The Authenticity of Paul and his Epistles.

[Radagast]

The Greek present tense has little to do with the English present tense!

The Greek tense has more of a sense of continuation than English, perhaps, but both tenses refer to things that are happening now. That's why they're called "present."

The English word "believes" on its own does hint of an ongoing or continuous meaning, but generally speaking, and in most people's eyes, I would say it has the more common meaning of a one-time event.

Not really, because usually if you believe something you keep on believing it (it's a state, not an event).

The fact that ἵνα is a conjunction has little to do with the subjunctive mood of ἔχῃ

I refer you to the section on "purpose clauses" in a standard NT text. ἵνα plus the subjunctive forms a "purpose clause."

Any interlinear or ultra-literal translation will show this is true

Interlinears always tend to distort complex grammatical constructs.

It is hard to go against 400+ years of tradition!

Because tradition is right in this case.

Liddels include comply, obey

Liddell & Scott have "trust, put faith in, rely on" for the NT passages. They have "comply" as a rare meaning in non-NT passages. In my version, they don't have "obey" at all.

 

[ananda]

The Greek tense has more of a sense of continuation than English, perhaps, but both tenses refer to things that are happening now. That's why they're called "present."

... when combined with the indicative mood!

Not really, because usually if you believe something you keep on believing it (it's a state, not an event).

It should be clarified for readers. One-time belief is significantly different from the need for an ongoing belief/trust/faithfulness/obedience; for reason of the great importance of this issue, one's eternal salvation, this should be made painfully clear to the average reader, wouldn't you agree?

I refer you to the section on "purpose clauses" in a standard NT text. ἵνα plus the subjunctive forms a "purpose clause."

ἵνα before a subjunctive indicates a condition which is uncertain, but is likely to happen.

Because tradition is right in this case.

I would disagree

Liddell & Scott have "trust, put faith in, rely on" for the NT passages. They have "comply" as a rare meaning in non-NT passages. In my version, they don't have "obey" at all.

My error ... "comply" is indeed in there though.

 

[Radagast]

ἵνα before a subjunctive indicates a condition which is uncertain, but is likely to happen.

No, it indicates a purpose clause. See here, for example.

But this debate had become circular, and in my opinion, pointless.

 

[Frogster]

... when combined with the indicative mood!

It should be clarified for readers. One-time belief is significantly different from the need for an ongoing belief/trust/faithfulness/obedience; for reason of the great importance of this issue, one's eternal salvation, this should be made painfully clear to the average reader, wouldn't you agree?

ἵνα before a subjunctive indicates a condition which is uncertain, but is likely to happen.

I would disagree

My error ... "comply" is indeed in there though.

Did Luke lie, or make up all that info about Paul?

 

[ananda]

No, it indicates a purpose clause. See here, for example. But this debate had become circular, and in my opinion, pointless.

Second Thoughts about Subjunctives in Purpose Clauses : "... we should rethink the standard presentation of the subjunctive, specifically in ἵνα clauses. Much better to generally define the subjunctive as indicating something that is not “is” but is “uncertain but probable” (Wallace, 461)." - Bill Mounce

 

[Frogster]

Second Thoughts about Subjunctives in Purpose Clauses : "... we should rethink the standard presentation of the subjunctive, specifically in ἵνα clauses. Much better to generally define the subjunctive as indicating something that is not “is” but is “uncertain but probable” (Wallace, 461)." - Bill Mounce

Do u see how arguing about the Greek text, never proves much, just like how biblical commentators prove for centuries, as they argue Greek usage? Nothing happens!

BUT, bottom line you are forced to reckon, that either Luke Lied, or he made it all up, whereby questioning his integrity, which would leave you to need several witnesses, as you don't, and it shows that your "witness thing" that u use against paul, which really was about legal proceedings in the OT anyway, does not stand here, in your application.

So either Luke lied, or made it all up, and if you agree to that, you would be bearing a false witness, according to your own judgment standard, that you have used against Paul here on the forum, over and over again.

So either u bear a false witness, or u must prove Luke lied, or was vastly mistaken about how he witnesses Paul. Sorry, but that is the measure u use against Paul. You, keep asking who, "witnessed Paul?" said over and over on other threads by you. So now I ask who witnesses your presumption, that we must presume you mean, that either Luke Lied, or was mistaken?

