The Authenticity of Paul and his Epistles.

[ananda]

Are you sure? He chose Paul.

I believe in Messiah, not Paul!

 

[Hentenza]

Paul: "That if thou shalt confess(once) with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe(once) in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved." Rom 10:9 ... vs ...

5 For Moses writes that the man (singular) who practices the righteousness (singular) which is [b]based on law shall live [c]by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness (singular)[d]based on faith speaks as follows: “ Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “ The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [e]that if you confess (singular) with your (singular) mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you (singular) will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person (singular) believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation.

Who confesses with his mouth and who will be saved? The answer is the man that talks about in verse 5. The verses are grammatically correct. You can not be talking of A man and use the plural tense.

Messiah: "For Elohim so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever continues to be faithfully obedient in Him should not perish, but should have everlasting life." Jn 3:16

where are you getting the "continues to be faithfully obedient'? That is not a translation but an interpretation. The verb is rendered here in the present active nominative and it is singular. The action is immediate, today, and acts as a predicative nominative which open the option of "to become" in the future.

ἀπόληται- is rendered as aorist middle subjunctive. It is not a first aorist. The middle voice is tied to the verb "perish" and denotes that the action belongs to the subject. The subjunctive mood presents the verbal action as being intentional. Nothing in the grammar supports a translation to "should".

 

[Hentenza]

I believe in Messiah, not Paul!

Luke told the story of Jesus choosing Paul. Do you believe Luke?

 

[Hentenza]

That particular form of the greek word #2334 is used 1 time in the Gospels..John 4:19

Search for 'Genesis 1:1' in the version

Young) Acts 27:10 saying to them, `Men, I perceive/qewrw <2334> (5719 that with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and of the ship, but also of our lives--the voyage is about to be;'

Young) John 4:19 The woman saith to him, `Sir, I perceive/qewrw <2334> (5719) that thou art a prophet;

....

Mmmm. check out strong.

STRONGS NT 2334: &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#941;&#969;

