LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

[Ran77]

I did not want to make any personal attacks on you ,I am enjoying this as well.

What does this have to do with my post? I didn't mention anyone making personal attacks.

Christ was ,is and always be God.
His sacrifice was for our salvation and only God's sinless perfection could do this.
Do we put constraints on God?
He flung the universe into being ,He spoke everything into existence, and he was born from a virgin.
He died and preached in Hell to those before the flood.
He ascended to the right hand of the Father.

These do not answer the questions I asked you in my post. Please, try again.

Is Christ now a mortal man?

Is Christ now subject to a mortal death?

Does Christ now have a physical body of flesh and blood?

 

[Ran77]

I hope I have not misunderstood you ,but you are saying Christ progressed into his Devine nature.

I started to reply to this, but then remembered that you have not responded to this:

"I absolutely did not state or imply this. Time for the ol' CFR (Call For Reference). Where did I imply Jesus began his existence as a man?"

You have made a false accusation and I don't intend to answer any of your questions until you either retract your claim or post proof of it.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Obviously Light is not in everyone, or Jesus wouldn't have given a condition for walking in Light.

There are several passage which indicate we have light within ourselves;

*James 1
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Proverbs 20:27
27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly

In Mormon theology God takes the light or intelligence and clothes it in pure spirit matter.

*without this light there is no life

Job 18
5 Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.
6 The light shall be dark in his tabernacle, and his candle shall be put out with him.

Job 33
30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Once the spirit which clothes the light leaves then the body dies.

*John 1
3 All were made by him; and without him was not any made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Matt 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

It was Jesus who placed in Adam 'the breath of life' within him to make him a living soul.

Isa 42:5
He/Yahweh that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Zach 12;1
"the Lord...and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Luke 11
34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

That matches
Job 10:22
22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

1 John 1:5
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

The idea is that we are purging the darkness out of us.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Perhaps it will be helpful to look at some quote to see what I'm getting at. I think that the most commonly quoted reference is the King Follett Sermon, where Joseph Smith says:

"In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see."
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

So, here we have Joseph Smith stating that he is going to tell how God came to be God, and that he will refute the idea that God was God from all eternity.

In the Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young manual, we read this:

"The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. How do you feel, knowing that God, through His own experience, “knows all that we know regarding the toils [and] sufferings” of mortality?"
https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-brigham-young/chapter-4?lang=eng

So, here we read that it is doctrine that God was once a man and progressed to become a God.

In the Gospel Fundamentals manual, we read this:

""It will help us to remember that our Father in Heaven was once a man who lived on an earth, the same as we do. He became our Father in Heaven by overcoming problems, just as we have to do on this earth."
https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-fundamentals/chapter-36-eternal-life?lang=eng

So, here we read that the Father became our Father in Heaven by overcoming problems, just like we have to do.

Amongst other statements in LDS-related publications. So, it seems as if it is at least consistent with Mormon teaching that God progressed to or achieved Godhood, that He became God/the Father at some point, and of course that we can follow the path that He followed to be exalted. So to me, I don't see how these statements can be reconciled to mean that God has always been God, or has always been the Father, when we see on the church's website statements saying or implying otherwise.




If the Godhead has always existed, how would that work with the Son and Holy Ghost being spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother?

First point, As I said before to you we believe the intelligence within you is un-created, So God the Father and the Son are both eternal beings. I also quote the rest of that King Follett which says God the Father was on an earth just as Jesus was, or played the role of a Christ.

Second point to be God one must be perfectly righteous, when one has attained that state of perfection then he is considered God and has the power of creation, D&C 121.

Heb 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Yahweh/Jesus has always been perfectly righteous, even as an intelligence he was perfectly righteous with no darkness in him at all. Our Book of Abraham describes Jesus as the greatest of all the intelligence. He was ordained God by his God and Father, (who also never had any darkness in him at all) before he ever came to this earth. He had the power of God, he created this earth. In that sense Jesus was always God, and so was his Father.

Third point; But the Bible also teaches;

Phi 2
7...and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Heb 4
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Heb 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So he had to go through that trials, if Jesus had said 'wait a min here I don't want to do this' and walked away from the cross he would have walked away from his Godhood for he would no long have been perfectly righteous. Being willing to bend his own will to the Father's will made him perfectly obedient. It also made him perfectly just and perfectly merciful.

