounds like one of those "warm fuzzies" men like to tell themselves as an ego boost to me.

The Lord Jesus Christ has always been fully God and fully human, eternally begotten of the Father. All things were created through, by and for Him. He did not become human so He could share in our life, He has both natures so we can share in His life. It is through His humanity that He is able to fully explain God to us.

At least you got the first four words right ... "Scripture is about God"

According to the Bible, it's God who has "warm fuzzies" for mankind.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 1 John 3:1

And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.. 1 John 4:16

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:37-39

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20

Give thanks to the God of heaven. His love endures forever. Psalms 136:26

But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions-it is by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5

But you, Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness. Psalms 86:15

Perhaps John and Paul had ego issues. Not to mention David. He talked about himself and God's love for him and us all throughout the Psalms.

"God" appears 4,094 times and "man" appears 3,323 times in the KJV.

 

[sawdust]

According to the Bible, it's God who has "warm fuzzies" for mankind.

God is Love. It has nothing to do with you or I at all. He would be love no matter what we are or what we do, or for that matter, whether we even existed.

Again, it is about who and what God is ... not you, not me. Time to forget abut yourself and concentrate on the word.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. Psalm 147:5

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
1 John 3:20

You have to be careful when using scripture, to get the whole picture, not to just present an idea you may have learned or been told.

God's knowledge is far above ours, in that respect it is infinite, we are finite He is infinite.

But let's look at the scriptures, but let's clarify one thing first. 1 John 3:20 has nothing to do with God's infinite knowledge, it is stating the fact that God knows our hearts. Knowing one's heart is far removed from the idea of knowing the future, and every step that man will make.

The idea that God, controls our every step is not in line with scripture. I am sure you can pull a few verses together, but they can for the most part be easily explained away.

Let's see some examples of God changing His mind:

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

God wished He did not create man.

1Sa 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

God wished He did not make Saul king.

2Sa 12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

The LORD could not bless David as much as he had wished, due to David's sin.

But God does judge between the just and unjust. Those who refuse to receive Him, He sends delusion.

2Th 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

But those who receive Him become His sons, His Elect ones.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

They are selected (Elect) due to their humility to accept their sins need cleansing.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Note Joh 14:23, there is a man step in believing, "if a man love me, He will keep my Word". Which is the opposite of those who perish in 2Th 2:10-12 they had no love of the truth.

Salvation is a choice. A choice to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, or to follow the dictates of the flesh. It is not predetermined. There are however things in the Word of God that are predetermined.

i.e. The beast of Revelation, the cross was also predetermined,

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

God also puts limits on man:

Act 17:26-27 And he has made of one blood all the nations of men living on all the face of the earth, ordering their times and the limits of their lands, So that they might make search for God, in order, if possible, to get knowledge of him and make discovery of him, though he is not far from every one of us:

The limits God does put on circumstance, are done with the purpose of causing man to "search for him", and "find him". He does not choose beforehand a special group of people to save and damn the rest.

We see even following the controversial scriptures that are the centerpiece of the Predestination Camps view, that Paul says.

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to let his wrath and his power be seen, for a long time put up with the vessels of wrath which were ready for destruction:

It is a process, God reaches out to man, man either accepts or rejects God, they become a vessel of wrath in that rejection.

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

If God does not tempt anyone, he certainly does not "make them sin".

 

[Ceallaigh]

God is Love. It has nothing to do with you or I at all. He would be love no matter what we are or what we do, or for that matter, whether we even existed.

Again, it is about who and what God is ... not you, not me. Time to forget about yourself and concentrate on the word.

You don't seem to understand that it's not about thinking of oneself. It's about thinking of mankind whom we're commanded to love equally to our love of God. Why would you equate love and concern for others with being self centered?

Born again Christians who contemplate the concept of universal reconciliation, aren't thinking about themselves, because they're already reconciled. They are thinking about others. And they're also thinking about their Lord and how certain doctrines might be representing him.

 

[Saint Steven]

Apparently you only take a very few verses literally.

