LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

[tickingclocker]

As we come unto Christ we add to his glory, he is glorified in us.

We can't add to what is already established as glory. Think about it. The sun's light shines on earth. When we stand in the sunshine, are we "adding" sunlight to the world--- or are we reflecting what light was already available?

We have no light of our own to offer God who alone is glory.

 

[tickingclocker]

What? Man cannot add to the glory of Christ, who is God, in any way. When we say in our hymns "we glorify You", it is a synonym for "praise", not at all meaning that we are somehow adding to His glory.

While in some sense we can say that Christ is glorified in us (as one definition of 'to glorify' is to make clearer the glory of God through ones own actions; this is precisely why we glorify and venerate saints in the more traditional churches -- it is a testament to the glory of God as manifested in their lives), we must be careful to always recognize and affirm that it is Christ who has glorified our nature by assuming it, not the other way around!

Amen, brother! What a way to wake up in this world pondering such a thought while watching the Lord's glorious sunrise!

Jesus did glorify our nature by assuming our form, on earth, while at the same time being Almighty God!

 

[Rescued One]

If you don't want to represent the mainstream Christians that is alright with me, but you certainly don't represent the LDS.

You aren't an authorized spokesperson for Mormons. I was not mistaken in my post and I have quite a bit of knowledge about Mormonism. Not only was I an active Mormon for many years, I've also studied it for decades.

 

[Peter1000]

Proverbs: 8. 22. The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26. While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28. When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29. When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30. Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31. Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32. Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. 33. Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. 34. Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. 35. For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36. But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. -

What does the word 'possessed' mean in verse 22?

 

[Rescued One]

2 Our Father Advanced and
Progressed Until He Became God (p. 152)

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “Our Father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a Father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).


President Joseph F. Smith taught: “I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions.... Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman” (Church News, 19 Sept. 1936, p. 2).

President Wilford Woodruff explained: “[God] has had his endowments a great many years ago. He has ascended to his thrones, principalities and powers in the eternities. We are his children.....We are here to fill a probation and receive an education” (Deseret News Weekly, 28 Sept. 1881, p. 546).

How does it help us to know that the basic elements of God’s life in a mortal world were the same as ours? President Brigham Young explained:

“He is our Father—the Father of our Spirits—and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are....

“...There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through....

“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being” (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290)...

President Joseph F. Smith said: "We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 64).
(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 152-154)

He progressed until he became God.

 

[Peter1000]

Amen, brother! What a way to wake up in this world pondering such a thought while watching the Lord's glorious sunrise!

Jesus did glorify our nature by assuming our form, on earth, while at the same time being Almighty God!

How does letting our light so shine before men, that they may see our good works, and it glorifies our Father who is in heaven? How does our good works, before men glorify God? (Read Matthew 5:16)

 

[Peter1000]

We can't add to what is already established as glory. Think about it. The sun's light shines on earth. When we stand in the sunshine, are we "adding" sunlight to the world--- or are we reflecting what light was already available?

We have no light of our own to offer God who alone is glory.

Have you ever read what Matthew said about our light. Yes, the same Matthew that you read in the NT.
Read Matthew 5:16 and explain to me:
1) what is this light Matthew says we have?
2) how does our good works, seen by men, glorify God?

Thank you.

 

[Ran77]

You aren't an authorized spokesperson for Mormons. I was not mistaken in my post and I have quite a bit of knowledge about Mormonism. Not only was I an active Mormon for many years, I've also studied it for decades.

Your posts routinely misrepresent our beliefs and offer variations to our doctrines which have been twisted by you. You are not LDS so you shouldn't be answering for us.

 

[Peter1000]

God cannot "progress in glory" (whom Jesus is) when God IS glorified already. What does "glorified" mean to you? Is it a state of being or a graduated state you attain? If its a graduated state you must attain, then you cannot be "glorified" if there is a lack somewhere in their person. It's either glorified or not glorified. You cannot have both in one person at the same time.

Glorified is a perfect permanent state of being, just like divine. There is no "perfected" when it comes to the divine. Only perfect.

Then how is it that Jesus says this:
Read Luke 13:32
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Tell me what changed on the 3rd day that made Jesus 'perfect', according to Jesus?

 

[dzheremi]

Then how is it that Jesus says this:
Read Luke 13:32
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Tell me what changed on the 3rd day that made Jesus 'perfect', according to Jesus?

