LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

[Rescued One]

I didn't claim that you misquote our leaders. I stated that you twist their words to mean something else. I've pointed it out many times in the past and will make sure to take the time to point it out again the next time you decide to the meaning of our doctrines.

However, your post did twist the meaning of my comment. You changed it from a claim against the way you alter LDS doctrines to a claim of how you misquote our leaders. This is a good example of what you do with the quotes from our leaders.

I haven't twisted Mormon leaders' quotes or changed your doctrines. You haven't proved that. Your comment started with the question,

"Does Christ now have a physical body of flesh and blood?"

I responded,

The Mormon answer to that is, "No."

Then it was your turn:

If you don't want to represent the mainstream Christians that is alright with me, but you certainly don't represent the LDS.

You're just making a mountain out a mole hill. My response was completely accurate.

 

[fatboys]

By the acceptance of His perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world, knowing He would rise triumphant over death and sin, thus giving the old adversary and accuser the final boot. Really, Peter, you should know this.

Notice Jesus didn't say He would start a course on "godhood exaltation" once He rose from the dead. God's perfect plan was now perfectly complete. Perfect!

You believe the first plan failed and his plan wasnt perfect. I'm so glad that your God came through this time

 

[tickingclocker]

You believe the first plan failed and his plan wasnt perfect. I'm so glad that your God came through this time

Umm... God's perfect plans never fail. People do, however. All the time. They are not perfect because they are not divine. This does not surprise Him.

 

[fatboys]

Umm... God's perfect plans never fail. People do, however. All the time. They are not perfect because they are not divine.

You believe gods first plan failed

 

[tickingclocker]

You believe gods first plan failed

God knew mankind would be precisely what he is today from eternity. He still created us. He knew what Satan would become, too. He still created Satan. That doesn't mean He makes mistakes.

It's Mormons who cannot accept the divine. Not Christians.

 

[now faith]

So the question was, 'Is Christ now a mortal man'? you say 'no'.

The next question was, 'Is Christ now subject to a mortal death? you say 'no'.

The last question was, 'does Christ now have a physical body of flesh and blood? you say 'no'.

If you said 'no' to these 3 questions, (which you did), then you have admitted that Jesus changed. Did Christ progress? Read Luke 13:32, Jesus says he was perfected after 3 days, or after his resurrection. Interesting.
What change did Jesus experience from day 2 to day 3 when he was perfected?

No God does not change,he was and is God Emanuel God with us.
The entire Old Testament is a for shadow of Christ,and what God would do.

There comes a point that revelation in God's Word will bring a person to the truth,if they do not recieve it or deny it it's time to move on.

Galatians: 1. 7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

The Bible is a closed book Christ work is finished until his return.

False prophets will take you to Hell ,there are no magic rocks or hidden gold plates,it's all a lie.


2 Timothy: 3. 1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. 10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11. Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Reconcile for yourself ask does this story make sense?
Why would God change what has been for told since time began?
Why would I follow and believe such things that had to be corrected in the future?
If it was wrong on polygamy, people of color,and made me put on uncomfortable clothes what makes it right?

 

[Jane_Doe]

The Bible is a closed book Christ work is finished until his return.

There's a fundamental problem with your statement here: the Bible does not say this.

 

[Rescued One]

[Staff edit] In the New Testament we read verses thai support Jesus' divinity:

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father?' Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will he do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it." (John 14:7-14)

The question is, "Why does anyone need two fathers?"

 

[withwonderingawe]

In the New Testament we read verses thai support Jesus' divinity:

"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father?' Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will he do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it." (John 14:7-14)

The question is, "Why does anyone need two fathers?"

You are making a good point here if there is only one God then why two fathers, but if there is only one God then why the adoption?

John 20
"...go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"

Please explain how it is if the are one being Jesus has a God and Father;

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; ...I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. John 17

So God Jesus has the same God and Father as we do, we belong to him first and he gave us to Jesus. So how does that work with them being one and the same God, it's not logical. Please explain.

eph 1&3
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

eph 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

So we belong to God the Father before the foundation of the world and he predestinated us to be adopted by Jesus Christ. How does that work if Jesus and the Father are one and the same, why the need for the adoption?

Really really explain this.

 

[now faith]

There's a fundamental problem with your statement here: the Bible does not say this.

1st and second Thessalonians, Daniel,and Revelation come to mind,and Christ has not come back yet.
So how can you continue his greatest gift to mankind?
Do you believe God's word will change?

Mormonism denies the efficacy of Jesus' finished work on the cross by adding their perceived righteousness and works to their ungodly salvation process. According to 2 Nephi 25:23, in the Book of Mormon, salvation is by grace, plus works. "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."QUOTE CARM .ORG
Since you did not give a fundamental reason for your statement, I had to seek a teaching on your belief.

 

[now faith]

The Bible is clear on being saved by works is not in God's plan of salvation.
Just ask Simon the Sorcerer after all he tried to buy the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[withwonderingawe]

1st and second Thessalonians, Daniel,and Revelation come to mind,and Christ has not come back yet.
So how can you continue his greatest gift to mankind?
Do you believe God's word will change?

