The Authority Of His Name

[31gH9N.9.]

I have seen many claims that that is the oldest complete work. I might be wrong, I am fairly certain that a complete or near complete NT exists from 100 years earlier. I will look for it when I get home.

The Muratorian Fragment is pretty old. It has a few missing books.

I can find it... there was one complete Aramaic NT from the 3rd century... and most of the Greek comes from many hundreds of years later. Now... I don't have an Aramaic primacy or anything like that, I have no issue with the Greek.

Amen. If they can find enough evidence that the New Testament was even written in Hebrew then I'll believe it. I think it's possible that some was written in Greek and maybe some in Hebrew or Aramaic. I'm trying to go with what evidence we have but I honestly don't know that it makes a huge difference. Iesous seems to be the best way to spell the Lord's name in Greek and I have no doubts that his name was spelled and pronounced Yeshua or Yahshua or Yehoshua or... ( There is so many theories out there!) in Hebrew or Aramaic. I watched a video recently of a teacher saying that people who call Jesus "Yeshua" arent saved! I also went to a "Hebraic Learning Institute" where the "Rabbi" said that you have to be baptized into "Yeshua". He was kind of unclear after this point saying that God will overlook people's ignorance but once they know they should be rebaptized ( again, I thought he was unclear but it sounded like this is what he was saying). I also talked to one of the members there who believed that Constantine created the name Iesous after Zeus and Christos after Krishna.

 

[Ken Rank]

The Muratorian Fragment is pretty old. It has a few missing books.

This sounds right, maybe it wasn't a complete book. If memory serves they guess this to be between 170 and 300? No matter I guess?

Amen. If they can find enough evidence that the New Testament was even written in Hebrew then I'll believe it. I think it's possible that some was written in Greek and maybe some in Hebrew or Aramaic. I'm trying to go with what evidence we have but I honestly don't know that it makes a huge difference. Iesous seems to be the best way to spell the Lord's name in Greek and I have no doubts that his name was spelled and pronounced Yeshua or Yahshua or Yehoshua or... ( There is so many theories out there!) in Hebrew or Aramaic.

I am an oddity... I tend to think most of the NT was written in Aramaic or Hebrew with some in Greek. But it really doesn't matter, we have mostly Greek manuscripts so that's that. I will say that the Iesous spelling is what appeared in the Septuagint in 300 BC for Yehoshua (Joshua) which is what scholars align Iesous to. Even Strong's when you look up "Jesus" in the NT, is run back to Yeshoshua in the Hebrew.

I watched a video recently of a teacher saying that people who call Jesus "Yeshua" arent saved! I also went to a "Hebraic Learning Institute" where the "Rabbi" said that you have to be baptized into "Yeshua". He was kind of unclear after this point saying that God will overlook people's ignorance but once they know they should be rebaptized ( again, I thought he was unclear but it sounded like this is what he was saying). I also talked to one of the members there who believed that Constantine created the name Iesous after Zeus and Christos after Krishna.

Absolutely ignorant as far as I am concerned. For started, while he didn't hear "Jesus," it follows a very clear transliterational path from the apparent Hebrew or Aramaic through Greek, Latin, and then middle and modern English. But second, to "call on His name" did not necessarily mean to say it... that just goes outside the scope of the language and culture. For example...

In the Hebrew language, the word for name is shem. Shem refers to what we call somebody... but more than that, it deals with the name bearer's character, reputation, and authority. When it comes to a biblical phrase like “walking in the name of God,” it isn't referring to His appellation (what we call Him), it is talking about us walking in a manner that is consistent with His character, that adds to His reputation, and that is within the scope of His will and authority. To profane God's name is literally the opposite. When we walk in a manner that is in contrast to His character, or we take from His reputation, or we walk outside of His will and authority... then we are profaning His shem, we are profaning His name.

So, to call on His name is to call on His authority, His power, His presence even. We can do that with our HEART or else a deaf mute can't be saved? And if it requires some special pronunciation, only those who know the "magic word" get in if they say it. And what does that say about God? He is waiting to do OUR bidding, as long as we know His version of "abracadabra?" LOL... you obviously just found one of my pet peeves.

Be blessed 31gH9N.9. .... man, what were your parents thinking when they named you?

 

[31gH9N.9.]

This sounds right, maybe it wasn't a complete book. If memory serves they guess this to be between 170 and 300? No matter I guess?



I am an oddity... I tend to think most of the NT was written in Aramaic or Hebrew with some in Greek. But it really doesn't matter, we have mostly Greek manuscripts so that's that. I will say that the Iesous spelling is what appeared in the Septuagint in 300 BC for Yehoshua (Joshua) which is what scholars align Iesous to. Even Strong's when you look up "Jesus" in the NT, is run back to Yeshoshua in the Hebrew.