The Greek word here is τελειοῦμαι, meaning (I) 'accomplish', 'finish', 'fulfill', '(make) perfect', etc. Here is the entry from Strong's concordance, which makes it clear that this is not something having to do with Christ's nature, but with His mission. In that context, what is 'completed' by Christ on that day should be obvious: He is risen from the dead, conquering death by death and offering life to those in the tombs (to paraphrase the Byzantine troparion for Good Friday).

 

[Peter1000]

No,no,no.

Did Christ progress to the Godhead? No
Was God once a man that became a God ? No.
Is God a triune spirit being? Yes
Is God outside of time space and matter? Yes

What God has created cannot put boundaries on him,and He created all things.

Is there any way a man can become God ? No
Satan wanted to become as God,it did not go well for him.
As Christians we share in the divine nature of God through Christ and Christ alone.
There is only one way,one truth,and one life eternal and that is in Christ and him alone.

So the question was, 'Is Christ now a mortal man'? you say 'no'.

The next question was, 'Is Christ now subject to a mortal death? you say 'no'.

The last question was, 'does Christ now have a physical body of flesh and blood? you say 'no'.

If you said 'no' to these 3 questions, (which you did), then you have admitted that Jesus changed. Did Christ progress? Read Luke 13:32, Jesus says he was perfected after 3 days, or after his resurrection. Interesting.
What change did Jesus experience from day 2 to day 3 when he was perfected?

 

[Peter1000]

The Greek word here is τελειοῦμαι, meaning (I) 'accomplish', 'finish', 'fulfill', '(make) perfect', etc. Here is the entry from Strong's concordance, which makes it clear that this is not something having to do with Christ's nature, but with His mission. In that context, what is 'completed' by Christ on that day should be obvious: He is risen from the dead, conquering death by death and offering life to those in the tombs (to paraphrase the Byzantine troparion for Good Friday).

If one of the meanings of the Greek word is (make) perfect, then perhaps this is the case.

Strong is biased against anything to do with 'perfection'. Mainline Christians are biased against anything to do with 'perfection'. So it is not surprizing that Strong would sidestep 'perfection' and tell us that when Jesus said, 'I will be perfected', he really meant 'my mission will be accomplished'.

To me there is light years of space between these 2 concepts. For instance, when Jesus said this, he was in a body of flesh and blood and bone and spirit, a very corruptible, and non-perfect body. When he was resurrected, he was in a perfect, uncorruptible, body of flesh and bone and spirit. Was it a better body than what he had 3 days earlier, yes, did this make him perfect, or more perfect? Could this be what Jesus meant when he said in 3 days, i will be perfected. Makes sense to me.

 

[Rescued One]

Your posts routinely misrepresent our beliefs and offer variations to our doctrines which have been twisted by you. You are not LDS so you shouldn't be answering for us.

Show us just one instance of my misquoting your leaders. I didn't answer for you. I did it for people who want to know what you didn't tell them. Prove to us that the Mormon teaching about resurrected beings is that they have bodies of flesh and blood.

 

[Rescued One]

... For instance, when Jesus said this, he was in a body of flesh and blood and bone and spirit, a very corruptible, and non-perfect body. When he was resurrected, he was in a perfect, uncorruptible, body of flesh and bone and spirit...

Thank you. Honesty matters.

 

[tickingclocker]

How does letting our light so shine before men, that they may see our good works, and it glorifies our Father who is in heaven? How does our good works, before men glorify God? (Read Matthew 5:16)

They are not "our" works, at least not in Christianity. Good work, aka work that bears spiritual fruit which glorifies God, is divine via the HS who dwells in the believer. The believer is not divine. The HS which prompts the work and the success of the effort glorifies God. A tool glorifies the hand that wields it. Who praises the trumpet when its the trumpet player making the music?

 

[dzheremi]

If one of the meanings of the Greek word is (make) perfect, then perhaps this is the case.

Strong is biased against anything to do with 'perfection'. Mainline Christians are biased against anything to do with 'perfection'. So it is not surprizing that Strong would sidestep 'perfection' and tell us that when Jesus said, 'I will be perfected', he really meant 'my mission will be accomplished'.