&#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#941;&#969;, &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#8182;; imperfect &#7952;&#952;&#949;&#974;&#961;&#959;&#965;&#957;; (future &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#942;&#963;&#969;, John 7:3 T Tr WH); 1 aorist &#7952;&#952;&#949;&#974;&#961;&#951;&#963;&#945;; (&#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#972;&#962; a spectator, and this from &#952;&#949;&#940;&#959;&#956;&#945;&#953;, which see (cf. Vanicek, p. 407; Liddell and Scott, under the word; Allen in the American Journ. of Philol. i., p. 131f)); (from Aeschylus and Herodotus down); the Sept. for &#1512;&#1464;&#1488;&#1464;&#1492; and Chaldean &#1495;&#1464;&#1494;&#1464;&#1492;; 1. to he a spectator, look at, behold, German schauen (the &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#959;&#953; were men who attended the games or the sacrifices as public deputies; cf. Grimm on 2 Macc. 4:19); absolutely: Matthew 27:55; Mark 15:40; Luke 23:35; followed by indirect discourse, Mark 12:41; Mark 15:47; used especially of persons and things looked upon as in some respect noteworthy: &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945;, John 6:40; John 16:10, 16ff,19; Acts 3:16; Acts 25:24; Revelation 11:11f; &#8001; &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#8182;&#957; &#964;&#972;&#957; &#965;&#7985;&#972;&#957; &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#8150; &#964;&#972;&#957; &#960;&#945;&#964;&#941;&#961;&#945;, the majesty of the Father resplendent in the Son, John 12:45; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945; with participle (Buttmann, 301 (258): Mark 5:15); Luke 10:18; John 6:19; (); ; (1 John 3:17); &#964;&#943;, Luke 14:29; Luke 21:6; Luke 23:48; Acts 4:13; &#964;&#940; &#963;&#951;&#956;&#949;&#8150;&#945;, John 2:23; John 6:2 L Tr WH; Acts 8:13, (&#952;&#945;&#965;&#956;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#940; &#964;&#941;&#961;&#945;&#964;&#945;, Wis. 19:8); &#964;&#940; &#7956;&#961;&#947;&#945; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#935;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#8166;, John 7:3; &#964;&#943; with participle, John 20:6; Acts 7:56; Acts 10:11; followed by &#8005;&#964;&#953;, Acts 19:26; to view attentively, take a view of, survey: &#964;&#943;, Matthew 28:1; to view mentally, consider: followed by orat. obliq., Hebrews 7:4.
2. to see; i. e.
a. to perceive with the eyes: &#960;&#957;&#949;&#8166;&#956;&#945;, Luke 24:37; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945; with a participle, Luke 24:39; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945;, &#8005;&#964;&#953;, John 9:8; &#964;&#972; &#960;&#961;&#972;&#963;&#969;&#960;&#959;&#957; &#964;&#943;&#957;&#959;&#962; (after the Hebrew; see &#960;&#961;&#972;&#963;&#969;&#960;&#959;&#957;, 1 a.), equivalent to to enjoy the presence of one, have contact with him, Acts 20:38; &#959;&#8016;&#954;&#941;&#964;&#953; &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#8150;&#957; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945;, used of one from whose sight a person has been withdrawn, John 14:19; &#959;&#8016; &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#8150; &#8001; &#954;&#972;&#963;&#956;&#959;&#962; &#964;&#972; &#960;&#957;&#949;&#8166;&#956;&#945;, i. e. so to speak, has no eyes with which it can see the Spirit; he cannot render himself visible to it, cannot give it his presence and power, John 14:17.
b. to discern, descry: &#964;&#943;, Mark 5:38; &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945;, Mark 3:11; Acts 9:7.
c. to ascertain, find out, by seeing: &#964;&#953;&#957;&#945; with a predicate accusative, Acts 17:22; &#964;&#943; with participle, Acts 17:16; Acts 28:6; &#8005;&#964;&#953;, Mark 16:4; John 4:19; John 12:19; Acts 19:26; Acts 27:10; followed by indirect discourse, Acts 21:20; Hebraistically (see &#949;&#7984;&#948;&#8182;, I. 5) equivalent to to get knowledge of: John 6:62 (&#964;&#972;&#957; &#965;&#7985;&#972;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#7936;&#957;&#952;&#961;&#974;&#960;&#959;&#965; &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#946;&#945;&#943;&#957;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945; the Son of Man by death ascending; cf. Lücke, Meyer (yet cf. Weiss in the 6te Aufl.), Baumg.-Crusius, in the place cited); &#964;&#972;&#957; &#952;&#940;&#957;&#945;&#964;&#959;&#957; i. e. to die, John 8:51; and on the other hand, &#964;&#942;&#957; &#948;&#972;&#958;&#945;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#935;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#8166;, to be a partaker of the glory, i. e. the blessed condition in heaven, which Christ enjoys, John 17:24, cf. John 17:22. (Compare: &#7936;&#957;&#945;&#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#941;&#969;, &#960;&#945;&#961;&#945;&#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#941;&#969;.) [SYNONYMS: &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#8150;&#957;, &#952;&#941;&#945;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;, &#8001;&#961;&#8118;&#957;, &#963;&#954;&#959;&#960;&#949;&#8150;&#957;: &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#8150;&#957; is used primarily not of an indifferent spectator, but of one who looks at a thing with interest and for a purpose; &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#8150;&#957; would be used of a general officially reviewing or inspecting an army, &#952;&#941;&#945;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; of a lay spectator looking at the parade. &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#8150;&#957; as denoting the careful observation of details can even be contrasted with &#8001;&#961;&#8118;&#957; in so far as the latter denotes only perception in the general; so used &#952;&#949;&#969;&#961;&#949;&#8150;&#957; quite coincides with &#963;&#954;&#959;&#960;&#949;&#8150;&#957; Schmidt 1:11; see also Green, 'Critical Note' on Matthew 7:3. Cf. under the words, &#8001;&#961;&#940;&#969;, &#963;&#954;&#959;&#960;&#941;&#969;

Strong's Greek: 2334. θεωρέω (theóreó) -- to look at, gaze

 

[Frogster]

Luke told the story of Jesus choosing Paul. Do you believe Luke?

I await his reply, i asked over and over if Luke lied, or vastly mistaken in all his Paul support...

 

[Frogster]

I believe in Messiah, not Paul!

Peter spoke of the gospel of grace, same as Paul, and the prohets prophecied of it, as Jesus spoke through them, said in 1 Peter 1, then we got Peter in Acts 15, saying and agreeing with Paul, no disticintion, Jew and Greek saved by grace..

wow..get rid of Peter and Luke?

where is your "witness" that they lied, or were crazy people?