Mormonism denies the efficacy of Jesus' finished work on the cross by adding their perceived righteousness and works to their ungodly salvation process. According to 2 Nephi 25:23, in the Book of Mormon, salvation is by grace, plus works. "For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."QUOTE CARM .ORG
Since you did not give a fundamental reason for your statement, I had to seek a teaching on your belief.

That passage is often taken out of context by those who really don't want to understand what Nephi is saying. He was living under the Law of Moses a law which he says is a dead law for it can not save them. He teaches his children to look forward to Christ.

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

Let's put in modern terms; Only the atonement made by Christ can save us, it is only through his blood that we can receive a remission of sin. And we know that the act of baptism alone can not save us put we do it because we have been commanded to do it. We know good works can not save us but we do them because we have been commanded to, that's all we can do.

 

[Rescued One]

You are making a good point here if there is only one God then why two fathers, but if there is only one God then why the adoption?

Because we aren't God's children until He brings us to Christ. No one is born believing in Christ. No one becomes a child of Christ; Christ is God the Son not God the Father.

John 20
"...go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God"

Please explain how it is if the are one being Jesus has a God and Father;

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; ...I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. John 17

So God Jesus has the same God and Father as we do, we belong to him first and he gave us to Jesus. So how does that work with them being one and the same God, it's not logical. Please explain.

Being one God, doesn't make them what you think ot makes them. The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

eph 1&3
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Blessed be the God and Father who chose to adopt us by Jesus Christ to himself. "Himself" is the Father.

eph 3
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

The whole family doesn't include children of Satan --- you must be born again.

So we belong to God the Father before the foundation of the world and he predestinated us to be adopted by Jesus Christ.

He decided before we were conceived by our parents that He would bring us to Christ.

How does that work if Jesus and the Father are one and the same, why the need for the adoption?

Really really explain this.

The Father is not (nor has ever been) the Son. We need adoption to the Father through faith in Christ. Faith in Christ is given to us by the Father.

Why do LDS need two Heavenly Fathers?

 

[withwonderingawe]

The Bible is clear on being saved by works is not in God's plan of salvation.
Just ask Simon the Sorcerer after all he tried to buy the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

No he tried the buy the power to give the Holy Ghost. He sees the many miracles Philip is able to preform and believes. His belief is based on miracles rather than on a witness of the Holy Spirit for none of them had receive the Holy Ghost. Then Peter and John come and

"prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:... Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

It does not say what kind of manifestation was seen by Simon as the Holy Ghost was given but he recognized this as a great power, greater than any power he had as a sorcerer. He was never able to heal anyone. He says;

"And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost." acts 8

It was the power of the Holy Priesthood he wanted to buy. Peter call him to repentance and say "thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money" This what the Book of Mormon calls priestcraft.

"... behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world"

With his sorcery he was paid and he didn't understand that the gifts of the spirit are free.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Being one God, doesn't make them what you think ot makes them. The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

So then you are polytheistic?

Blessed be the God and Father who chose to adopt us by Jesus Christ to himself. "Himself" is the Father.

You're skipping John 17 "thine they were, and thou gavest them me" if we were not already the children of God then how did we already belong to him and how could he give what was not his?

The whole family doesn't include children of Satan --- you must be born again.

Satan created children?

Gen 1&2
" So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them...And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made;...These are the generations/history of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, (up to) in the day that the Lord God/Yahweh made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew"

So God made all of the host of heaven and earth were finished on the sixth day, then the Lord God or Yahweh created man from the dust.

"for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul"

So during this creative process where God created all the host of heaven and earth did Satan create children? If God created all the host of heaven and earth how is it Satan is not a child of God also?

 

[Peter1000]

You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill cannot be hidden. (Matt 5:14)
Why did Jesus call them the light of the world? Because they were humans? Because they talked with Jesus? Because they had their own personal lights to offer the world? Christians offer God's light to the world, not our own because we possess none of ourselves. Without the HS, all we have to offer to the world is nothing but our own fellow darkness. That is what Matthew is saying Jesus said.

People do not light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before people, so that they can see your good deeds and give honor to your Father in heaven. (Matt 5:15, 16)
a. Just like an ordinary candle can't help but expose what is in the darkness, neither will you be able to now that you know the truth.
b. Don't keep the Gospel of salvation to yourself.


And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (Eph 2:1-3)

Peter, who should really get the credit for the things we do done in the power of God? Us?

You're welcome.

For sure give God the credit for the light within us.

But by the same token, give yourself credit too. Your actions have allowed the HS to create the light within you. You are important to God. Jesus said in his sermon of the mount that:
1) Ye are the salt lf the earth...(vs 13)
2) Ye are the light of the world...(vs 14)
3) Let your light so shine...(vs 16)

By your actions you continue to receive light from the HS so that you can shine out to the world. That you are a daughter of God and you are the salt of the earth, the light of the world and your actions, that are see of men, will absolutely glorify your God himself.

