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LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

Rescued One

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Now_Faith said: "The Bible is a closed book Christ work is finished until his return."
Jane said: "There's a fundamental problem with your statement here: the Bible does not say this."

None of those say "The Bible is a closed book Christ work is finished until his return." Please provide the verse that says this exactly.
Please provide the verse that says exactly, "In the nineteenth century, I'll tell people how to be saved."
 
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dzheremi

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Was Cyril of Alexandria a prophet of God?

Looked him up "Cyril wrote extensively and was a leading protagonist in the Christological controversies of the late-4th and 5th centuries. He was a central figure in the Council of Ephesus in 431"

"And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.....Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,....For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Act 20

Mmm seems to fit the bill

May God forgive you the arrogant blasphemies you have written against His beloved saint, our father St. Cyril.

The trouble with this kind of argument, aside from its utter lack of historical context (you clearly don't know the context of St. Cyril's writing if you are positing him as one who is against the Church and the faith in his expositions; or is it that you do know and you are on the side of Nestorius?), is that anything can be answered similarly. Joseph Smith and his movement of which you are a part can also be described -- and I believe most Christians would say much more aptly than St. Cyril of Alexandria -- as speaking perverse things to draw disciples away after them, etc. So what is the use of that?

I give you a lengthy quotation of one of the chief expositors of Orthodox Christian theology of the fourth century in response to your posting Joseph Smith's theological teaching (which is most un-Christian and by no means Orthodox), and all you can say is "It seems like this verse about people to watch out for fits him." Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but this is nothing more than special pleading in that case: Your guy revealed beautiful, clear, and true doctrines about God and is to be called a 'true prophet' because you say he is, while our (Christianity's) guy is a shyster because look at what this verse says!

It doesn't work that way. We can point to actual accomplishments of St. Cyril in preserving the Church against heresies (e.g., his 12 anathemas against Nestorius and their acceptance at the Council of Ephesus), so the presupposition that he led the Church or its faithful into error is refuted by what actually happened.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Jesus taught "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" John 17

Your creed written by men, by the arm of flesh tells me God is incomprehensible when the Bible says it's the darkness which can not comprehend.

Joseph Smith God's prophet said;
"This is life eternal"--to know God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent. If any man, not knowing what kind of a being God is, inquires to know if the declaration of the apostle is true--and searches diligently his own heart--he will admit that he has not eternal life; for there can be no eternal life on any other principle. My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God,...I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him....First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another."

Let's see one tells me I can not understand God and the other explains God very plainly. Which should I believe?
I believe the Bible over Joseph Smith' blashpemous statement that God is a man like one of us.

Numbers 23:19 - "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

1 Samuel 15:29 - "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
 
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Jane_Doe

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May God forgive you the arrogant blasphemies you have written against His beloved saint, our father St. Cyril.

The trouble with this kind of argument, aside from its utter lack of historical context (you clearly don't know the context of St. Cyril's writing if you are positing him as one who is against the Church and the faith in his expositions; or is it that you do know and you are on the side of Nestorius?), is that anything can be answered similarly. Joseph Smith and his movement of which you are a part can also be described -- and I believe most Christians would say much more aptly than St. Cyril of Alexandria -- as speaking perverse things to draw disciples away after them, etc. So what is the use of that?

I give you a lengthy quotation of one of the chief expositors of Orthodox Christian theology of the fourth century in response to your posting Joseph Smith's theological teaching (which is most un-Christian and by no means Orthodox), and all you can say is "It seems like this verse about people to watch out for fits him." Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but this is nothing more than special pleading in that case: Your guy revealed beautiful, clear, and true doctrines about God and is to be called a 'true prophet' because you say he is, while our (Christianity's) guy is a shyster because look at what this verse says!

It doesn't work that way. We can point to actual accomplishments of St. Cyril in preserving the Church against heresies (e.g., his 12 anathemas against Nestorius and their acceptance at the Council of Ephesus), so the presupposition that he led the Church or its faithful into error is refuted by what actually happened.
Dzheremi, with all do respect how do you know that Cyril was not teaching heresy himself? Yes he used the Bible to support his position, but so did the other people he was arguing against. How do you know that the teachings of this man were Truth and the others false? Please do not refer to the opinion of more men or popular vote in your answer.
 