*forth point; Jesus didn't become totally perfect until the "third day" Luke 13:32

Once he was resurrected then he was in a total state of perfection with a glorified immortal body. Then;
"... being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high" Heb 1

We believe God the Father went through this same process with his God and Father. Always perfectly righteous so always God but there were things he had to overcome before sitting down on the right hand of his Father.

 

[Rescued One]

Does Christ now have a physical body of flesh and blood?

The Mormon answer to that is, "No."

 

[NYCGuy]

This is the problem with taking quotes out of context. What Joseph Smith is discussing in the King Follet sermon is A) God was mortal at one point, B) God has a physical body, and C) there is a resurrection. The progression Smith talks about is moving from a being of spirit, to a being of mortality, to that of a resurrected being. The purpose of the lecture is to comfort those attending King Follet's funeral. This also needs to be compared to other statements Smith made about the nature of God and I don't know of any place where he brings to question the eternal or divine nature of God.

However, I like what you have presented here. As I understand your comment, the suggestion is that the Bible describes a progression to a fuller state of Godhood. That's excellent and it fits much better with what LDS believe on the topic rather than what our critics insist we teach. Smith's statement of how God came to be God, if that was recorded correctly, can just as easily mean: God was not always what God is now. Keep in mind that Smith clearly compared Heavenly Father's situation to that of Jesus. if you feel that Jesus was always God, then the correct way to look at Smith's statement would be to admit that Heavenly Father was always God. If the progression Jesus experiences in the Bible is one of reaching a fuller state of Godhood then the same argument should be applied to Smith's statement about Heavenly Father. The rest of the King Follet sermon does not support the interpretation that our critics continue to offer.

So in your view, Although the Father was God, He wasn't fully God, and therefore progressed to this fully God state through His mortal experience? Or, is it your view that there is no "fully God" state, and there is continuous progression into infinity?

I think the orthodox view is that God has always been fully God, including Jesus Christ, and that He did not increase in Godhood at any time, because He has always been fully God.

Orthodox Christians may not believe that Jesus' mortal experience assisted in any progression to becoming God, but the fact of the matter is that the language of the Bible states that Jesus "grew and waxed strong in spirit." Jesus gained a mortal body. Jesus faced trials and even asked the Father to take this cup from Him. There is a definite progression here.

You must remember that orthodox Christians, at least those that hold to the declarations of the Councils, believe that Jesus during His mortal existence (and subsequently) was both fully God and fully man. He possessed both natures. Therefore, He could learn and grow in His humanity, but that would not be necessary in His divine nature, because as God, there is nothing to learn.

Actually, the logic in this situation is that God was not the Father until after He created all that He created. There would have been nothing for Him to be the Father of prior to that point. Unless you (figurative - not you personally) want to argue that God created nothing then there is point when God was God, but not the Father. Does God have to be the Father in order to be God? It really boils down to the fact that LDS believe Jesus has always been God so why wouldn't we also believe that Heavenly Father has always been God?

I see. I thought you had said earlier that the Father has always been the Father (perhaps that was someone else)?

As I mentioned previously in our discussion, mortal man lacks the ability to fully understand God and what makes Him God. Just as Jesus was fully man and fully God, so was Heavenly Father. How does that work? We don't know.

So Jesus was fully God, but through His mortal experiences, progressed to being even more fully God? This is what isn't making sense.

We go right back to context. What was Joseph Smith discussing when he used this phrase? Obtaining a physical body, mortal experiences, and eventually being resurrected. That is what Joseph Smith was talking about, but for some reason our critics seem to refuse to discuss the matter within that context.

So all of these pertain to becoming/achieving Godhood?

I'd be happy to discuss whether Jesus progressed in His divinity while mortal, but it would be a matter of my opinion. The LDS doctrine on the topic is that Jesus has always been God. Heavenly Father has always been God.

Sure why not.

 

[Ran77]

So in your view, Although the Father was God, He wasn't fully God, and therefore progressed to this fully God state through His mortal experience? Or, is it your view that there is no "fully God" state, and there is continuous progression into infinity?

The LDS accept the fully man and fully God view of Jesus. The same is true for the Father. As I previously stated, I believe that mortal man cannot understand the true nature of God with our limited experiences and intelligence. This is as close as we are going to get.

