The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

[Jimlarmore]

Wow if anyone need proof of the delusional view of the sinless perfectionist here it is. If you disagree with the sinless perfectionism theory then you are a allowing lasciviousness into your life.

Usually when someone makes excuses for sin it is because they want to make it an ok thing to do. I've never found one text that tells me it's ok to sin from cover to cover in my Bible. Maybe you can point out one RC.

Statements like "behavior doesn't matter" or " all things are not profiteable" but we can still do them and stay saved leads one to think that sin is unavoidable yet my Bible says something quite differently.

Yet all of those we have written too in this regard have sin in their lives and are no where near to sinless perfection. God allows the escape from their sin if we but let Him yet they don't let Him or they would be without sin yet those who acknowledge that they sin and are not promised sinless perfection in this life are lascivious. Mind boggling!

For those who don't know what lascivious means:

1. Given to or expressing lust; lecherous.
2. Exciting sexual desires; salacious.

It's the Bible that makes a comparison to sexual sin or adultery when it describes Israel's apostate activities. In this text we see how Jude uses the word Lasciviousness and how it is applied.

3

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.



My statements are aimed at those who hold to OSAS like beliefs. In this belief the grace of Christ is taken to mean we can go back to sinning and still remain saved. Jude basically says the same thing here. Men who were once saints turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness.

Your condemnation of my assessement does not change the truth RC for after all the truth remains the truth no matter what.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Eila]

Your not dead to it if you sin with impunity and fail to confess and repent of it. I see spiritual adultery in the new covenant as still sinning while claiming the blood of Christ. Just like comitting real adultery while being married and claiming to love your spouse is a fake love relationship and a fake claim. Harboring sin while claiming the blood of Christ is a fake love and fake relationship as well. You are right Christ does love us more than a man and a woman loves one another which makes this even more valid. The premise and validity of the comparison is appropo sister. Christ said "Go and sin no more". It is never ok to sin.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

You are dead to sin if you are born again. Whether or not you decide to let sin have any power over you is another issue. Letting sin have power over you doesn't make you any less dead to sin. Jesus made us dead to sin and the Bible says we are to consider ourselves dead to sin because of what Jesus did.

Romans 6 "8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Of course it is not okay to sin. Because I have been given the gift of His righteousness doesn't mean it is okay to sin. It is never good to sin.

 

[reddogs]

You are dead to sin if you are born again. Whether or not you decide to let sin have any power over you is another issue. Letting sin have power over you doesn't make you any less dead to sin. Jesus made us dead to sin and the Bible says we are to consider ourselves dead to sin because of what Jesus did.

Romans 6 "8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace."

Of course it is not okay to sin. Because I have been given the gift of His righteousness doesn't mean it is okay to sin. It is never good to sin.

Eila,

Would you agree that "dead to sin if you are born again" is the same as 'sin no longer has a hold on you', that you have no desire to sin?

 

[Eila]

Eila,

Would you agree that "dead to sin if you are born again" is the same as 'sin no longer has a hold on you', that you have no desire to sin?

I would agree that sin no longer has a hold on you, but we can choose to let sin reign. That doesn't change the fact that sin doesn't has a hold on us. But it is important to consider that we must look at this from the standpoint of the cross and not from the standpoint of our works. Our works don't determine if we are dead to sin. Jesus made us dead to it already. Acting perfect doesn't make me dead to sin. The Bible said Jesus made us dead to sin and sin no longer has a hold on us. The ministry of the Spirit is to change us from people who act unrighteously and change us to be more like Christ. The Holy Spirit removes the desire to sin as we grow. We will reach a state of sinlessness though? No. The Bible makes it clear that we are not righteous. Even if we acted perfectly we would fall short of God's standard for righteousness. Jesus was the only one who met God's standard and He is the only one who ever will. No person's actions can compare no matter how good they are. We all need Jesus' righteousness as our own. The Bible says that we should not be found with our own righteousness.

Phil 3 "8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,"



The only righteousness that can stand is from God by faith.