On the contrary. Quite the opposite. I have only opened the door to the idea that the Bible might not be completely literal. Finding balance is key, I suppose. Rejecting an OT story that claims something wrong about God's character would be a good place to start.

The elect are those who believe.

Yes, and chosen by definition. To choose one, is to not choose, or reject, another. Quite significant when applied to our eternal destiny. The elect being chosen for life and the "lost" being chosen for ECT.

 

[Saint Steven]

We were talking about scripture which, is not invisible.

Rom. 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ.

Christ is the Word made flesh, scripture is the record of Him.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[Saint Steven]

Tell me, if I was unwittingly rushing headlong toward a cliff and you warned me of the danger, would that make you a gangster godfather? If I were clinging desperately to that cliff and you offered me your hand to safety, would that make you a gangster godfather?

Man's plight is certain, through Christ, God offers a helping hand. Will you take it?

Who made the dangerous cliff? (hell)

 

[Saint Steven]

That would depend on what translation you use. Not all say, "the many".

I think you need to go back to verse 12

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Note that death does not naturally pass on to all men but death is upon all men because we all have sinned. Romans 3:23; Isaiah 53:6.

This is the inheritance of the sin nature.

Now that you backed up, are you ready to go forward?

Saint Steven said: ↑
We partially agree on this point.
Notice the different results of Adam one and Adam two. And to whom they apply.
(note: verse nineteen says "the many", not just "many". The many = all)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

Does the grace that you preach teach men this? Context.

This topic is about the context of the whole book. Have you told us yet what the book is about? Is it about God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or something else? (genocide for the majority)

 

[Saint Steven]

Sounds like one of those "warm fuzzies" men like to tell themselves as an ego boost to me.

Why?
Because we are all just worthless scum to God? The day he created us, he found his creation to be good. (and then he created woman - lol) Sorry, it was such a good setup.

MMXX said: ↑
Scripture is about God's relationship with humankind. To the point where God became humankind.

 

[Saint Steven]

The Lord Jesus Christ has always been fully God and fully human, eternally begotten of the Father. All things were created through, by and for Him. He did not become human so He could share in our life, He has both natures so we can share in His life. It is through His humanity that He is able to fully explain God to us.

Not here to share our life?
Know as a friend of sinners. Accused of being a glutton and drunkard due to his choice of friends. Called Zacheus (a traitor tax collector) out of a tree to have lunch at his house. Not here to share our life? A man of sorrows, acquanted with grief. Not here to share our life?

 

[Saint Steven]

Just read your Bible, mate.

Jesus said,

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

If you don't believe me, believe him for he not only speaks the truth, he is the truth.

Satan is totally unsuccessful for his ambition and aim was to replace God. He has not and cannot do that.

Your post pretty well proves the point of the OP. The "narrow way... and few there be that find it." And the broad way leads to what? And what sort of plan is this? Redemption, or genocide?

 

[Saint Steven]

Agreed. That would be the most beautiful consummation. ...

Yes. And I believe God loves a good story. The Bible is full of them. Why would the story of humankind be any different?

What would the God who has taught us to love our enemies do about his own enemies? Unleash his wrath? Or unleash his mercy? Foster correction and healing rather than pointless eternal punishment. (leaving the problem of sin unresolved forever) What a tragic and ugly end to the story. And we should enjoy heaven knowing what is happening in the basement? (sickening to me)

Wake up, people!

 

[Saint Steven]

He is the Saviour of all people because anyone can choose to believe, but not all are saved, read John 3.

How can God be the Savior of all people if only a handful will be saved? The would be like declaring a sports team to be world champions when they were actually in fourth place. Didn't even make the playoffs.

This scripture actually makes "those who believe" a subset of the "all people" who are being saved.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Saint Steven]

Context for Romans 11:32.

What about it?
All means all. Everyone is either a Jew, or a gentile. All means all. And everyone means everyone. Who are you claiming is not included?

Romans 11:28-32 NIV
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you return to John 3 you will see that these are his words and not mine.

Why did God send his son into the world? Condemnation or salvation?

John 3:17 NIV
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.