I think the orthodox view is that God has always been fully God, including Jesus Christ, and that He did not increase in Godhood at any time, because He has always been fully God.

If that is the orthodox view, then that is the orthodox view. The Bible still charts a form of progression in the verses about Jesus. Is that an increase in Godhood? Or is some other sort of progression? I don't know.

You must remember that orthodox Christians, at least those that hold to the declarations of the Councils, believe that Jesus during His mortal existence (and subsequently) was both fully God and fully man. He possessed both natures. Therefore, He could learn and grow in His humanity, but that would not be necessary in His divine nature, because as God, there is nothing to learn.

I accept that this is the orthodox view. However, I don't accept the logic behind it. If there is nothing for God to learn then as man He will learn nothing, because there is already nothing for Him to learn. But I'm not here to argue about orthodox Christian beliefs.

I feel that the important element in your comment is the focus on not having anything to learn. It seems to me that the difference between orthodox and LDS view on this topic is the LDS see the mortal experience of Christ as an important chance for Him to experience what all of humanity experiences. That is a form of learning. We also believe that gaining a physical body is an important step (so that makes two differences).

I see. I thought you had said earlier that the Father has always been the Father (perhaps that was someone else)?

If I did, it was an accident. Heavenly Father has always been God. Obviously, if there is a point of creation then any period of existence prior to creation would leave God without anything to be the Father of. Or in other words, when nothing existed except God, He wasn't the Father of anything.

So Jesus was fully God, but through His mortal experiences, progressed to being even more fully God? This is what isn't making sense.

Remember that whole mortal man - limited understanding thing I've mentioned. If you stop to think about the fully man and fully God idea, that doesn't make sense either. There are a host of verses that talk about the carnal nature of man. Could Christ be fully carnal and fully divine at the same time?

Do you happen to have/know any scriptures that clearly explains what exactly it means to be Fully God? Does being Fully God mean that there can be no further progression for God? Or does it mean something else? Maybe this is a situation where you (orthodox Christianity) has a view of what Fully God means, but the Bible is expressing a different concept altogether.

So all of these pertain to becoming/achieving Godhood?

That would be logically inconsistent with what's been presented so far. Since the Word was God from the beginning, logic dictates that these things are not necessary to achieving Godhood. And since the LDS accept that Christ was God from the beginning the LDS logically do not believe that these things are necessary for Godhood. What that leaves us with is A) Smith's exact words may or may not have been recorded correctly; and if the wording is correct B) the language Smith uses can still be understood to mean that God has not always been the same as He is now.

 

[now faith]

What does this have to do with my post? I didn't mention anyone making personal attacks.




These do not answer the questions I asked you in my post. Please, try again.

Is Christ now a mortal man?

Is Christ now subject to a mortal death?

Does Christ now have a physical body of flesh and blood?

No,no,no.

Did Christ progress to the Godhead? No
Was God once a man that became a God ? No.
Is God a triune spirit being? Yes
Is God outside of time space and matter? Yes

What God has created cannot put boundaries on him,and He created all things.

Is there any way a man can become God ? No
Satan wanted to become as God,it did not go well for him.
As Christians we share in the divine nature of God through Christ and Christ alone.
There is only one way,one truth,and one life eternal and that is in Christ and him alone.

 

[Rescued One]

I know that Mormons still teach that flesh and blood refers to mortal men and flesh and bone refers to resurrected beings. The Mormon answer is still, "No."

Does Christ now have a physical body of flesh and blood?

 

[tickingclocker]

There are several passage which indicate we have light within ourselves;

*James 1
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Proverbs 20:27
27 The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly

In Mormon theology God takes the light or intelligence and clothes it in pure spirit matter.

*without this light there is no life

Job 18
5 Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.
6 The light shall be dark in his tabernacle, and his candle shall be put out with him.

Job 33
30 To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.

James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Once the spirit which clothes the light leaves then the body dies.

*John 1
3 All were made by him; and without him was not any made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Matt 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

It was Jesus who placed in Adam 'the breath of life' within him to make him a living soul.

Isa 42:5
He/Yahweh that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Zach 12;1
"the Lord...and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Luke 11
34 The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness.
35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness.
36 If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

That matches
Job 10:22
22 A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.

1 John 1:5
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

The idea is that we are purging the darkness out of us.

James 1:17 - There is nothing in that which states "we" have any light within us without God putting it there first.