 

[Jimlarmore]

I would agree that sin no longer has a hold on you, but we can choose to let sin reign. That doesn't change the fact that sin doesn't has a hold on us.

This is where you depart from what the Bible says. In Roman's 6:11 Paul does not say we can go on sinning after being saved because we are no longer accountable for any more sin in our lives. Paul says Reckon yourselves to be dead to sin. What that means is to assume a mind set that your body/mind/heart/soul is incapable of sinning by the power of Christ and our lack of love for it. A dead man cannot sin so when we assume ourselves to be dead to sin that means we can't sin because we have lost our taste for sin not an ability to sin because we lost our free will. Just a little further down the line Romans 6:16 says :

"Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness." This is pretty straight foward that if we sin we are serving the side that leads to death.

But it is important to consider that we must look at this from the standpoint of the cross and not from the standpoint of our works. Our works don't determine if we are dead to sin. Jesus made us dead to it already. Acting perfect doesn't make me dead to sin. The Bible said Jesus made us dead to sin and sin no longer has a hold on us. The ministry of the Spirit is to change us from people who act unrighteously and change us to be more like Christ. The Holy Spirit removes the desire to sin as we grow. We will reach a state of sinlessness though? No. The Bible makes it clear that we are not righteous. Even if we acted perfectly we would fall short of God's standard for righteousness. Jesus was the only one who met God's standard and He is the only one who ever will. No person's actions can compare no matter how good they are. We all need Jesus' righteousness as our own. The Bible says that we should not be found with our own righteousness.

Phil 3 "8More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,"



The only righteousness that can stand is from God by faith.

Salvation is never a one way street but a joint effort of man and his Savior. Righteousness is never forced on anyone.

God bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

[/b]

This is where you depart from what the Bible says. In Roman's 6:11 Paul does not say we can go on sinning after being saved because we are no longer accountable for any more sin in our lives. Paul says Reckon yourselves to be dead to sin.

Put it in context. This prooftexting stuff doesn't belong.

1 Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace? 2 Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it? 3 Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death? 4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.


5 Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was. 6 We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin. 7 For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin. 8 And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him. 9 We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him. 10 When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God. 11 So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
12 Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires. [desires which we still have...so much for the sinless perfection doctrine] 13 Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God. 14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace.

What that means is to assume a mind set that your body/mind/heart/soul is incapable of sinning by the power of Christ and our lack of love for it. A dead man cannot sin so when we assume ourselves to be dead to sin that means we can't sin because we have lost our taste for sin not an ability to sin because we lost our free will. Just a little further down the line Romans 6:16 says :

"Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey his servants ye are to whom ye obey, whether of sin unto death or of obedience unto righteousness." This is pretty straight foward that if we sin we are serving the side that leads to death.

Verse 12 said that we still have sinful desires...

Salvation is never a one way street but a joint effort of man and his Savior. Righteousness is never forced on anyone.

We are not our own saviors! Jesus is our Savior!

 

[Eila]

[/b]
Salvation is never a one way street but a joint effort of man and his Savior. Righteousness is never forced on anyone.

Salvation is only found in Jesus Christ. May we be found in Him - not with any righteousness of our own but with the righteousness that comes from God by faith.

Righteousness is received by faith - it is not forced.

Romans 4 "1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?
2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
4Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN,
AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED.
8"BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

If you must work to maintain your salvation then salvation is not by grace. Salvation is not a reward - it is a gift. A free gift.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

The following is soon to be posted on my blog:



I had never really noticed just how destructive certain Christians doctrines are. I recently have been involved with discussions with people who are proponents of “sinless perfection”. In the Adventist church this reveals itself in what is called last generation sinless perfection. It is very likely that with this quarters lesson study on The Refiners fire that the sinless perfection concept will be introduced into many Sabbath School Classes. The belief that someday there will be people on earth who no longer are tempted to or desire anything that would be termed sinful. Unfortunately in trying to defend this supposition of last generation perfection these people are destroying the Gospel. It is not simply the legalism which George Knight dealt with in his book I Used to Be Perfect: A Study of Sin and Salvation. In many ways these people take the focus off of the gift of God and place the emphasis upon man’s ability to give his or her will over to God.

