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LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

Rescued One

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So then you are polytheistic?

You're skipping John 17 "thine they were, and thou gavest them me" if we were not already the children of God then how did we already belong to him and how could he give what was not his?

We, the elect, were His in the fact that we were going to be saved. Sin separates us from God and all have sinned.

I believe in ONE GOD. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

Satan created children?

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Colossians 1
The Supremacy of Christ

(Hebrews 1:1-14)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Gen 1&2...
So during this creative process where God created all the host of heaven and earth did Satan create children? If God created all the host of heaven and earth how is it Satan is not a child of God also?

Satan wasn't elected. Satan created nothing. Read Colossians 1. Mankind became separated from God when Adam sinned (Adam sinned by following Satan instead of God). We can only become reconciled to God through faith in Christ.
 
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withwonderingawe

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I believe in ONE GOD. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God.

But you said; The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

You need to make up your mind, I'm finding this impossible to follow.

The rest of your posting does not answer my questions at all.
 
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Rescued One

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But you said; The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

You need to make up your mind, I'm finding this impossible to follow.

The rest of your posting does not answer my questions at all.

You can't follow because you're a Mormon. I answered your questions.
 
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Rescued One

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we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

Hopefully, Via Crucis and dzheremi can explain this, because this is truth about God, but Mormons want Gods to be exalted men and are polytheistic, so it probably won't make sense anyway.
 
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Rescued One

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I can't follow because it's all so illogical

You are a human who wants God to have been a finite being, and what you call logical or illogical aren't spiritual truths. God is the only God there is. In order for Him to be grasped by your finite mind, you make Him into a man.
 
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now faith

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Simon wanted to buy the power to give the HS by the laying on of hands as he had seen Peter do. I'm not sure why you would use that event to prove that works are not in God's plan of salvation?

Jesus, who is the creator of the plan of salvation did preach that works are important. Whatever Jesus says in the bible should be read over and over until you believe them.
So here is what Jesus said about works:
John 10:32
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father...
(So we know that Jesus did many good works and he was not ashamed of his good works.)

John 5:36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. He said this again in John 10:25.
(So you see Jesus had a greater witness than John the Baptist, it was his works that bear witness to the world that his Father had sent him. So it will be with us, it is our works that will bear witness to the world that we are the children of God. This is a very important witness.)

John 10:38
But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
(Again Jesus says that it is because of his works that people believe that the Father is in him and he is in the Father. It is exactly the same for us. Our good works also declare that the Father is in us and we are in the Father.)

Revelations 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
(So Jesus is telling us to do good works for it is by our goods works that we will be judged.)

I want to be a witness to Jesus Christ,
I want to have the Father in me and I want to be in the Father.
I want my judgement to go well, so I can live with God and Jesus in the K of H.

So I better be willing to do good works, as Jesus says. Do no belittle good works.

You can qoute all the Bible verse you want,but if you believe God progressed from man ,or man will be a God you are in denial of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
As I read the replies Mormons seem to agree on the Gospel, until they slide into their dogma of fantasy books and stories of new revelation.
 
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dzheremi

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But you said; The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

You need to make up your mind, I'm finding this impossible to follow.

What are you having difficulty with concerning this?

It is important to note here that the Church has always condemned modalism, which is essentially what you are espousing if you teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all one person, rather than three persons who are one God. The 'how' behind traditional monotheistic Trinitarianism (that is to say, the theology of Christianity) is that the three persons are homoousios, which is a term I have discussed at length in other threads which I believe you participated in, so I won't rehash it here unless there is some need to. From what I remember in that discussion, it seems that Mormons have trouble with the idea that ousia does not refer to physical/material reality, but to substance/essence, such that it was basically impossible to carry on a conversation about the Christian usage of the term, as Mormons continuously attempted to make it fit with their own, non-Christian theology about God the Father having a physical body and such. There's only so many times and so many ways you can repeat "No, that's not what it means; that's not what we're talking about" before you run out of ways to explain it, which I suppose to some people is a kind of victory.

So part of me is tempted to agree with Phoebe Ann that this might not be something that Mormons can understand, since it involves having to step outside of the theological paradigm they have inherited from their religion (since LDS theology is not Christian theology), but perhaps your issues with it are different than those that arose in the previous conversation.
 
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now faith

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No he tried the buy the power to give the Holy Ghost. He sees the many miracles Philip is able to preform and believes. His belief is based on miracles rather than on a witness of the Holy Spirit for none of them had receive the Holy Ghost. Then Peter and John come and

"prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:... Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."

It does not say what kind of manifestation was seen by Simon as the Holy Ghost was given but he recognized this as a great power, greater than any power he had as a sorcerer. He was never able to heal anyone. He says;

"And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost." acts 8

It was the power of the Holy Priesthood he wanted to buy. Peter call him to repentance and say "thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money" This what the Book of Mormon calls priestcraft.

"... behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world"

With his sorcery he was paid and he didn't understand that the gifts of the spirit are free.

Yes sounds good ,but there exist a deeper doctrine inside your religon.

Wikipedia:

In consequence of the atonement of Jesus Christ, a son or daughter of God the Father may overcome physical and spiritual death and return to live with God forever. Those individuals who receive this—which is described as the "greatest gift of God"[84]—are said to enter into a state of "exaltation" after they are resurrected.[71] Exaltation is also called "salvation" or "eternal life".[85]

Exaltation is "the kind of life God lives".[71] In other words, exalted beings will live in great glory, be perfect, and possess all knowledge and wisdom.[71] Exalted beings will live forever with God the Father and Jesus Christ, will become gods and goddesses, will live with their righteous earthly family members, and will receive the fulness of joy enjoyed by God and Christ.[71] One of the key qualifications for exaltation is being united in a celestial marriage to an opposite-sex partner.[80][86]Such a union can be created during mortality, or it can be created after death by proxy marriages; all such sealings, for the living or for the dead, are performed in temples.[87]

Humans who fall short of exaltation still receive an immortal physical body. Most will be awarded one of three kingdoms of glory, whether it be the celestial, terrestrial, or telestial kingdoms.[68] Those who are exalted are said to inhabit the "highest degree" of the celestial kingdom.[88] Satan, his spirit followers, and a select number of people who lived on the earth will receive no glory and will be called the sons of perdition.[68]



 
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now faith

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That passage is often taken out of context by those who really don't want to understand what Nephi is saying. He was living under the Law of Moses a law which he says is a dead law for it can not save them. He teaches his children to look forward to Christ.

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.
25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.
26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.
27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

Let's put in modern terms; Only the atonement made by Christ can save us, it is only through his blood that we can receive a remission of sin. And we know that the act of baptism alone can not save us put we do it because we have been commanded to do it. We know good works can not save us but we do them because we have been commanded to, that's all we can do.

Who is Nephi?
You use the King James Bible there are no books by that name.
Did Joseph Smith write this?
What is the book of Moses?
Are you aware that Moses was the author of the first 5 books of the Bible?
In the New Testament Jesus refers to Moses as the Author.

How do you find these new Revelations?
 
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fatboys

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Who is Nephi?
You use the King James Bible there are no books by that name.
Did Joseph Smith write this?
What is the book of Moses?
Are you aware that Moses was the author of the first 5 books of the Bible?
In the New Testament Jesus refers to Moses as the Author.

How do you find these new Revelations?
Because of the restoration God has revealed more of his word to man. Nephi was a prophet that lived six hundred years before Christ. He can be found in the Book of Mormon which is a history of a people that lived in Jerusalem and God told them to leave before it was destroyed. They built a boat and sailed it to the new world where they flourished until they had many wars. One of the greatest events is when Christ appeared to them after his death and resurrection.
 
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withwonderingawe

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The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Who is Nephi?
You use the King James Bible there are no books by that name.
Did Joseph Smith write this?
What is the book of Moses?
Are you aware that Moses was the author of the first 5 books of the Bible?
In the New Testament Jesus refers to Moses as the Author.

How do you find these new Revelations?

You are the one that misquoted the Book of Mormon, I was just trying to set the record straight.

Did my doing that upset your preconceived idea of what Mormons believe?
 
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withwonderingawe

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Yes sounds good ,but there exist a deeper doctrine inside your religon.

Wikipedia:

In consequence of the atonement of Jesus Christ, a son or daughter of God the Father may overcome physical and spiritual death and return to live with God forever. Those individuals who receive this—which is described as the "greatest gift of God"[84]—are said to enter into a state of "exaltation" after they are resurrected.[71] Exaltation is also called "salvation" or "eternal life".[85]

Exaltation is "the kind of life God lives".[71] In other words, exalted beings will live in great glory, be perfect, and possess all knowledge and wisdom.[71] Exalted beings will live forever with God the Father and Jesus Christ, will become gods and goddesses, will live with their righteous earthly family members, and will receive the fulness of joy enjoyed by God and Christ.[71] One of the key qualifications for exaltation is being united in a celestial marriage to an opposite-sex partner.[80][86]Such a union can be created during mortality, or it can be created after death by proxy marriages; all such sealings, for the living or for the dead, are performed in temples.[87]

Humans who fall short of exaltation still receive an immortal physical body. Most will be awarded one of three kingdoms of glory, whether it be the celestial, terrestrial, or telestial kingdoms.[68] Those who are exalted are said to inhabit the "highest degree" of the celestial kingdom.[88] Satan, his spirit followers, and a select number of people who lived on the earth will receive no glory and will be called the sons of perdition.[68]

Yes, we believe that eventually all men except a small number of sons of perdition will be forgiven and receive a glory.