Absolutely ignorant as far as I am concerned. For started, while he didn't hear "Jesus," it follows a very clear transliterational path from the apparent Hebrew or Aramaic through Greek, Latin, and then middle and modern English. But second, to "call on His name" did not necessarily mean to say it... that just goes outside the scope of the language and culture. For example...

In the Hebrew language, the word for name is shem. Shem refers to what we call somebody... but more than that, it deals with the name bearer's character, reputation, and authority. When it comes to a biblical phrase like “walking in the name of God,” it isn't referring to His appellation (what we call Him), it is talking about us walking in a manner that is consistent with His character, that adds to His reputation, and that is within the scope of His will and authority. To profane God's name is literally the opposite. When we walk in a manner that is in contrast to His character, or we take from His reputation, or we walk outside of His will and authority... then we are profaning His shem, we are profaning His name.

So, to call on His name is to call on His authority, His power, His presence even. We can do that with our HEART or else a deaf mute can't be saved? And if it requires some special pronunciation, only those who know the "magic word" get in if they say it. And what does that say about God? He is waiting to do OUR bidding, as long as we know His version of "abracadabra?" LOL... you obviously just found one of my pet peeves.

Be blessed 31gH9N.9. .... man, what were your parents thinking when they named you?

All very interesting, I'll put the thought on my already very long list of doctrines to study.
I used to go to church with someone who knew someone who told him after he prayed without ending it with "In Jesus name" that he was not praying correctly.

....You can call me 31g for short

 

[Blade]

Amen.. that name... We see sheep and goats as He comes and then gathers the nations. He splits them. Some He says I never knew you. Yet they did wonders in His name. Some understand some do not..praise GOD.

I understand whats going on.. but.. next time there are three of you.. two of you keep talking about the 3rd but never speak to them. Peter and John at the gate.. they never had to ask pray to God for HIS WILL.. they knew it. They had it. It was IN THEM. "What I have give I unto you".. in JESUS NAME..or YEHSUA rise." "And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all."

It is HIS NAME..it is FAITH in that name. HAHA.. He is the LIVING WORD.. that WORD its HIM how can you not see this? People can USE that name and NEVER Know Him. Gods WORD can never return to Him void. What ever you ask the Father.. IN MY NAME. IN MY NAME.. on and on and on. PRAISE AND GLORY TO JESUS!

So.. ask this GOD we keep talking about.. forgive me.. can we? Is HE REAL or not? Anyway.. this is how I read and believe. And so far.. He has NEVER failed me. Not boasting.. I simply believe.

 

[parousia70]

The Muratorian Fragment is pretty old. It has a few missing books.

Interestingly, the Muratorian fragment Dates John's penning of the Revelation prior to the completion Paul's last epistle.

 

[Anto9us]

everything pertinent happenned in the late sixties

(but anybody who remembers the sixties really wasn't there)

 

[Paidiske]

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[Vicomte13]

The oldest NT manuscripts we have are Aramaic,

No they're not. The oldest manuscripts are Greek.

 

[Vicomte13]

I just found out that Syriac is a branch of Aramaic, my bad. That makes for an old NT but as far as I can find not the oldest.

You're thinking of the Peshitta, probably. It's old - really old - and it's Aramaic - but it's probably a translation from the Greek.

 

[Anto9us]

Lamsa and the "Peshitta the best" stuff is really brown around the edges

though it is possible on camel/rope they got one thing right, but even that is
contested mightily

 

[Anto9us]

as far as I know - a lot of scholars say there was originally an Aramaic MATTHEW
some extend it to a possible Aramaic MARK
but no -- not whole NT - no way

 

[Anto9us]

study it 31g

go get em

 

[seventysevens]

It is not that I object to those names. It is more that I see those names as confusing to novices to the faith.Likewise, the scriptures tell us that the authority is in the use of the name of Jesus. The use of Yeshua, Yehoshoah were not in wide use when I first believed. Then, people did everything in the name of Jesus. Today we have people scolding folks for using the name of Jesus, even saying Jesus is not His name. The name of Jesus causes much offense. Also,if we are not careful, the name of Jesus will fall into disuse . Do you pray in the name of Yehoshoah. I think Christians are being deceived. I can see challenges to our faith when some atheist or agnostic boldly gets in our faces and say we don't even know what name to call Him. You can't see this happening? I see it. Scripture that is translated into English says that the name of Jesus is above every other name. Either we trust that our scripture tells us the truth, or we believe the " Hath God really said" of the enemy.

I should correct myself and say I don't use Yehoshoah but I do use Yeshua -
It will be an uphill battle to get people to change how they use words - Jesus Is His name - but that is spelled in a transliteration .
In Hebrew there is no J but the translations and transliterations are spelled differently depending on the language being translated or being transliterated into .
Having been around Jewish rabbi who uses the term Yeshua ; I respected them and used the term Yeshua but when I think about what God has said in His word - we have the Holy Trinity . in Rev Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and Omega the First and the Last , God -YHWH told Moses to say the Great I AM has sent me to you ,

Jesus said in John 8 -Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you,
before Abraham was born, I Am.”

Luke 11:1-2
Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.”

2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Scripture tells us that the Lord God knows us when in the womb before we are born , he knows the number of hairs on every person , and every thing He created that has hair - He created the water and knows every atom in every molecule in every drop of water on the planet

If your name is Mary and you have children - some may call you mom , some may say mama - some may call you mother and some may call you Mary -
Would you think that those who call you mama do not know you if they do not call you Mary ?
If your children that call you mother ask you mother for your help would you say - not until you get my name correct - ?
Jesus tells us that we have One Father who is in Heaven and we are to call Him Father and Jesus says that He and the Father are One .

If a person does not know who to speak English but calls out to Yeshua HaMashich do you think Jesus will say - not until you get my name correct ?
Jesus knows every thought we have - He knows if we love Him or not - He knows if a person is sincere or not - Just as you would not disregard your child for calling you mom and not Mary , Jesus will know who loves Him and who He really is , some scripture says pray in the name of the Father ,Son and Holy Spirit , for me I would have to consider the entire context of what a person says before determining if they did or did not use the proper term when calling upon the name of Christ ,

When it comes to atheists or agnostics who don't even believe in Christ Jesus -God , it shows already they don't have any leg to stand on to tell a Christian what is or is not fact and truth - if you encounter that type situation know that it is the accuser of the brethren that is speaking
When you here them tell you that you don't know who Christ Jesus is - it is only to provoke you
Atheists and agnostics will not make it into the Kingdom of God - they will only accuse and deny Jesus and the power of His name .

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

I should correct myself and say I don't use Yehoshoah but I do use Yeshua -
It will be an uphill battle to get people to change how they use words - Jesus Is His name - but that is spelled in a transliteration .
In Hebrew there is no J but the translations and transliterations are spelled differently depending on the language being translated or being transliterated into .
Having been around Jewish rabbi who uses the term Yeshua ; I respected them and used the term Yeshua but when I think about what God has said in His word - we have the Holy Trinity . in Rev Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and Omega the First and the Last , God -YHWH told Moses to say the Great I AM has sent me to you ,

Jesus said in John 8 -Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you,
before Abraham was born, I Am.”

Luke 11:1-2
Now it came to pass, as He was praying in a certain place, when He ceased, that one of His disciples said to Him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.”

2 So He said to them, “When you pray, say:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Scripture tells us that the Lord God knows us when in the womb before we are born , he knows the number of hairs on every person , and every thing He created that has hair - He created the water and knows every atom in every molecule in every drop of water on the planet

If your name is Mary and you have children - some may call you mom , some may say mama - some may call you mother and some may call you Mary -
Would you think that those who call you mama do not know you if they do not call you Mary ?
If your children that call you mother ask you mother for your help would you say - not until you get my name correct - ?
Jesus tells us that we have One Father who is in Heaven and we are to call Him Father and Jesus says that He and the Father are One .

If a person does not know who to speak English but calls out to Yeshua HaMashich do you think Jesus will say - not until you get my name correct ?
Jesus knows every thought we have - He knows if we love Him or not - He knows if a person is sincere or not - Just as you would not disregard your child for calling you mom and not Mary , Jesus will know who loves Him and who He really is , some scripture says pray in the name of the Father ,Son and Holy Spirit , for me I would have to consider the entire context of what a person says before determining if they did or did not use the proper term when calling upon the name of Christ ,

When it comes to atheists or agnostics who don't even believe in Christ Jesus -God , it shows already they don't have any leg to stand on to tell a Christian what is or is not fact and truth - if you encounter that type situation know that it is ha~satan that is speaking
When you here them tell you that you don't know who Christ Jesus is - it is ha~satan trying to provoke you
Atheists and agnostics will not make it into the Kingdom of God - they will only accuse and deny Jesus and the power of His name .