Show your witness.

 

[Radagast]

Second Thoughts about Subjunctives in Purpose Clauses : "... we should rethink the standard presentation of the subjunctive, specifically in ἵνα clauses. Much better to generally define the subjunctive as indicating something that is not “is” but is “uncertain but probable” (Wallace, 461)." - Bill Mounce

Mounce, in that blog post, is in agreement with what I'm saying: subjunctives in ἵνα clauses should not be translated "might." His point is that novices get an incorrect idea that the subjunctive always indicates uncertainty, whereas in fact the subjunctive has many uses. Mounce isn't disagreeing with the standard texts, he's talking about 1st-year-level introductory teaching, which presents the subjunctive in a simplified way. By only quoting a snippet, you managed to suggest that Mounce was saying the opposite of what he actually says.

1 John 1:9 brings the last two uses together, a conditional sentence with ἵνα in the apodosis in essence acting as the apodosis. “If (ἐὰ&#957 we confess (ὁμολογῶμε&#957 our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive (ἵνα ἀφ&#8135 us our sins and to cleanse (καθαρίσ&#8131 us from all unrighteousness.

A first year student might translate this as “might forgive” and “might cleanse” in the purpose clause, which of course is near heresy. The only conditional element is whether we will confess or not, but we can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God will in fact forgive those who confess. No issue of “may” or “might” forgive.

 

[ananda]

Mounce, in that blog post, is in agreement with what I'm saying: subjunctives in ἵνα clauses should not be translated "might." His point is that novices get an incorrect idea that the subjunctive always indicates uncertainty, whereas in fact the subjunctive has many uses. Mounce isn't disagreeing with the standard texts, he's talking about 1st-year-level introductory teaching, which presents the subjunctive in a simplified way. By only quoting a snippet, you managed to suggest that Mounce was saying the opposite of what he actually says.

I skimmed over that article, and that's true ... interestingly, he doesn't give a reason why his thoughts have changed, or why texts should change, regarding ἵνα & subjunctives, except that it may conflict with existing theology.

Take 1Pet 3:1: "Ὁμοίως αἱ γυναῖκες ὑποτασσόμεναι τοῖς ἰδίοις ἀνδράσιν ἵνα καὶ εἴ τινες ἀπειθοῦσιν τῷ λόγῳ διὰ τῆς τῶν γυναικῶν ἀναστροφῆς ἄνευ λόγου κερδηθήσωνται" - are husbands always certainly won by the conduct of an obedient wife? I would say no. They may be won, but it is not certain.

I'm thinking that ἵνα with a subjunctive may both imply "is" and "uncertain but probable". So, in terms of Jn 3:16, it would be:

1. YHWH's will and desire to certainly give eternal life to those who are faithfully obedient, but at the same time,
2. it is the man or woman's responsibility to receive that eternal life, based on his or her faithful obedience; so, in that sense, they may likely have eternal life.

 

[Canterbury Trail]

There are a number of reasons for questioning whether Paul wrote all of the books attributed to him, they can be found in any good commentary.

 

[Optimax]

Jesus said about Paul:

Acts 9:15-16

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. KJV

That is the highest credentials one can get!

Paul said He received what he preached by direct revelation from Jesus.

Gal 1:11-12

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. KJV

That is solid!

Now, will I chose to believe Paul who was chosen by Jesus and taught personally by Him.

Or some person that may not even know Jesus?

PAUL!

 

[ananda]

Jesus said about Paul: Acts 9:15-16 ... Paul said He received what he preached by direct revelation from Jesus. Gal 1:11-12 ... Now, will I chose to believe Paul who was chosen by Jesus and taught personally by Him. Or some person that may not even know Jesus? PAUL!

If I write a letter stating that I met Messiah and He made me an apostle, and have my friend write a couple accounts of me meeting Messiah (and, the accounts my friend wrote wouldn't even match up) - will you accept my anointing as an 'apostle'?

 

[Frogster]

If I write a letter stating that I met Messiah and He made me an apostle, and have my friend write a couple accounts of me meeting Messiah (and, the accounts my friend wrote wouldn't even match up) - will you accept my anointing as an 'apostle'?