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Rescued One

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Dzheremi, with all do respect how do you know that Cyril was not teaching heresy himself? Yes he used the Bible to support his position, but so did the other people he was arguing against. How do you know that the teachings of this man were Truth and the others false? Please do not refer to the opinion of more men or popular vote in your answer.

Why can't he use men? Mormons do it repeatedly.
 
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dzheremi

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Dzheremi, with all do respect how do you know that Cyril was not teaching heresy himself? Yes he used the Bible to support his position, but so did the other people he was arguing against. How do you know that the teachings of this man were Truth and the others false? Please do not refer to the opinion of more men or popular vote in your answer.

What is the point of such questioning but to slander people and attempt to induce confusion and division where there is none? "How do you know that...?" is not a sincere question, or at least not a sincerely answerable one, given the context in which it is invoked and the constraints you are attempting to place on the answers so that they may be acceptable to you as a Mormon. Again, the problem is that such questioning can come from anyone, towards anyone, for any reason. So we can only go by what actually happened in the real world in which we are all living, not your LDS alternate history fantasies where the orthodox Christians are the ones teaching heresies. Enough of that. You may add 'with all due respect', but that point of view deserves no respect. Come on. We cannot have a serious conversation where one side is saying "Tell me why you're saying that, and don't use any of these sources that I don't approve of". When I ask a question about Mormon theology, I expect you to use Mormon sources because you are a Mormon, not to only use Orthodox Christian sources, or Catholic Christian sources, or any of these other things that you are not. Don't even pretend to be asking me a question if you are going to follow it up with this trash about "the opinion of mere men or popular vote" -- again, as though Joseph Smith is not a mere man. You don't get to decide the terms by which anyone answers you, and I will thankfully reserve all judgment to the holy fathers who decided so much before us (including, but not limited to, the Bible you are using by which you dare to give heretics wiggle room so as to thoughtlessly slander those same fathers).

If I recall correctly, it is a charge against the Muslims by the great Syriac Orthodox saint Bar Hebraeus that they demand from us an apology for our religion not from our scriptures, but from those which they recognize. From your example, the same can be said of Mormons. So while I can say that HH St. Cyril taught rightly (you need only look into the Council of Ephesus and the anathemas against Nestorius accepted there, or any of HH's classic works in theology such as That Christ Is One or On The Incarnation), and back it up by looking at what actually happened (e.g., the condemnation of Nestorius and his party), what's the point of any of this if it is only going to be answered with another pseudo-question along the lines of "But how can you know that the exact opposite isn't what's true?"

Because that's not what actually happened, and I live in the real world. That's how. Feel free to believe in whatever you want to instead, but there is only one set of things in the list of 'what if' possibilities that actually happened (Nestorius was condemned). I recognize that to you this is just more evidence of the extremely early 'apostasy' of Christianity, but I just want you to recognize (and others who might read this to recognize) that the alternate history you are presenting is one in which the Council of Ephesus got it wrong, Nestorius is correct, and Mormons are apparently followers or advocates of Nestorius. This man who infamously said, in objecting to calling St. Mary Theotokos, that God could never have been a baby of two months old. That was his level of theological understanding when presented with quite standard festal proclamations of the Epiphany that "Christ was born days ago, and today He is baptized by John" (to quote St. Gregory of Nyssa). The trouble for him, and apparently for Mormons who wish to rehabilitate him for some reason, is that we do say that Christ was baptized in the Jordan. That's scriptural. That happened. And Christ was born, and hence was a baby for a time. There is no shame in that but that some people have wrong theology which makes them uncomfortable with the child Christ. But we are not uncomfortable, and Nestorius was wrong then, is wrong now, and will be wrong forever. Not because St. Cyril says so alone (since in fact he does not say so alone; he is far from the only saint to object to Nestorius), but because that is the consistent witness of 2,000 years of Christianity that these things happened, not other things that are more in keeping with what wrong-headed men like Nestorius or Joseph Smith can understand of God.

Hence it is traditional to understand instead that the honor paid to St. Mary which gave Nestorius such trouble is therefore theologically rooted in our recognition of the divinity of Christ Himself (and the one who cannot proclaim the same is therefore suspect, theologically speaking). As we sing in the Sunday psali in the Coptic Orthodox tradition "He who abides in light Whom no one can approach showed us His miracles / and you fed Him."