To me there is light years of space between these 2 concepts. For instance, when Jesus said this, he was in a body of flesh and blood and bone and spirit, a very corruptible, and non-perfect body. When he was resurrected, he was in a perfect, uncorruptible, body of flesh and bone and spirit. Was it a better body than what he had 3 days earlier, yes, did this make him perfect, or more perfect? Could this be what Jesus meant when he said in 3 days, i will be perfected. Makes sense to me.

Look, Peter, there's what you want to make of it for your own doctrinal/LDS purposes, and there's the range of what the word actually means according to the concordance. I've given you a link that explains the use of that word and related forms as they actually occur in the Bible. All this other commentary is your LDS spin on things, which there's no reason to treat as any less biased than you are currently treating Strong's concordance. Since that concordance is a collection of verses in which the word actually occurs, together with the range of meanings of the word and related forms, I'd say it's significantly less biased than you are being right now, since Strong obviously does not have a need to push one of the many definitions (which include "I am perfected" as definition c at the top of the page, so I don't know how you can claim that Strong somehow 'sidesteps' perfection) as 'what the verse really means' in connection to LDS or other specific theology, while you do.

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Rescued One]

Yes. What I'm getting at is that it seems as if it's taught (or, that it is consistent with Mormon theology) that God was once not-God then progressed to/achieved Godhood, or, if He was God, wasn't fully God, and had to progress to/achieve full Godhood from not-full-Godhood.

2 Our Father Advanced and
Progressed Until He Became God (p. 152)

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “Our Father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a Father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).


President Joseph F. Smith taught: “I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions.... Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman” (Church News, 19 Sept. 1936, p. 2).

President Wilford Woodruff explained: “[God] has had his endowments a great many years ago. He has ascended to his thrones, principalities and powers in the eternities. We are his children.....We are here to fill a probation and receive an education” (Deseret News Weekly, 28 Sept. 1881, p. 546).

How does it help us to know that the basic elements of God’s life in a mortal world were the same as ours? President Brigham Young explained:

“He is our Father—the Father of our Spirits—and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are....

“...There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through....

“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being” (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290)...

President Joseph F. Smith said: "We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when he was passing through this, or a similar ordeal" (Gospel Doctrine, p. 64).
(Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 152-154)

He progressed until he became God.

“He is our Father—the Father of our Spirits—and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are...."

 

[tickingclocker]

Have you ever read what Matthew said about our light. Yes, the same Matthew that you read in the NT.
Read Matthew 5:16 and explain to me:
1) what is this light Matthew says we have?
2) how does our good works, seen by men, glorify God?

Thank you.

You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill cannot be hidden. (Matt 5:14)
Why did Jesus call them the light of the world? Because they were humans? Because they talked with Jesus? Because they had their own personal lights to offer the world? Christians offer God's light to the world, not our own because we possess none of ourselves. Without the HS, all we have to offer to the world is nothing but our own fellow darkness. That is what Matthew is saying Jesus said.

People do not light a lamp and put it under a basket but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before people, so that they can see your good deeds and give honor to your Father in heaven. (Matt 5:15, 16)
a. Just like an ordinary candle can't help but expose what is in the darkness, neither will you be able to now that you know the truth.
b. Don't keep the Gospel of salvation to yourself.


And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (Eph 2:1-3)

Peter, who should really get the credit for the things we do done in the power of God? Us?

You're welcome.

 

[Ran77]

Show us just one instance of my misquoting your leaders. I didn't answer for you. I did it for people who want to know what you didn't tell them. Prove to us that the Mormon teaching about resurrected beings is that they have bodies of flesh and blood.

I didn't claim that you misquote our leaders. I stated that you twist their words to mean something else. I've pointed it out many times in the past and will make sure to take the time to point it out again the next time you decide to the meaning of our doctrines.

However, your post did twist the meaning of my comment. You changed it from a claim against the way you alter LDS doctrines to a claim of how you misquote our leaders. This is a good example of what you do with the quotes from our leaders.

 

[tickingclocker]

Then how is it that Jesus says this:
Read Luke 13:32
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Tell me what changed on the 3rd day that made Jesus 'perfect', according to Jesus?

By the acceptance of His perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world, knowing He would rise triumphant over death and sin, thus giving the old adversary and accuser the final boot. Really, Peter, you should know this.

Notice Jesus didn't say He would start a course on "godhood exaltation" once He rose from the dead. God's perfect plan was now perfectly complete. Perfect!