The problem you have, is that Luke witnessed Paul big time, our beloved brother Paul Acts 15, as James said, and Peter, who risked his life for Jesus, and that would be the gospel.

So again, u r being asked a simple question.

Did Luke lie, or make all that up in Acts?


Acts 19:11 And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,

 

[Frogster]

If I write a letter stating that I met Messiah and He made me an apostle, and have my friend write a couple accounts of me meeting Messiah (and, the accounts my friend wrote wouldn't even match up) - will you accept my anointing as an 'apostle'?

Why did a Jewish PROPHET, Silas, right out of the Jerusalem church, start churches with Paul, the same Silas the penned 1 Peter? Was he deceived also?

Your argument is really one based on just trying to discredit many honorable "witnessed" people.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by netzarim If I write a letter stating that I met Messiah and He made me an apostle, and have my friend write a couple accounts of me meeting Messiah (and, the accounts my friend wrote wouldn't even match up) - will you accept my anointing as an 'apostle'?

Why did a Jewish PROPHET, Silas, right out of the Jerusalem church, start churches with Paul, the same Silas the penned 1 Peter? Was he deceived also?

Your argument is really one based on just trying to discredit many honorable "witnessed" people.

Silas is underrated

Young) Acts 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole assembly, chosen men out of themselves to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren--

....

 

[Frogster]

Silas is underrated

Young) Acts 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole assembly, chosen men out of themselves to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren--

....

interesting point...

 

[Frogster]

If I write a letter stating that I met Messiah and He made me an apostle, and have my friend write a couple accounts of me meeting Messiah (and, the accounts my friend wrote wouldn't even match up) - will you accept my anointing as an 'apostle'?

Luke wrote, what do we do with Acts? He is saying that his first writing is legit, why not the second, as he continues on?

1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach,

 

[Hentenza]

And I wholly believe and trust in Messiah!

Are you sure? He chose Paul.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I think little Benji's mess was 5 times more

Not I but the grace that was "with me"

 

[Hentenza]

It was not the hurt and damage to the ship that I was focusing on. Paul claimed that the voyage will end their lives: "ζημίας .. ψυχῶν ..." (27:10); the use of these words clearly indicated that. They all escaped safe to land; obviously they did not lose their live as Paul prophesied.

Paul did not "claim" such a thing at all. Paul "perceived" not "foresee".

θεωρέω- (theōre&#333, be a spectator; notice. Cognate words: ἀναθεωρέω, θεάομαι, θεατρίζω, θέατρον, θεωρία, παραθεωρέω

Logos Bible Software. (2011; 2011). The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament. Logos Bible Software.

He "perceived" (noticed) the danger of the voyage simply because between mid September to early November was a well known dangerous time to sail the Mediterranean sea. He was not making a prophetic statement but merely stating what the captain of the vessel should know. The captain ignored him and sailed anyway. Paul gave them additional advise in verse 31 and they listened to him so they understood that Paul had been right to begin with.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by netzarim It was not the hurt and damage to the ship that I was focusing on. Paul claimed that the voyage will end their lives: "ζημίας .. ψυχῶν ..." (27:10); the use of these words clearly indicated that. They all escaped safe to land; obviously they did not lose their live as Paul prophesied.

Paul did not "claim" such a thing at all. Paul "perceived" not "foresee".

θεωρέω- (theōre&#333, be a spectator; notice. Cognate words: ἀναθεωρέω, θεάομαι, θεατρίζω, θέατρον, θεωρία, παραθεωρέω

Logos Bible Software. (2011; 2011). The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament. Logos Bible Software.

He "perceived" (noticed) the danger of the voyage simply because between mid September to early November was a well known dangerous time to sail the Mediterranean sea. He was not making a prophetic statement but merely stating what the captain of the vessel should know. The captain ignored him and sailed anyway. Paul gave them additional advise in verse 31 and they listened to him so they understood that Paul had been right to begin with.

That particular form of the greek word #2334 is used 1 time in the Gospels..John 4:19

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Young) Acts 27:10 saying to them, `Men, I perceive/qewrw <2334> (5719 that with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and of the ship, but also of our lives--the voyage is about to be;'

Young) John 4:19 The woman saith to him, `Sir, I perceive/qewrw <2334> (5719) that thou art a prophet;

....