Proverbs 10:27 - The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord. His possession. Not the possession of man.

I have nothing to do with mormonism's views on God's light. You believe that. Christianity does not.

Job 18 - This is taken from Bildad the Shuhite. Is this the same Bildad that the Lord said, "...My anger is stirred up against you and your two friends, because you have not spoken about me what is right, as my servant Job has. So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job will intercede for you, and I will respect him, so that I do not deal with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken about me what is right, as my servant Job has.” (Job 42:7, 8)
The LDS teaches you to believe a person whom God Himself announced--twice--was completely wrong about everything he said about Him?? Even I thought mormonism would be smarter than that.

Job 33 - Clearly says without being brought back from the pit (i.e., redeemed by God), there is no light in the soul. It argues exactly the opposite of your premise.

James 2:26 - The spirit never dies. The body does. The spirit is quickened by God. It's not alive beforehand. That's why Jesus called it being "born again".

John 1 - Again, these verses argue exactly the opposite of your premise. In HIM was life. Not in man. God is the giver of physical as well as spiritual life. Not man.

Matthew 5 - The Light of the believer is the light of Jesus Christ. We have no light of our own, just as the moon has no light of its own. Isn't there something within mormonism that explains this to Mormons? Something about the moon not having any light of its own, but its taken from the sun? You might want to look it up and study it. It might help.

Yes, I agree. Jesus did give life to Adam, when God physically created Adam. Without Him doing so, Adam would have been an empty shell.

Isaiah 42:5 - Again, this verse reveals that God gives life to people, and they either walk in HIS spirit--or they don't. That makes those who don't spiritually unregenerated. They cannot walk in the Light because they have none. And?

Zech 12:1 - Again and again, this verse clearly states that God dispenses His spirit into man. It's not standard human equipment.

I noticed you failed to include verses in your list like these:

Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for me? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!” (Num 11:29)
“Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all humankind, appoint a man over the community, (Num 27:16)
Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. (Ps 51:11)
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (1Pet 3:18)

As you can see from my list of verses, its God who does the purging. Not us. We are not the captains of our spirits. Jesus Christ is.

So it is not the children of the flesh who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring. (Rom 9:8)

 

[now faith]

James 1:17 - There is nothing in that which states "we" have any light within us without God putting it there first.

Proverbs 10:27 - The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord. His possession. Not the possession of man.

I have nothing to do with mormonism's views on God's light. You believe that. Christianity does not.

Job 18 - This is taken from Bildad the Shuhite. Is this the same Bildad that the Lord said, "...My anger is stirred up against you and your two friends, because you have not spoken about me what is right, as my servant Job has. So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer a burnt offering for yourselves. And my servant Job will intercede for you, and I will respect him, so that I do not deal with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken about me what is right, as my servant Job has.” (Job 42:7, 8)
You believe a person whom God Himself announced--twice--was completely wrong about everything they said about Him?? Even I thought mormonism would be smarter than that.

Job 33 - Clearly says without being brought back from the pit (i.e., redeemed by God), there is no light in the soul. It argues exactly the opposite of your premise.

James 2:26 - The spirit never dies. The body does. The spirit is quickened by God. It's not alive beforehand. That's why Jesus called it being "born again".

John 1 - Again, these verses argue exactly the opposite of your premise. In HIM was life. Not in man. God is the giver of physical as well as spiritual life. Not man.

Matthew 5 - The Light of the believer is the light of Jesus Christ. We have no light of our own, just as the moon has no light of its own. Isn't there something within mormonism that explains this to Mormons? Something about the moon not having any light of its own, but its taken from the sun? You might want to look it up and study it. It might help.

Yes, I agree. Jesus did give life to Adam, when God physically created Adam. Without Him doing so, Adam would have been an empty shell.

Isaiah 42:5 - Again, this verse reveals that God gives life to people, and they either walk in HIS spirit--or they don't. That makes those who don't spiritually unregenerated. They cannot walk in the Light because they have none. And?

Zech 12:1 - Again and again, this verse clearly states that God dispenses His spirit into man. It's not standard human equipment.

I noticed you failed to include verses in your list like these:

Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for me? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!” (Num 11:29)
“Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all humankind, appoint a man over the community, (Num 27:16)
Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me. (Ps 51:11)
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (1Pet 3:18)

As you can see from my list of verses, its God who does the purging. Not us. We are not the captains of our spirits. Jesus Christ is.

