LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

[dzheremi]

Again, I'm not saying that there is no link. I'm saying that the link, if there is one, is not being established in the post(s), so it reads like it's coming out of left field. "I feel that the Trinity...", etc. is not an answer to where Mormonism's first God comes from.

 

[withwonderingawe]

If he came from a father, then how can he himself be the original/first God?

Is there somewhere in the Bible where it say Jesus was the original first God?

"And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, .... hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen" Rev 1

God has a Father!

 

[dzheremi]

Of course Jesus Christ has a Father. The difference is that Mormonism says that God had a father, who had a father, who had a father, and so on and so forth. So whereas Christ is the Only-Begotten of the Father, you have the Father somehow be only one in a long line of similar 'fathers', stretching back over the aeons. So I am asking: Where did the first of these come from? We know where Christ came from, but in Christianity God the Father has no father. This is not the case in Mormonism.

 

[Peter1000]

Of course Jesus Christ has a Father. The difference is that Mormonism says that God had a father, who had a father, who had a father, and so on and so forth. So whereas Christ is the Only-Begotten of the Father, you have the Father somehow be only one in a long line of similar 'fathers', stretching back over the aeons. So I am asking: Where did the first of these come from? We know where Christ came from, but in Christianity God the Father has no father. This is not the case in Mormonism.

The answer to your question is the same answer you would give me.

He was uncreated and has existed from the beginning and will exist forever and ever.

Is that the answer you would have given me if I would have asked you where the 1 God came from?

 

[BigDaddy4]

The answer to your question is the same answer you would give me.

He was uncreated and has existed from the beginning and will exist forever and ever.

Is that the answer you would have given me if I would have asked you where the 1 God came from?

So endless "god the fathers" have always existed?

 

[Peter1000]

So endless "god the fathers" have always existed?

Yes.

And I could add, your response is the same as if you aswered the question, 'where did the 1 God come from?'
the answer would be endless 'God' has always existed.

So, let me ask the question: 'where did the 1 God come from'?

 

[dzheremi]

God didn't come from anywhere. Rather, everything came from Him. Hence there is no "who had a father, who had a father, who had a father, etc." when speaking of God. Jesus Christ certainly has a genealogy (see Matthew 1), as every person would, but you'll note that it is traced up to Joseph, who it is specified later (1:18) is not the Father of Jesus Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

God didn't come from anywhere. Rather, everything came from Him. Hence there is no "who had a father, who had a father, who had a father, etc." when speaking of God. Jesus Christ certainly has a genealogy (see Matthew 1), as every person would, but you'll note that it is traced up to Joseph, who it is specified later (1:18) is not the Father of Jesus Christ.

Everything came from Him, pertaining to this earth and it's heavens.

 

[Peter1000]

God didn't come from anywhere. Rather, everything came from Him. Hence there is no "who had a father, who had a father, who had a father, etc." when speaking of God. Jesus Christ certainly has a genealogy (see Matthew 1), as every person would, but you'll note that it is traced up to Joseph, who it is specified later (1:18) is not the Father of Jesus Christ.

We all know that about Jesus's geneology, what is your point with this statement?

 

[dzheremi]

We all know that, what is your point with this statement?

You asked "Where did the one God come from?", so I answered "He didn't come from anywhere; everything came from Him."

I'm not sure how to make it any clearer than that. It's a direct answer to your question.

 

[Peter1000]

You asked "Where did the one God come from?", so I answered "He didn't come from anywhere; everything came from Him."

I'm not sure how to make it any clearer than that. It's a direct answer to your question.

It is not a direct answer. You say He didn't come from anywhere. Well that answers it, doesn't it?

I suspect that is the best you can come up with too. I don't really mean to shake a stick at you, but you ask me where did the first God come from. My answer to you then is: He did not come from anywhere, everthing came from Him. There, that should be helpful to you also.

 

[dzheremi]

But again, how did he not come from anywhere, if he himself had a father, who had a father, etc.? That's what doesn't make sense. You're saying that he didn't come from anywhere as though it should be self-evident, but at the same time you're establishing him as one in a supposedly endless line of 'god the fathers' who themselves had fathers. So it's really not the same.

 

[NYCGuy]

But again, how did he not come from anywhere, if he himself had a father, who had a father, etc.? That's what doesn't make sense. You're saying that he didn't come from anywhere as though it should be self-evident, but at the same time you're establishing him as one in a supposedly endless line of 'god the fathers' who themselves had fathers. So it's really not the same.

Mormons have an idea that we all have an eternal "intelligence" within us, that has always existed, never created. So, this is how he can engage in double speak. They will say that we are all literal spirit children of heavenly parents, that Jesus Christ is literally the first born spirit son of God. However, they'll also say that Jesus is eternal because of that eternal intelligence (as well, we're all eternal for the same reason). So, a Mormon could say that the Father had a Father who had a Father, etc., while at the same time say that He is eternal and has always existed, because of that uncreated eternal intelligence.

You must also know that Mormons reject creation from nothing, and instead believe that God creating was more "organizing" pre-existing, eternal, matter, including those eternal intelligences, from which our heavenly parents "created" us as their literal spirit children.