What I have come to understand is people will fight against the name of Jesus.They do not fight against the other names. It is the name of Jesus that causes them to feel offended. Even on this thread you see push back against the name of Jesus.Why can't people follow the simple instruction laid out in the scripture? It is just human nature I guess. What I call my mom has nothing to do with what scripture says to call Lord Jesus. The Bible teaches that the name of Jesus is the only name given whereby men may be saved.
Acts 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Acts4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I introduce people to Jesus Christ of Nazareth. I am not ashamed of the name.

 

[seventysevens]

What I have come to understand is people will fight against the name of Jesus.They do not fight against the other names. It is the name of Jesus that causes them to feel offended. Even on this thread you see push back against the name of Jesus.

Even Christians fight about things that are stated outright in scripture ..many times and many threads have been created to try and convince Christians that Jesus will not have a Kingdom on earth - rejecting that scriptures declares that satan will be imprisoned for 1000 years and released and deceive believers that do not have a glorified eternal body into believing satan can do a better job as king - it's just the way it is and Jesus knows who say what as it is written down in books that will be opened by Jesus at a later time .
My point in a child calling her Mother - mom or mama - was to point out that the Father in heaven knows who His children are -the Father Is Christ in the Godhead
In Jesus time on earth and even now there are Jews who reject Jesus
The thing that many do not give thought to is that by fighting or foolish things Christ keeps that in mind when he gives the saints their role in His kingdom -there is purpose why Jesus used terms like Great in the kingdom and least in the kingdom as there are things that are not yet revealed and will not be until Jesus is on earth establishing His Kingdom Regardless of what some people may believe and teach , people who continually choose to speak ill of the dead and speak ill of someones teaching are not looked upon with the favor they think , just as those who speak ill of former employers in a job interview or post negative things about people on facebook or other media such as internet forums that interview does not go well if that prospective employer is aware of such things that are said - Jesus knows everything that everyone says - you can be proud to say In the Name of Jesus Thee Christ , but don't let it drag you down if some other people don't agree with you - Jesus IS coming Soon -Hold fast to what you have in Jesus !

Acts 4:10 Lexicon: let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead-- by this name this man stands here before you in good health.

Strongs's #2424: Iesous - Greek/Hebrew Definitions - Bible Tools

G2424 Ἰησοῦς - Strong's Greek Lexicon
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

you can be proud to say In the Name of Jesus Thee Christ , but don't let it drag you down if some other people don't agree with you - Jesus IS coming Soon -Hold fast to what you have in Jesus !

There are many who do not agree, even Christians. I will definitely hold to what I have in Christ Jesus.

 

[Ken Rank]

No they're not. The oldest manuscripts are Greek.

No, the majority of the manuscripts we have are Greek and I am fine with the Greek, by the way. It doesn't bother me what language we have things recorded in... in fact, seeing that the NT was written to the nations (predominately) then I think it is almost appropriate that this is the case... not that my opinion matters.

 

[Vicomte13]

No, the majority of the manuscripts we have are Greek and I am fine with the Greek, by the way. It doesn't bother me what language we have things recorded in... in fact, seeing that the NT was written to the nations (predominately) then I think it is almost appropriate that this is the case... not that my opinion matters.

The oldest piece of the New Testament that we possess is the Rylands Papyrus, a fragment from the Gospel of Mark that dates as early as the 2nd Century AD. It is in Greek.

A recent discovery of a papyrus fragment in a mummy mask may date from the 1st Century. It is also in Greek.

The very oldest New Testament manuscripts we have are in Greek. The oldest complete texts of the whole Bible - the Codicies Vaticanus and Sinaiticus - are also in Greek.

 

[Radagast]

I can find it... there was one complete Aramaic NT from the 3rd century... and most of the Greek comes from many hundreds of years later. Now... I don't have an Aramaic primacy or anything like that, I have no issue with the Greek.

Are you comparing date of composition there? Then it's 1st Century for the Greek NT and 2nd or 3rd Century for the Syriac.

Or are you comparing date of oldest extant manuscripts? Then it's 2nd and 3rd Century for the Greek NT and 4th or 5th Century for the Syriac.

Either way, the Syriac NT is much later than the Greek NT, and quite obviously translated from the Greek.

 

[Ken Rank]

The oldest piece of the New Testament that we possess is the Rylands Papyrus, a fragment from the Gospel of Mark that dates as early as the 2nd Century AD. It is in Greek.

A recent discovery of a papyrus fragment in a mummy mask may date from the 1st Century. It is also in Greek.

The very oldest New Testament manuscripts we have are in Greek. The oldest complete texts of the whole Bible - the Codicies Vaticanus and Sinaiticus - are also in Greek.

OK, maybe that's true... doesn't really matter, does it? I told you, I have no issue with Greek... we have what God preserved for us. Be well.