Here are a few quotes from some of the sinless perfection proponents, all of whom are SDA:

“2) Perfection is when Man (sinful humans) has with the power of the divine, overcome sin to the state of Adam before the fall.

3) Adam before the fall had freewill and could sin, but when Man (sinful humans) overcomes sin, he no longer has any desire to sin.

4)Man (sinful humans) cannot go to heaven before God with any sin, as God requires holiness and perfection.”
--
(If we truly love God with all our strength and all our might, all else will fade and the Spirit will transform and put the law in our hearts and minds, and we are no longer under the dominion of sin or desire to sin.)
--
But he understands that "Christ lives in me" has transformed him as sin cannot hold sway over a person in which "Christ lives in". Then you cannot disregard the work of the Holy Spirit so that the hearts and minds are cleansed of sin. My feeling is that "sinless perfection" is kind of like the belief in the Trinity, we know its there but cannot define the divine in its completeness.
--
Christ is our creator and gave us an intelligence and free will to choose life or death. We can focus on Him to the point that we allow Him to run our lives and sanctify our characters ( which eventually will lead to sinless perfection ). However, that will never go to the extent that allows us to sin with impunity without confession or repentence.
--
I think we have to go with what the Bible says about the sanctified life in that when we abide in Christ we get to take part in the divine nature of Christ which should be the essence of what Christianity is all about anyway. So to me what sinless perfection offers to any Christian this side of the second coming is a sanctified life that gets to take part in the divine nature. Not that we can accomplish this on our own but it is the ultimate goal of Christian living and the miraculous change that can occur if we allow it too.
--
The thief on the cross will be able to enter into heaven because God knows man's heart. Had he (the thief) been given a chance, he would have cooperated with God and completed his walk to persevere and to overcome all sins.
--
If you are 'walking with God now' like Enoch, how can you still sin and be with Him. That cannot be, nowhere in the scripture does it say you can hold onto to sin and be together with God.
--
As I said in another thread, the bible tells us that we can be 'partakers of the DIVINE nature"! It's a PROMISE from the Father. So is God not good to His word? Are His promises not reliable for us here and now? Are we so blinded by self that we cannot see how sin wounds the Father and Jesus. He saves us FROM our sins, not IN our sins.
--
You cannot follow evil and hold onto and be under the dominion of sin and hold on and have a intimate relationship with Christ with his righteousness at the same time. No man can have two masters, he has to let go of one and grab the other, so when you decide to grab on to Christ and accept his righteousness, and be sanctified in/by Christ, you have to choose.
--

I have bolded the last statement because it is the crux of the problem. It is a true statement but it has nothing to do with sinless perfection. But if sinless perfection is introduced into this then people are forced to say that they do sin therefore they must not be serving God in their lives and they must be serving Satan. As one of the quotes above says how can you still sin and be with God.

The sinless perfection people have assumed that because Christians look at the reality of their lives that even though we love God and seek to follow Him we still sin, our attitude is in the main that we desire the things that God wants for us but the reality is that we are weak and fail constantly. It is very much like Paul said:
(Rom 7:22-24 NIV) For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Christians do not become sinlessly perfect because they accept and follow God. We have ample evidence of powerful Christians who none the less still sinned, still lacked love for others at times. Martin Luther is a prime example but think of all the Christians you know there is very likely not a single one that you would say is sinless. Yet we have those in our midst telling us that if one does not accept the idea of sinless perfection then they are denying the power of God and that they are merely seeking to continue sinning. How can one be denying the power of God when God very clearly does not produce sinless perfection in His followers. We look around and don’t see it and when we look at ourselves we don’t see it. Do we deny sinless perfection because we want to keep sinning? Possibly because if we are honest with ourselves we realize that we still sin both in thought and action. If sinless perfection was the reality and yet we could not see it ever then we would have to say Christianity is false