1Cor 15
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead
 
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Rescued One

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John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

But you don't comprehend that God is not three men. This verse is not about comprehending God.
 
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withwonderingawe

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But you don't comprehend that God is not three men. This verse is not about comprehending God.


Jesus taught "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" John 17

Your creed written by men, by the arm of flesh tells me God is incomprehensible when the Bible says it's the darkness which can not comprehend.

Joseph Smith God's prophet said;
"This is life eternal"--to know God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent. If any man, not knowing what kind of a being God is, inquires to know if the declaration of the apostle is true--and searches diligently his own heart--he will admit that he has not eternal life; for there can be no eternal life on any other principle. My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God,...I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him....First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another."

Let's see one tells me I can not understand God and the other explains God very plainly. Which should I believe?
 
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dzheremi

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Jesus taught "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" John 17

Your creed written by men, by the arm of flesh tells me God is incomprehensible when the Bible says it's the darkness which can not comprehend.

"Your creed was written by men" -- and Joseph Smith was what, then? A man, correct? It detracts from whatever point you are trying to make by following this with a lengthy exposition from your preferred man, Joseph Smith.

And so as you done with your own church's chief theologian, here is an actual Church father's exposition on the piece of scripture that you have mutilated in order to continue to deny God. From our father among the saints St. Cyril of Alexandria:


CHAPTER V. That the Son will not be excluded from being true God, even though He named God the Father the only true God.

3 And this is life eternal, that they should know Thee the only true God, and Him Whom Thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

He defines faith as the mother of eternal life, and says that the power of the true knowledge of God will be such as to cause us to remain for ever in a state of incorruption, and blessedness, and sanctification. And we say that that is true knowledge of God, which cannot incur the reproach of turning aside to aught else, or running after things unseemly. For some have worshipped the creature rather than the Creator, and have dared to say to a block of wood: Thou art my Father; and to a stone, Thou hast begotten me. For to such abysmal ignorance did miserable men relapse, that they even gave, in all its fulness, the great Name of God, to senseless blocks of wood; and invested them with the ineffable glory of that Nature, which is over all. He calls God the Father, then, the only true God, by contrast to spurious gods, and with the intention to distinguish the true God, from those who are so named in error; for this is the object of His words. Very appropriately, then, He first speaks of God as being One and One only, and then makes mention of His own glory in the words: And Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent. For a man can in nowise attain to complete knowledge of the Father, unless side by side, and in most intimate connexion with it, he lay hold on the knowledge of His Offspring; that is, the Son. For, if a man know what the Father is, he cannot but know also the Son. When, then, He said that the Father was the true God, He did not exclude Himself. For being in Him, and of Him, by Nature, He will be also Himself the true God and the only God, as He is the only God: for beside Him, there is none other god who is the only true God. For the gods of the heathen are devils. For the creation is enslaved, and I know not how any worship them, or sink into such a slough of unreasoning and sensuous folly. With the many gods, then, in this world, who are erroneously so conceived, and have won this spurious title, the only true God is brought into contrast; and the Son also, Who is by Nature in Him, and of Him, at once in diversity and in identity of Nature, according to a natural Unity. I say in diversity of Nature, because He has in fact an individual Existence; for the Son is the Son, and not the Father. In identity of Nature also, because the Son, Who came forth from Him, is inseparably joined by Nature, with the existence of His Father. For the Father is one with the Son, even though He is the Father; and is so spoken of, because He did in fact beget Him.

-- Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John, LFC 43, 48 (1874/1885), Book 11, Vol.2 [Translator: T. Randell] (Italics at source)

Joseph Smith God's prophet said;
"This is life eternal"--to know God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent. If any man, not knowing what kind of a being God is, inquires to know if the declaration of the apostle is true--and searches diligently his own heart--he will admit that he has not eternal life; for there can be no eternal life on any other principle. My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God,...I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him....First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another."

Let's see one tells me I can not understand God and the other explains God very plainly. Which should I believe?

You should believe St. Cyril of Alexandria. How is this even a question? Is the 'plainness' of explanation in conveying theology what determines what is true and what is not? No.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Now_Faith said: "The Bible is a closed book Christ work is finished until his return."
Jane said: "There's a fundamental problem with your statement here: the Bible does not say this."
1st and second Thessalonians, Daniel,and Revelation come to mind
None of those say "The Bible is a closed book Christ work is finished until his return." Please provide the verse that says this exactly.
 