 

[dzheremi]

I see.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned this 'intelligences' concept, but I didn't connect it to any kind of creation of Christ or of the Father, because...well, I guess because I'm a Christian, so I take it as a basic theological concept that God is not created. That's Arianism (with their belief that Christ is a lesser being than the Father, created by Him rather than being of the same substance/essence/consubstantial/homoousios), which if I recall correctly Peter earlier objected to being identified with. I'm not sure on what basis, if what you write is true, but there you have it.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, God is eternal and uncreated because the 'stuff' of which He is organized (intelligences) is itself eternal and uncreated. Is that right?

Cos, yeah...that's light-years away from anything I would have guessed (I thought Mormons were more like ordinary unitarians). It's got a weird sort of gnostic element to it, doesn't it? If you ever read any gnostic writings (which I don't make a point of doing, but have done because there is a large body of gnostic writings in Coptic, the liturgical language of my church), you can't help but notice that they are really interested in the organization of the universe, and they have all kinds of esoteric creation stories and cosmological treatises. It's fascinating stuff, at least from an anthropological point of view, but I don't know that it really makes for a very coherent or cohesive theological outlook.

Anyway, thanks for that. I eagerly await Peter's response, as I'm sure that a Mormon's perspective in this context would make distinctions that I wouldn't (know to) make that might make this stuff at least sound a little more mainstream.

 

[dzheremi]

Follow up: It also begs the question -- God is organized of eternal intelligences, so who is doing that organizing? Another God? (That is to say, another one of the endless 'God the Fathers'?)

Hmmm. Now I can understand how they can explain things as they do, but it seems like it just kicks the can down the road a bit.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Yes.

And I could add, your response is the same as if you aswered the question, 'where did the 1 God come from?'
the answer would be endless 'God' has always existed.

So, let me ask the question: 'where did the 1 God come from'?

God always existed as God. He never not existed or never existed as not God. I AM. Not, I was... or I came from...

 

[fatboys]

I see.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned this 'intelligences' concept, but I didn't connect it to any kind of creation of Christ or of the Father, because...well, I guess because I'm a Christian, so I take it as a basic theological concept that God is not created. That's Arianism (with their belief that Christ is a lesser being than the Father, created by Him rather than being of the same substance/essence/consubstantial/homoousios), which if I recall correctly Peter earlier objected to being identified with. I'm not sure on what basis, if what you write is true, but there you have it.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, God is eternal and uncreated because the 'stuff' of which He is organized (intelligences) is itself eternal and uncreated. Is that right?

Cos, yeah...that's light-years away from anything I would have guessed (I thought Mormons were more like ordinary unitarians). It's got a weird sort of gnostic element to it, doesn't it? If you ever read any gnostic writings (which I don't make a point of doing, but have done because there is a large body of gnostic writings in Coptic, the liturgical language of my church), you can't help but notice that they are really interested in the organization of the universe, and they have all kinds of esoteric creation stories and cosmological treatises. It's fascinating stuff, at least from an anthropological point of view, but I don't know that it really makes for a very coherent or cohesive theological outlook.

Anyway, thanks for that. I eagerly await Peter's response, as I'm sure that a Mormon's perspective in this context would make distinctions that I wouldn't (know to) make that might make this stuff at least sound a little more mainstream.

Here is the problem with your understanding of God. Where did God come from. Since God has all knowledge how did he gain this knowledge? Since you believe it that God lived in some sort of void before he created why? How did God know that if I slammed my finger in the door it was going to hurt? Not just hurt but know what that hurt felt like? If God has never experienced anything physical what gives him the right to judge us?

 

[NYCGuy]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, God is eternal and uncreated because the 'stuff' of which He is organized (intelligences) is itself eternal and uncreated. Is that right?

Somewhat. The stuff of which God is organized, the stuff that we all are organized from, and from which all things were created, is eternal. Matter is eternal, uncreated. As well, there is an "intelligence", like a spark or core, that we all have (and in some way we existed as such prior to our spirit birth from the heavenly parents) that was also uncreated, eternal. So, we are all eternal, including God, because of that inner intelligence, which existed prior to our creation/organization/spirit birth from Heavenly Father and Mother. Check this out for what "intelligences" is referring to:

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Intelligences

 

[fatboys]

Somewhat. The stuff of which God is organized, the stuff that we all are organized from, and from which all things were created, is eternal. Matter is eternal, uncreated. As well, there is an "intelligence", like a spark or core, that we all have (and in some way we existed as such prior to our spirit birth from the heavenly parents) that was also uncreated, eternal. So, we are all eternal, including God, because of that inner intelligence, which existed prior to our creation/organization/spirit birth from Heavenly Father and Mother. Check this out for what "intelligences" is referring to:

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Intelligences

That is really a good explanation

 

[BigDaddy4]

Here is the problem with your understanding of God. Where did God come from. Since God has all knowledge how did he gain this knowledge? Since you believe it that God lived in some sort of void before he created why? How did God know that if I slammed my finger in the door it was going to hurt? Not just hurt but know what that hurt felt like? If God has never experienced anything physical what gives him the right to judge us?

Your misunderstanding of God is not our problem. The God who created everything had to experience that everything to understand what he created? God created humans to experience physical pain (your finger in the door) but had to experience pain himself for him to understand what is was he created??? God didn't know what he was doing when he did it? You don't see how silly that is? You are definitely creating God in your own mind to be something He's not. The Bible advises against that.