What is funny is that according to many theologians the closer one gets to God the more of a sinner they appear to be themselves. So no one will ever come to the point that they see themselves as sinlessly perfect. Compared to God their best works are filthy rags and like Paul we have to admit that we are the worst of sinners. So the whole concept of sinless perfection this side of heaven serves nobody. If it was true none of us would ever recognize it as occurring and if it is not true then it acts as a wedge which makes the Christian feel inadequate in his or her relationship with God. It serves only the purpose of defeating the victorious life of those who accept the love and promises of God. As my favorite Bible verse says:
(1 John 3:2-3 NIV) Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

 

[Eila]

If it was true none of us would ever recognize it as occurring and if it is not true then it acts as a wedge which makes the Christian feel inadequate in his or her relationship with God. It serves only the purpose of defeating the victorious life of those who accept the love and promises of God.

So true!! We can approach sin already having the victory that Jesus gave us on the cross. Or we can approach sin knowing that sinless perfection is required which puts us in a starting position of defeat. Victory is not ours to accomplish. It was accomplished by Jesus and He gave that victory to us.

 

[reddogs]

The following is soon to be posted on my blog:



I had never really noticed just how destructive certain Christians doctrines are. I recently have been involved with discussions with people who are proponents of “sinless perfection”. In the Adventist church this reveals itself in what is called last generation sinless perfection. It is very likely that with this quarters lesson study on The Refiners fire that the sinless perfection concept will be introduced into many Sabbath School Classes. The belief that someday there will be people on earth who no longer are tempted to or desire anything that would be termed sinful. Unfortunately in trying to defend this supposition of last generation perfection these people are destroying the Gospel. It is not simply the legalism which George Knight dealt with in his book I Used to Be Perfect: A Study of Sin and Salvation. In many ways these people take the focus off of the gift of God and place the emphasis upon man’s ability to give his or her will over to God.

Here are a few quotes from some of the sinless perfection proponents, all of whom are SDA:

I have bolded the last statement because it is the crux of the problem. It is a true statement but it has nothing to do with sinless perfection. But if sinless perfection is introduced into this then people are forced to say that they do sin therefore they must not be serving God in their lives and they must be serving Satan. As one of the quotes above says how can you still sin and be with God.

The sinless perfection people have assumed that because Christians look at the reality of their lives that even though we love God and seek to follow Him we still sin, our attitude is in the main that we desire the things that God wants for us but the reality is that we are weak and fail constantly. It is very much like Paul said:
(Rom 7:22-24 NIV) For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Christians do not become sinlessly perfect because they accept and follow God. We have ample evidence of powerful Christians who none the less still sinned, still lacked love for others at times. Martin Luther is a prime example but think of all the Christians you know there is very likely not a single one that you would say is sinless. Yet we have those in our midst telling us that if one does not accept the idea of sinless perfection then they are denying the power of God and that they are merely seeking to continue sinning. How can one be denying the power of God when God very clearly does not produce sinless perfection in His followers. We look around and don’t see it and when we look at ourselves we don’t see it. Do we deny sinless perfection because we want to keep sinning? Possibly because if we are honest with ourselves we realize that we still sin both in thought and action. If sinless perfection was the reality and yet we could not see it ever then we would have to say Christianity is false

What is funny is that according to many theologians the closer one gets to God the more of a sinner they appear to be themselves. So no one will ever come to the point that they see themselves as sinlessly perfect. Compared to God their best works are filthy rags and like Paul we have to admit that we are the worst of sinners. So the whole concept of sinless perfection this side of heaven serves nobody. If it was true none of us would ever recognize it as occurring and if it is not true then it acts as a wedge which makes the Christian feel inadequate in his or her relationship with God. It serves only the purpose of defeating the victorious life of those who accept the love and promises of God. As my favorite Bible verse says:
(1 John 3:2-3 NIV) Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

Thats all fine and good RC, but a 'little inappropriate' in my opinion for conversation among friends who are discussing it among themselves. If you were talking with theologians who are public it would be appropriate, but to be talking with 'joe blow' off the street and quote them as a authority, just doesnt feel 'appropriate', but to use a Stormyism 'do what you must'.