Anyone who has a problem with that has a problem with Christianity and traditional Christian theology. Mormonism, apparently like Nestorius, has a problem with that, and you do not deal with it by trying to turn the tables on those who are teaching rightly in order to exonerate the ancient heretics for the sake of your own more modern heretics.
 
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Jane_Doe

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What is the point of such questioning but to slander people and attempt to induce confusion and division where there is none?
I ask because I am interested in your answer. "How do you know" questions, aka epistemology, is foundational for theology, science, and all other searches for knowledge.

"How do you know that...?" is not a sincere question, or at least not a sincerely answerable one, given the context in which it is invoked and the constraints you are attempting to place on the answers so that they may be acceptable to you as a Mormon.
My religious affiliation should has no bearing on your epistemological philosophies nor your ability to explain them.

So we can only go by what actually happened in the real world in which we are all living, not your LDS alternate history fantasies where the orthodox Christians are the ones teaching heresies. Enough of that. You may add 'with all due respect', but that point of view deserves no respect. Come on.
Dzheremi I am being honest and sincere in my question here. Why are you attacking me?

I'm going to stop reading your post now. I do not understand why I am being lashed at for sincerely trying to learn about your beliefs and this is upsetting me.
 
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dzheremi

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A priori dismissal of the consensus of the fathers and the decisions of the early councils as "the opinion of mere men or popular vote" is both arrogant and indicative of a most insincere attempt to insert mockery and Restoriationist pseudo-ecclesiology into the discussion under the guise of learning about what others believe. You either want to learn why traditional Christians believe as they do, which in the case of Orthodox Christians like me necessarily includes learning the patristic and conciliar basis of our theology, or you do not. [Staff edit]

Besides, there is enough included in the post you have already said you aren't going to read to answer your questions, even if I have not restricted myself to only what you accept. So be it.
 
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Jane_Doe

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A priori dismissal of the consensus of the fathers and the decisions of the early councils as "the opinion of mere men or popular vote" is both arrogant and indicative of a most insincere attempt to insert mockery and Restoriationist pseudo-ecclesiology into the discussion under the guise of learning about what others believe. You either want to learn why traditional Christians believe as they do, which in the case of Orthodox Christians like me necessarily includes learning the patristic and conciliar basis of our theology, or you do not. [Staff edit]

Besides, there is enough included in the post you have already said you aren't going to read to answer your questions, even if I have not restricted myself to only what you accept. So be it.
My question was "How do you know that guy A speaks Truth as opposed to person B whom also sites scripture for his case?".

Answering "well guy C told me that guy A was right" is a poor epistemological methodology. Guy C might agree with Guy A, but then person D agrees with person B. Hence, you are reduced to the redundant question of "How do you know that guy C speaks Truth as opposed to person D whom also sites scripture for his case and support of this person?" If you then cite guy E and person F for the review, the cycle the again continues relentlessly.

Hence why I am asking for something outside of this cycle. Do you or do you not have such an epistemological method?

Aside-- I am not attacking you, and honestly admire your vast knowledge of a faith I know little about. [Staff edit]. I would really like to have a quality respectful conversation with you.
 
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withwonderingawe

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May God forgive you the arrogant blasphemies you have written against His beloved saint, our father St. Cyril.

As a Saint do you pray to him as Catholics do their Saints?

the only true God is brought into contrast; and the Son also, Who is by Nature in Him, and of Him, at once in diversity and in identity of Nature, according to a natural Unity. I say in diversity of Nature, because He has in fact an individual Existence; for the Son is the Son, and not the Father. In identity of Nature also, because the Son, Who came forth from Him, is inseparably joined by Nature, with the existence of His Father. For the Father is one with the Son, even though He is the Father; and is so spoken of, because He did in fact beget Him.



mmmm I would say Jesus is inseparably joined to God the Father as I am to my earthly father, I look in the mirror and I see him looking back at me. But my father and I have "an individual Existence".
 
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now faith

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Now_Faith said: "The Bible is a closed book Christ work is finished until his return."
Jane said: "There's a fundamental problem with your statement here: the Bible does not say this."

None of those say "The Bible is a closed book Christ work is finished until his return." Please provide the verse that says this exactly.
It doesn't work that way,you give me valid evidence that Christ came back ,gave a word to Joseph Smith and he was able to interpret it with magic rocks exactly.
Then lose the interpretation and some how rewrite it again,exactly.
But here is a clue have you ever heard the term It is finished?
What exactly did that mean?
I am not the one proclaiming another gospel,you are so this may be what your looking for

Galatians: 1. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
That is before the Mormon religon,and it is fundamental Bible doctrine.
Have you heard about 44 verses on Jesus Christ second coming?
Well we know he came here the first time,are we to assume his second coming was with Joseph Smith?
Has the dead in Christ been raised yet?
Common sense is exactly fundamental.
 