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withwonderingawe

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"Your creed was written by men" -- and Joseph Smith was what, then? A man, correct? It detracts from whatever point you are trying to make by following this with a lengthy exposition from your preferred man, Joseph Smith.

And so as you done with your own church's chief theologian, here is an actual Church father's exposition on the piece of scripture that you have mutilated in order to continue to deny God. From our father among the saints St. Cyril of Alexandria:


CHAPTER V. That the Son will not be excluded from being true God, even though He named God the Father the only true God.

3 And this is life eternal, that they should know Thee the only true God, and Him Whom Thou didst send, even Jesus Christ.

He defines faith as the mother of eternal life, and says that the power of the true knowledge of God will be such as to cause us to remain for ever in a state of incorruption, and blessedness, and sanctification. And we say that that is true knowledge of God, which cannot incur the reproach of turning aside to aught else, or running after things unseemly. For some have worshipped the creature rather than the Creator, and have dared to say to a block of wood: Thou art my Father; and to a stone, Thou hast begotten me. For to such abysmal ignorance did miserable men relapse, that they even gave, in all its fulness, the great Name of God, to senseless blocks of wood; and invested them with the ineffable glory of that Nature, which is over all. He calls God the Father, then, the only true God, by contrast to spurious gods, and with the intention to distinguish the true God, from those who are so named in error; for this is the object of His words. Very appropriately, then, He first speaks of God as being One and One only, and then makes mention of His own glory in the words: And Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent. For a man can in nowise attain to complete knowledge of the Father, unless side by side, and in most intimate connexion with it, he lay hold on the knowledge of His Offspring; that is, the Son. For, if a man know what the Father is, he cannot but know also the Son. When, then, He said that the Father was the true God, He did not exclude Himself. For being in Him, and of Him, by Nature, He will be also Himself the true God and the only God, as He is the only God: for beside Him, there is none other god who is the only true God. For the gods of the heathen are devils. For the creation is enslaved, and I know not how any worship them, or sink into such a slough of unreasoning and sensuous folly. With the many gods, then, in this world, who are erroneously so conceived, and have won this spurious title, the only true God is brought into contrast; and the Son also, Who is by Nature in Him, and of Him, at once in diversity and in identity of Nature, according to a natural Unity. I say in diversity of Nature, because He has in fact an individual Existence; for the Son is the Son, and not the Father. In identity of Nature also, because the Son, Who came forth from Him, is inseparably joined by Nature, with the existence of His Father. For the Father is one with the Son, even though He is the Father; and is so spoken of, because He did in fact beget Him.

-- Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John, LFC 43, 48 (1874/1885), Book 11, Vol.2 [Translator: T. Randell] (Italics at source)



You should believe St. Cyril of Alexandria. How is this even a question? Is the 'plainness' of explanation in conveying theology what determines what is true and what is not? No.

Was Cyril of Alexandria a prophet of God?

Looked him up "Cyril wrote extensively and was a leading protagonist in the Christological controversies of the late-4th and 5th centuries. He was a central figure in the Council of Ephesus in 431"

"And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.....Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,....For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them." Act 20

Mmm seems to fit the bill
 
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Rescued One

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Jesus taught "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" John 17

Your creed written by men, by the arm of flesh tells me God is incomprehensible when the Bible says it's the darkness which can not comprehend.

Joseph Smith God's prophet said;
"This is life eternal"--to know God and Jesus Christ, whom he has sent. If any man, not knowing what kind of a being God is, inquires to know if the declaration of the apostle is true--and searches diligently his own heart--he will admit that he has not eternal life; for there can be no eternal life on any other principle. My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God,...I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him....First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heaven, is a man like one of you. That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today and you were to see the great God who holds this world in its orbit and upholds all things by his power, you would see him in the image and very form of a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion and image of God. He received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him as one man talks and communes with another."

Let's see one tells me I can not understand God and the other explains God very plainly. Which should I believe?


Joseph Smith was an enemy to God. I know Jesus because I am His sheep. You have a man for a god and because he isn't the God of the Bible you don't know the true God. Knowing God is very different from describing a man or even claiming that you understand a completely unique uncreated Being.

Psalm 113
1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise, O ye servants of the LORD, praise the name of the LORD.

2 Blessed be the name of the LORD from this time forth and for evermore.

3 From the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same the LORD'S name is to be praised.

4 The LORD is high above all nations, and his glory above the heavens.

5 Who is like unto the LORD our God, who dwelleth on high,

6 Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth!

7 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth the needy out of the dunghill;

8 That he may set him with princes, even with the princes of his people.

9 He maketh the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children. Praise ye the LOR

Jeremiah 10
6 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great, and thy name is great in might.

Books are written by scribes and authors. The Bible was inspired by God. Joseph Smith, a man, made false claims about the various books he presented to his followers.
 
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