 

[reddogs]

So true!! We can approach sin already having the victory that Jesus gave us on the cross. Or we can approach sin knowing that sinless perfection is required which puts us in a starting position of defeat. Victory is not ours to accomplish. It was accomplished by Jesus and He gave that victory to us.

The problem is many approach looking for a 'dodge' to the wages of sin, they want to sin so 'pretend' to accept Christ so they can continue in sin, but forget that God will judge if they truly accepted Christs gift.

 

[StormyOne]

The problem is many approach looking for a 'dodge' to the wages of sin, they want to sin so 'pretend' to accept Christ so they can continue in sin, but forget that God will judge if they truly accepted Christs gift.

the problem in your opinion... you do not know what may truly be motivating people. That line of thinking reminds me of kids who want all their siblings to act and behave just as they do without question because they believe they know exactly how to please their parents. They may not....

 

[moicherie]

The problem is many approach looking for a 'dodge' to the wages of sin, they want to sin so 'pretend' to accept Christ so they can continue in sin, but forget that God will judge if they truly accepted Christs gift.

You talk a lot about what other people do and say, you are not responsible for their actions and statements only your own. Be careful in that in looking at the stick in the eyes of others you miss the beam in your own eyes.

This is a classic example of what is wrong with sinless perfection,its takes the focus of God and onto self. It gets people looking at others to see if they have reached this state they believe in, the irony is they are far from it themselves.

 

[reddogs]

The Spirit shows us, and the fruits of the Spirit makes it clear, and when a person is transformed it is obvious.......


John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.



The Work of the Holy Spirit

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. John 16:5-15

 

[Jimlarmore]

the problem in your opinion... you do not know what may truly be motivating people. That line of thinking reminds me of kids who want all their siblings to act and behave just as they do without question because they believe they know exactly how to please their parents. They may not....

It's much more than a mere opinion. The Bible tells us to judge in righteousness. I've never known Red to point a finger at anyone here about this. He sees the narrative and responds accordingly to the belief not individuals and if they are lost or not. What he and I have read makes us believe that what he said is true, i.e. that folks want to go on sinning or get a "dodge" after being saved and not have to worry about it.

Just as literal adultery is not ok in a marriage spiritual adultery is not ok in Christianity and never will be.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

It's much more than a mere opinion. The Bible tells us to judge in righteousness. I've never known Red to point a finger at anyone here about this. He sees the narrative and responds accordingly to the belief not individuals and if they are lost or not. What he and I have read makes us believe that what he said is true, i.e. that folks want to go on sinning or get a "dodge" after being saved and not have to worry about it.

Then you guys make too many assumptions and indirect accusations against those who see and profess Jesus alone as their Savior. It's your words that encourage us to rely on ourselves rather than Christ alone.

Oh, and we are commanded by Christ NOT to worry. Yet, YOU say we should worry about sin.

Just as literal adultery is not ok in a marriage spiritual adultery is not ok in Christianity and never will be.

If you're trying to be united to the law and to Christ then you are committing spiritual adultery. You're either dead to the law, or you're dead to Christ.

 

[StormyOne]

It's much more than a mere opinion. The Bible tells us to judge in righteousness. I've never known Red to point a finger at anyone here about this. He sees the narrative and responds accordingly to the belief not individuals and if they are lost or not. What he and I have read makes us believe that what he said is true, i.e. that folks want to go on sinning or get a "dodge" after being saved and not have to worry about it.

Just as literal adultery is not ok in a marriage spiritual adultery is not ok in Christianity and never will be.


God Bless
Jim Larmore

you cannot (generic you) cannot judge in righteousness because you cannot see what's inside a person.... so the judging would be superficial at best... obvious open sin is identifiable, anything else we have no clue and need to leave it alone....