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withwonderingawe

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You don't get to decide the terms by which anyone answers you, and I will thankfully reserve all judgment to the holy fathers who decided so much before us (including, but not limited to, the Bible you are using by which you dare to give heretics wiggle room so as to thoughtlessly slander those same fathers).

The point I was trying to make is that Paul prophesied that false teachers would arise out of the Church membership and leaders. It behooves us thousands of years later to step back and ask God who and which doctrines.
 
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Jane_Doe

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It doesn't work that way
Actually that's EXACTLY how it works: if you make a claim you need to back it up. If you cannot provide such evidence, then the honest thing to do is admit such evidence does not exist.

So again I ask: please show me the verse which supports your claim "The Bible is a closed book Christ work is finished until his return.".
 
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now faith

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My question was "How do you know that guy A speaks Truth as opposed to person B whom also sites scripture for his case?".

Answering "well guy C told me that guy A was right" is a poor epistemological methodology. Guy C might agree with Guy A, but then person D agrees with person B. Hence, you are reduced to the redundant question of "How do you know that guy C speaks Truth as opposed to person D whom also sites scripture for his case and support of this person?" If you then cite guy E and person F for the review, the cycle the again continues relentlessly.

Hence why I am asking for something outside of this cycle. Do you or do you not have such an epistemological method?





Aside-- I am not attacking you, and honestly admire your vast knowledge of a faith I know little about. But I'm not going to let my curiosity about your faith be reason to withstand deeming attacks on my person. I would really like to have a quality respectful conversation with you.

You use 3 books in your theology,A King James Bible,a Book of Mormon and I think the other is a book of pearls.
God is not the Author of confusion!
How can you validate a religon based on one man's statements some 1800 years after the death of Christ and his Apostles?
What you are teaching is the blood of Christ was not enough for salvation, you teach your good works is required if you want to be a God,like God who was once a man.
It is unbelievable you cannot discern the fallacy in this doctrine.
 
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Jane_Doe

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You use 3 books in your theology,A King James Bible,a Book of Mormon and I think the other is a book of pearls.
God is not the Author of confusion!
How is this a source of confusion? Does having the Old and New Testaments cause confusion for you? No!

How can you validate a religon based on one man's statements some 1800 years after the death of Christ and his Apostles?
What you are teaching is the blood of Christ was not enough for salvation, you teach your good works is required if you want to be a God,like God who was once a man.
It is unbelievable you cannot discern the fallacy in this doctrine.
Who said my faith was based on one man's statements? It is not. Please stop making such wild assumptions.
 
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now faith

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Wikipedia

The early Nauvoo years were a period of doctrinal innovation. Smith introduced baptism for the dead in 1840, and in 1841, construction began on the Nauvoo Temple as a place for recovering lost ancient knowledge.[121] An 1841 revelation promised the restoration of the "fulness of the priesthood"; and in May 1842, Smith inaugurated a revised endowment or "first anointing".[122] The endowment resembled rites offreemasonry that Smith had observed two months earlier when he had been initiated into the Nauvoo Masonic lodge.[123] At first, the endowment was open only to men, who were initiated into the Anointed Quorum. For women, Smith introduced the Relief Society, a service club and sorority within which Smith predicted women would receive "the keys of the kingdom".[124] Smith also elaborated on his plan for a millennial kingdom. No longer envisioning the building of Zion in Nauvoo, Smith viewed Zion as encompassing all of North and South America, with Mormon settlements being "stakes" of Zion's metaphorical tent.[125] Zion also became less a refuge from an impending tribulationthan a great building project.[126] In the summer of 1842, Smith revealed a plan to establish the millennial Kingdom of God, which would eventually establish theocratic rule over the whole earth.[127]

Joseph Smith—History 1:53–54.

I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.

Why would you need a Bible when you have the book of mormon?
It appears Smith gave the Mormons all they needed to know,his self proclaimed title as Prophet of God has made his Word superior to God's Word.

I'm done with this,It's your salvation to work out.
Good bye
 
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