Keep up the good work.

 

[tickingclocker]

For sure give God the credit for the light within us.

But by the same token, give yourself credit too. Your actions have allowed the HS to create the light within you. You are important to God. Jesus said in his sermon of the mount that:
1) Ye are the salt lf the earth...(vs 13)
2) Ye are the light of the world...(vs 14)
3) Let your light so shine...(vs 16)

By your actions you continue to receive light from the HS so that you can shine out to the world. That you are a daughter of God and you are the salt of the earth, the light of the world and your actions, that are see of men, will absolutely glorify your God himself.

Keep up the good work.

God's act of love have allowed the HS to create HIS light in my life. Just this morning I again was reminded that He even instills in us what to pray for in His will. Is it my will that prays in His will, or His will that not only makes my spirit willing, He also guides my willing spirit to pray in His Will? I've seen throughout the years that its the latter. The former isn't very bright. Even to this day.

I don't have to pat myself on the spiritual back in order to know God loves me, Pete. It humbles me that He loves me whether I do nothing or every single thing He asks of me. Doesn't it you? Shouldn't it?

I look at those homilies differently: "you ARE salt and light"--because of in who has caused me to put my trust in. Without that fact, there would be no light to shine for His glory. I possess none. It's all His. Moses had none when he went up the mountain. He had God's when he descended from the mountain. Moses didn't manufacture that shine. God did.

Do you have any sunlight in yourself? You certainly are a product of sunlight. Without it you would certainly die. But who made that sun and gives that sunlight so you won't die? You? Who gave you that body that is dependent upon sunlight? You?

By God's act of love I will continue to receive HIS light from the HS so that HE will be glorified by HIS own light. I am a daughter of the King, yes, but only because HE is salt and light. I offer HIS Gospel to the lost, not mine. When people see The Master working through me, His tool, they give glory to Him. NOT to the tool. And this tool doesn't mind in the least. Honest. In fact, I prefer it happen that way!

The answer isn't going to change just because you want it to, Peter.

 

[Peter1000]

The Bible is clear on being saved by works is not in God's plan of salvation.
Just ask Simon the Sorcerer after all he tried to buy the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Simon wanted to buy the power to give the HS by the laying on of hands as he had seen Peter do. I'm not sure why you would use that event to prove that works are not in God's plan of salvation?

Jesus, who is the creator of the plan of salvation did preach that works are important. Whatever Jesus says in the bible should be read over and over until you believe them.
So here is what Jesus said about works:
John 10:32
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father...
(So we know that Jesus did many good works and he was not ashamed of his good works.)

John 5:36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. He said this again in John 10:25.
(So you see Jesus had a greater witness than John the Baptist, it was his works that bear witness to the world that his Father had sent him. So it will be with us, it is our works that will bear witness to the world that we are the children of God. This is a very important witness.)

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
(Again Jesus says that it is because of his works that people believe that the Father is in him and he is in the Father. It is exactly the same for us. Our good works also declare that the Father is in us and we are in the Father.)

Revelations 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(So Jesus is telling us to do good works for it is by our goods works that we will be judged.)

I want to be a witness to Jesus Christ,
I want to have the Father in me and I want to be in the Father.
I want my judgement to go well, so I can live with God and Jesus in the K of H.

So I better be willing to do good works, as Jesus says. Do no belittle good works.

 

[Peter1000]

God's act of love have allowed the HS to create HIS light in my life. Just this morning I again was reminded that He even instills in us what to pray for in His will. Is it my will that prays in His will, or His will that not only makes my spirit willing, He also guides my willing spirit to pray in His Will? I've seen throughout the years that its the latter. The former isn't very bright. Even to this day.

I don't have to pat myself on the spiritual back in order to know God loves me, Pete. It humbles me that He loves me whether I do nothing or every single thing He asks of me. Doesn't it you? Shouldn't it?

I look at those homilies differently: "you ARE salt and light"--because of in who has caused me to put my trust in. Without that fact, there would be no light to shine for His glory. I possess none. It's all His. Moses had none when he went up the mountain. He had God's when he descended from the mountain. Moses didn't manufacture that shine. God did.

By God's act of love I will continue to receive HIS light from the HS so that HE will be glorified by HIS own light. I am a daughter of the King, yes, but only because HE is salt and light. I offer HIS Gospel to the lost, not mine. When people see The Master working through me, His tool, they give glory to Him. NOT to the tool. And this tool doesn't mind in the least. Honest. In fact, I prefer it happen that way!

You continue to be the light of God and the salt of God no matter how you reconcile this salt and light. You are a powerful person and God has a great work for you to accomplish.

 

[tickingclocker]

You continue to be the light of God and the salt of God no matter how you reconcile this salt and light. You are a powerful person and God has a great work for you to accomplish.

I have no power. God has a great work for me to accomplish because of who HE is, not because of who I am. It's because of who He made me.

Now you are starting to sound like a self-help book, a la Norman Vincent Peale's "The Power of Positive Thinking". I never cared for Norman Vincent Peale. He was found to be a godless man.