 

[reddogs]

Then you guys make too many assumptions and indirect accusations against those who see and profess Jesus alone as their Savior. It's your words that encourage us to rely on ourselves rather than Christ alone.

Oh, and we are commanded by Christ NOT to worry.


If you're trying to be united to the law and to Christ then you are committing spiritual adultery. You're either dead to the law, or you're dead to Christ.

Free, if anyone here is without sin, please stand up....

Otherwise we must all be true to ourselves and admit we have sin and cannot at the present time 'walk with God like Enoch'. Now we can be assured of our salvation by:

1) Truly accepting Christs righteousness
2) Which entails a closer walk/intimate relationship
3) Which allows the Holy Spirit to do its work
4) Resulting in the Fruits of the Spirit

Which for our purposes we will package and call 'Growing in Grace' as RC called it. Now we need to see at what point this 'Growing in Grace' reaches "Sinless Perfection" as we cannot be in heaven with God and still desire or hold on to sin.

 

[freeindeed2]

Free, if anyone here is without sin, please stand up....

No one is good, not even one.

All fall short of the glory of God.

In Christ there is no sin. He is our righteousness. He is our salvation.

Otherwise we must all be true to ourselves and admit we have sin and cannot at the present time 'walk with God like Enoch'.

Did Enoch have a sinful human nature or not. If he was born in the lineage of Adam, he was born a sinner.

Now we can be assured of our salvation by:

1) Truly accepting Christs righteousness

It's through faith. Righteousness by faith, not righteousness by the human action of 'accepting'. It's belief.

2) Which entails a closer walk/intimate relationship

It may appear that way from our limited human perspective. God was working intimately with us long before we even recognized his voice. He gives us faith/belief and lives in believers, so I would say that's as intimate as the relationship can get. And the Holy Spirit living IN the believer certainly does HIS work of changing us from 'baby' Christians to 'adult' Christians (mature).

3) Which allows the Holy Spirit to do its work

No. The Holy Spirit (who is not an 'it') has been doing his work from the beginning. He didn't begin working because we 'allowed' him to. He's Sovereign God. He doesn't need our permission. If that were the case, we never would have chosen him. Any 'allowing' or 'choosing' we may do is the direct result of his work that he will be faithful to complete.

4) Resulting in the Fruits of the Spirit

Yes. The Holy Spirit PRODUCES HIS fruit in ALL believers.

Which for our purposes we will package and call 'Growing in Grace' as RC called it.

We may grow in our understanding of God's grace, but we have already been saved by grace (alone) through faith (alone) in Christ (alone). The grace given to us (gift, not reward) was and is sufficient.

Now we need to see at what point this 'Growing in Grace' reaches "Sinless Perfection" as we cannot be in heaven with God and still desire or hold on to sin.

14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Heb 10

In Christ we are already counted as perfect. Salvation is ours now. Christ took our sin, all of it, and satisfied God's anger that was against us.

I think the confusion of this has to do with the fact that we still have corruptible bodies.

In Romans 8 Paul says it this way:

"For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us. Now that we are saved, we eagerly look forward to this freedom. For if you already have something [salvation], you don't need to hope for it. But if we look forward to something we don't have yet [glorified bodies], we must wait patiently and confidently."

When we are given 'new bodies', we will then be free from the corruptible.

 

[Eila]

The Spirit shows us, and the fruits of the Spirit makes it clear, and when a person is transformed it is obvious.......


John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.



The Work of the Holy Spirit

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. John 16:5-15

Great text! It says he will convict the world of sin. Why? Because they do not believe. The only thing separating the lost from salvation is unbelief.

It says He will convict the world of righteousness. Why? Because He is going to the Father. He is our righteousness. He convicts us that we are righteous. In 1 John it talks about the assurance the Spirit gives.

1 John 5 "7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
9If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son.
10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

He convicts the world of judgment. Why? Because the devil has already lost the battle. Who's judgment is this talking about - specifically the devil.