 

[Hentenza]

I await his reply, i asked over and over if Luke lied, or vastly mistaken in all his Paul support...

Lets not forget that Peter also supported and recognized Paul.

 

[Frogster]

Lets not forget that Peter also supported and recognized Paul.

Amen bro..

I guess Peter does not fit his "witness" criteria thing he kept talkling about on the other thread..

 

[Hentenza]

Amen bro..

I guess Peter does not fit his "witness" criteria thing he kept talkling about on the other thread..

That's the fallacy of the non-Pauline crowd. If they remove Paul they also have to remove the Gospel of Luke, Acts, and the two epistles of Peter. Also, if they remove Peter then there goes the rest of the gospels. Their bible is terribly light.

Oh, and lets not forget that there is a strong possibility that Hebrews was written by Paul.

 

[Frogster]

That's the fallacy of the non-Pauline crowd. If they remove Paul they also have to remove the Gospel of Luke, Acts, and the two epistles of Peter. Also, if they remove Peter then there goes the rest of the gospels. Their bible is terribly light.

Oh, and lets not forget that there is a strong possibility that Hebrews was written by Paul.

I totally agree with ya Hentenza.

Plus all the millions over the years who came to Chrsit, reading Paul, including the reformers were deceived.

My what a tangled web we weave...

 

[Standing Up]

Two things.

Someone mentioned earlier that Luke/Acts is rejected as apostolic, so which is it? Inspired or not?

Paul dosen't say any will die, just hurt and damaged. The word for "safe" is diasozo "in the Active Voice, "to bring safely through a danger" (dia, "through," intensive, sozo, "to save"), " blueletterbible.org

It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are stating that Luke & Acts are either "Scripture" or "not Scripture," and if they are not Scripture, that the whole book(s) must be thrown out. I present a third position - I contend that most of Acts is most likely a historical work by a fallible, historical man (Luke), who wrote the account to the best of his ability based on second-hand hearsay information. As history, I believe many parts of Acts are accurate, many parts are questionable (because there are no additional witnesses as required by YHVH & Yehoshua ), and many parts are untrue. Are school books considered 100% worthless because parts of them are likely conjectures?

&#950;&#951;&#956;&#8055;&#945;&#962; - damage to a &#968;&#965;&#967;&#8182;&#957;- soul from a physical action (violent voyage), can only mean death.

Luke told the story of Jesus choosing Paul. Do you believe Luke?

Apparently he doesn't. Not sure the criteria he uses by which to decide.

 

[Hentenza]

&#8001;&#956;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#947;&#8053;&#963;&#8131;&#962;, as found in Rom 10:9, is in the Greek aorist tense. The aorist tense shows a one-time action. &#8001;&#956;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#947;&#8053;&#963;&#8131;&#962; is thus most accurately translated "one-time confession". Belief, in that same verse, is also in the aorist tense. Paul claims salvation comes through a one-time confession & one-time belief.

The aorist tense used for &#8001;&#956;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#947;&#8053;&#963;&#8131;&#962; in Romans 10:9 is rendered in the subjunctive mood not in the indicative mood and is not a participle, consequently, the action does not indicate time.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Hentenza Lets not forget that Peter also supported and recognized Paul.

Originally Posted by Frogster Amen bro..

I guess Peter does not fit his "witness" criteria thing he kept talkling about on the other thread..

That's the fallacy of the non-Pauline crowd. If they remove Paul they also have to remove the Gospel of Luke, Acts, and the two epistles of Peter. Also, if they remove Peter then there goes the rest of the gospels. Their bible is terribly light.

Oh, and lets not forget that there is a strong possibility that Hebrews was written by Paul.

Perhaps the anti-Paul folks also view Aninias as being delusional

YoungLT) Acts 15:10 And there was a certain disciple in Damascus, by name Ananias, and the Lord said unto him in a vision, `Ananias;' and he said, `Behold me, Lord;'
11 and the Lord [saith] unto him, `Having risen, go on unto the street that is called Straight, and seek in the house of Judas, [one] by name Saul of Tarsus, for, lo, he doth pray,12 and he saw in a vision a man, by name Ananias, coming in, and putting a hand on him, that he may see again.'
13 And Ananias answered, `Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many evils he did to Thy saints in Jerusalem,
14 and here he hath authority from the chief priests, to bind all those calling on Thy name.'
15 And the Lord said unto him, `Be going on, because a choice vessel to Me is this one, to bear My name before nations and kings--the sons also of Israel;
16 for I will shew him how many things it behoveth him for My name to suffer.'