So it is not the children of the flesh who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring. (Rom 9:8)

John: 8. 12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

 

[withwonderingawe]

believe that Jesus during His mortal existence (and subsequently) was both fully God and fully man. He possessed both natures. Therefore, He could learn and grow in His humanity, but that would not be necessary in His divine nature, because as God, there is nothing to learn.

That is a good point. Even as a mortal he retain the power of his Godhood, he could command the waves to be still.

Yet;
Heb 2
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The only thing he had to learn was pain and sorrow
"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:...he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isa 53

What he progresses in now is glory, " And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." John17

 

[tickingclocker]

John: 8. 12. Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

EXCELLENT verse! So without the Light of Jesus Christ energizing the spirit there IS spiritual darkness.

 

[now faith]

Low battery until tomorrow or kingdom come God Bless

 

[tickingclocker]

That is a good point. Even as a mortal he retain the power of his Godhood, he could command the waves to be still.

Yet;
Heb 2
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

The only thing he had to learn was pain and sorrow
"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief:...he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isa 53

What he progresses in now is glory, " And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." John17

God cannot "progress in glory" (whom Jesus is) when God IS glorified already. What does "glorified" mean to you? Is it a state of being or a graduated state you attain? If its a graduated state you must attain, then you cannot be "glorified" if there is a lack somewhere in their person. It's either glorified or not glorified. You cannot have both in one person at the same time.

Glorified is a perfect permanent state of being, just like divine. There is no "perfected" when it comes to the divine. Only perfect.

 

[withwonderingawe]

God cannot "progress in glory" (whom Jesus is) when God IS glorified already. What does "glorified" mean to you? Is it a state of being or a graduated state you attain? If its a graduated state you must attain, then you cannot be "glorified" if there is a lack somewhere in their person. It's either glorified or not glorified. You cannot have both in one person at the same time.

Glorified is a perfect permanent state of being, just like divine. There is no "perfected" when it comes to the divine. Only perfect.

As we come unto Christ we add to his glory, he is glorified in us.

 

[dzheremi]

As we come unto Christ we add to his glory, he is glorified in us.

What? Man cannot add to the glory of Christ, who is God, in any way. When we say in our hymns "we glorify You", it is a synonym for "praise", not at all meaning that we are somehow adding to His glory.

While in some sense we can say that Christ is glorified in us (as one definition of 'to glorify' is to make clearer the glory of God through ones own actions; this is precisely why we glorify and venerate saints in the more traditional churches -- it is a testament to the glory of God as manifested in their lives), we must be careful to always recognize and affirm that it is Christ who has glorified our nature by assuming it, not the other way around!

 

[Ran77]

I know that Mormons still teach that flesh and blood refers to mortal men and flesh and bone refers to resurrected beings. The Mormon answer is still, "No."

If you don't want to represent the mainstream Christians that is alright with me, but you certainly don't represent the LDS.

 

[Ran77]

No,no,no.

If these are answers to the three questions I asked you then your initial statement was indeed wrong. Just to remind everyone of what that was:

"A logical fallacy, to assume Christ has not always been what he is now."

Is Christ now a mortal man? Your answer = No. During His earthly ministry Christ was a mortal man. If He isn't now then He has not always been what He is now.

Is Christ now subject to a mortal death? Your answer = No. Christ died, I.E. was subject to mortal death. If He isn't now then He has not always been what He is now.

Does Christ now have a physical body of flesh and blood? Your answer = No. During His earthly ministry Christ had a body of flesh and blood. If He doesn't now then He has not always been what He is now.

 

[Ran77]

Did Christ progress to the Godhead? No

Which is fine. LDS don't believe that He did so this doesn't appear to have a reason to be in this discussion.

Was God once a man that became a God ? No.

I thought orthodox Christians believed that Jesus is God. Wasn't Jesus once a man?

Here again, the LDS don't believe Jesus was a man who became a God. We believe that Jesus was God from the beginning. So this also doesn't appear to have a reason to be in this discussion.

Is God a triune spirit being? Yes

This has no bearing on what I'm currently discussing. It is a different argument and perhaps you can find someone who wants to engage you on this topic.

Is God outside of time space and matter? Yes

Also not the topic I'm currently discussing, but I would love for you to provide scriptural support for the statement.