....

 

[Hentenza]

Apparently he doesn't. Not sure the criteria he uses by which to decide.

Is called begging the question.

 

[ananda]

Paul did not "claim" such a thing at all. Paul "perceived" not "foresee". ... He was not making a prophetic statement but merely stating what the captain of the vessel should know.

I was emphasizing where Paul stated "&#956;&#8051;&#955;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#7956;&#963;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;".

If Paul was not prophesying (speaking for Elohim) here, then how do you know he was prophesying (speaking for Elohim) in any of his epistles?

 

[Hentenza]

I was emphasizing where Paul stated "&#956;&#8051;&#955;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#7956;&#963;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;".

If Paul was not prophesying (speaking for Elohim) here, then how do you know he was prophesying (speaking for Elohim) in any of his epistles?

As I have already stated, he saw, he did not foresee. I also explained the reason why he made the statement. You are chasing a rabbit trail.

ETA: BTW, did you choose to jump from verse 10 to verse 44 and ignore the verses in between?

21 [l]When they had gone a long time without food, then Paul stood up in their midst and said, &#8220; Men, you ought to have [m]followed my advice and not to have set sail from Crete and [n]incurred this damage and loss. 22 Yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. 23 For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve stood before me, 24 saying, &#8216;Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar; and behold, God has granted you all those who are sailing with you.&#8217; 25 Therefore, keep up your courage, men, for I believe God that [o]it will turn out exactly as I have been told. 26 But we must run aground on a certain island.&#8221;

 

[ananda]

The verses are grammatically correct. You can not be talking of A man and use the plural tense.

Sorry, you'll need to re?-study the action of the different Greek tenses. They do not work the same as in English. Also, "plural" is not a tense.

where are you getting the "continues to be faithfully obedient'? That is not a translation but an interpretation. The verb is rendered here in the present active nominative and it is singular. The action is immediate, today, and acts as a predicative nominative which open the option of "to become" in the future.

The present tense in Greek is not the same as the present tense in English!

&#7936;&#960;&#972;&#955;&#951;&#964;&#945;&#953;- is rendered as aorist middle subjunctive. It is not a first aorist. The middle voice is tied to the verb "perish" and denotes that the action belongs to the subject. The subjunctive mood presents the verbal action as being intentional. Nothing in the grammar supports a translation to "should".

"the subjunctive as indicating something that is not &#8220;is&#8221; but is &#8220;uncertain but probable&#8221;

 

[Frogster]

I was emphasizing where Paul stated "&#956;&#8051;&#955;&#955;&#949;&#953;&#957; &#7956;&#963;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953;".

If Paul was not prophesying (speaking for Elohim) here, then how do you know he was prophesying (speaking for Elohim) in any of his epistles?

it is just called a common sense approach to reading the Bible.

by the way, Listen to Moses, he says what Paul says, and there is nothing in the Gen 15 account, as we read it in a common sense mode, to connect works into the text.


Gen 15:” 6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

 

[ananda]

Luke told the story of Jesus choosing Paul. Do you believe Luke?

#1. Did Luke's 3 accounts of Paul's Damascus-road experience show Messiah anointed Paul as an "apostle"? #2. Are the 3 accounts in agreement with each other according to their details?

 

[Frogster]

Perhaps the anti-Paul folks also view Aninias as being delusional

YoungLT) Acts 15:10 And there was a certain disciple in Damascus, by name Ananias, and the Lord said unto him in a vision, `Ananias;' and he said, `Behold me, Lord;'
11 and the Lord [saith] unto him, `Having risen, go on unto the street that is called Straight, and seek in the house of Judas, [one] by name Saul of Tarsus, for, lo, he doth pray,12 and he saw in a vision a man, by name Ananias, coming in, and putting a hand on him, that he may see again.'
13 And Ananias answered, `Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many evils he did to Thy saints in Jerusalem,
14 and here he hath authority from the chief priests, to bind all those calling on Thy name.'
15 And the Lord said unto him, `Be going on, because a choice vessel to Me is this one, to bear My name before nations and kings--the sons also of Israel;
16 for I will shew him how many things it behoveth him for My name to suffer.'

....

hehehehhe...so was delusional barnabas, and Aquila, a native of Pontus, recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla