The Authenticity of Paul and his Epistles.

[ananda]

It has been my experience in both the 'real world' and online that whenever I have encountered those who either wanted to severely curtail the epistles of Paul or ban them from the Holy Bible altogether, they have either had a personal agenda that needed to have Paul's epistles set aside in order for it to be seen as legitimate, or they have been members of one of the radical denominations or sects whose harangues are condemning everyone to hell except for those who blindly and without question follow the dictates of their particular heirarchy.

It has been my experience that there are many who would obfuscate the problems with Paul in order to keep his epistles in "Bibles" today, since they have a personal agenda that needed Paul's theology and his banner of "grace" in order to decriminalize and indulge in restrictions and sins found in the Law.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I've wrote on this issue under many threads, so I'll just list one here:

A failed/false prophecy is attributed to Paul; compare: "And [Paul] said ... Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and ship, but also of our lives." Acts 27:10. And the result? ".. so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land." Acts 27:44

Be careful! If one claims that Paul is not speaking under inspiration in Acts 27:10, then there is nothing to stop me from claiming that Paul is not speaking under inspiration in the rest of his epistles.

What? I'd have you to be careful and stop bearing false witness. Have you ever been in a Tempest wind on a small ship for days on end? Did you even read what happened to the ship and how the crew did suffer?

Acts 27:14-21

King James Version (KJV)

14 But not long after there arose against it a tempestuous wind, called Euroclydon.
15 And when the ship was caught, and could not bear up into the wind, we let her drive.
16 And running under a certain island which is called Clauda, we had much work to come by the boat:
17 Which when they had taken up, they used helps, undergirding the ship; and, fearing lest they should fall into the quicksands, strake sail, and so were driven.
18 And we being exceedingly tossed with a tempest, the next day they lightened the ship;
19 And the third day we cast out with our own hands the tackling of the ship.
20 And when neither sun nor stars in many days appeared, and no small tempest lay on us, all hope that we should be saved was then taken away.
21 But after long abstinence Paul stood forth in the midst of them, and said, Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss.

Some people will go to great lengths to strain out a knat and swallow a camel.

 

[ananda]

What? I'd have you to be careful and stop bearing false witness. Have you ever been in a Tempest wind on a small ship for days on end? Did you even read what happened to the ship and how the crew did suffer? Some people will go to great lengths to strain out a knat and swallow a camel.

It was not the hurt and damage to the ship that I was focusing on. Paul claimed that the voyage will end their lives: "ζημίας .. ψυχῶν ..." (27:10); the use of these words clearly indicated that. They all escaped safe to land; obviously they did not lose their live as Paul prophesied.

 

[Standing Up]

I've wrote on this issue under many threads, so I'll just list one here:

A failed/false prophecy is attributed to Paul; compare: "And [Paul] said ... Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and ship, but also of our lives." Acts 27:10. And the result? ".. so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land." Acts 27:44

Be careful! If one claims that Paul is not speaking under inspiration in Acts 27:10, then there is nothing to stop me from claiming that Paul is not speaking under inspiration in the rest of his epistles.

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of YHWH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which YHWH hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deu 18:22

Two things.

Someone mentioned earlier that Luke/Acts is rejected as apostolic, so which is it? Inspired or not?

Paul dosen't say any will die, just hurt and damaged. The word for "safe" is diasozo "in the Active Voice, "to bring safely through a danger" (dia, "through," intensive, sozo, "to save"), " blueletterbible.org

 

[ananda]

Two things. Someone mentioned earlier that Luke/Acts is rejected as apostolic, so which is it? Inspired or not?

It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are stating that Luke & Acts are either "Scripture" or "not Scripture," and if they are not Scripture, that the whole book(s) must be thrown out. I present a third position - I contend that most of Acts is most likely a historical work by a fallible, historical man (Luke), who wrote the account to the best of his ability based on second-hand hearsay information. As history, I believe many parts of Acts are accurate, many parts are questionable (because there are no additional witnesses as required by YHVH & Yehoshua ), and many parts are untrue. Are school books considered 100% worthless because parts of them are likely conjectures?

Paul dosen't say any will die, just hurt and damaged. The word for "safe" is diasozo "in the Active Voice, "to bring safely through a danger" (dia, "through," intensive, sozo, "to save"), " blueletterbible.org

ζημίας - damage to a ψυχῶν- soul from a physical action (violent voyage), can only mean death.

 

[pathfinder777]

I have been seeing a growing theme on this site about a good number of people doubting the apostleship and authority of Paul and his writings. What is the basis of this?

Personally, I see people who personally do not like his theology so they discredit him.

So come get it out of your system. Tell me your reasoning and use Scripture to back up your claims.

This is a very open ended question. Being more specific might be helpful. One example that some 20th century Protestant Scholars have questioned is Paul's use of the term Church in the singular vs plural where the plural is normally found in his older writings. some argue "the church" might have been retrojected back to an earlier time ie 50 and 60s vs 80 and 90s by another author in the same "Pauline School" who might have written some of the later writings attributed to Paul . In any case doubting the authorship is not absolutely the same as doubting the authority. No orthodox Christian or group denies Pauls apostleship that im aware of but they do distinguish between the Twelve Apostles par excellance who walked and talked with Jesus during his ministry and Paul.

In Christ

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

It was not the hurt and damage to the ship that I was focusing on. Paul claimed that the voyage will end their lives: "ζημίας .. ψυχῶν ..." (27:10); the use of these words clearly indicated that. They all escaped safe to land; obviously they did not lose their live as Paul prophesied.

I know what you are focusing on, and that is to discredit the teachings of Paul which are also the teachings of Christ. Paul did not say that they would die, that is what you have misrepresented in the text.

You claim to be a Non Paulin Messianic but that is what I would call an oxymoron because Paul not only preached Messiah but had the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him.

You either believe the whole package or none at all.

 

[ananda]

the teachings of Paul which are also the teachings of Christ.

Paul taught the wide, broad, and easy way of salvation by grace through a one-time confession of faith in the name of Christ.

Messiah taught the narrow and strait way of salvation by ongoing trust, ongoing repentance, and ongoing obedience.

Two different messages.

Mt 7:13-14

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Paul taught the wide, broad, and easy way of salvation by grace through a one-time confession of faith in the name of Christ.

Messiah taught the narrow and strait way of salvation by ongoing trust, ongoing repentance, and ongoing obedience.

Two different messages.

Mt 7:13-14

Confession of ones own mouth doesn't earn one eternal life, but the message of salvation by God's Grace through faith has always been the same.

Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Those who seek to justify themselves by the works of the law shall also be judged by the law.

If I were you I would take the free gift of God's Grace through the One who has already fulfilled the law of righteousness for us.

 

[Frogster]

I've wrote on this issue under many threads, so I'll just list one here:

A failed/false prophecy is attributed to Paul; compare: "And [Paul] said ... Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and ship, but also of our lives." Acts 27:10. And the result? ".. so it came to pass, that they escaped all safe to land." Acts 27:44

Be careful! If one claims that Paul is not speaking under inspiration in Acts 27:10, then there is nothing to stop me from claiming that Paul is not speaking under inspiration in the rest of his epistles.

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of YHWH, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which YHWH hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deu 18:22

What a weak case against Paul, he said perceive, it does not say prophecy, and besides, then apply your standard to Moses also, thought thought that after murdering an Egyptian, they would recognise his ministry, boy, was he wrong by 40 years, read Acts 7.




Paul was also greeted by an angel of God in 27, yet you omit that. Why?


Acts 27:23 For this very night there stood before me an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I worship,

 

[Frogster]

It was not the hurt and damage to the ship that I was focusing on. Paul claimed that the voyage will end their lives: "ζημίας .. ψυχῶν ..." (27:10); the use of these words clearly indicated that. They all escaped safe to land; obviously they did not lose their live as Paul prophesied.

It does not say prophecy, you are stretching the text.

 

[Frogster]

It has been my experience that there are many who would obfuscate the problems with Paul in order to keep his epistles in "Bibles" today, since they have a personal agenda that needed Paul's theology and his banner of "grace" in order to decriminalize and indulge in restrictions and sins found in the Law.

likewise, those on the other side, just don't like what the Holy Spirit said through Paul, and they have to chuck out Luke and Peter, to make their theology work.

 

[Frogster]

Paul taught the wide, broad, and easy way of salvation by grace through a one-time confession of faith in the name of Christ.

Messiah taught the narrow and strait way of salvation by ongoing trust, ongoing repentance, and ongoing obedience.

Two different messages.

Mt 7:13-14

Peter agreed with Paul, in Acts 15, he said God shows no distinction, Jew and Greek saved in the same manner, by grace, cleansed by faith.

Peter said they were saved by grace in 1 Peter 1, even the prophets looked for the grace too.

Again, you have to chuck out soooo much, for your obscure doctrine to stick, that's why countless millions have been coming to Christ, reading paul, 20 centuries later.

 

[ananda]

Confession of ones own mouth doesn't earn one eternal life, but the message of salvation by God's Grace through faith has always been the same.

Paul: "That if thou shalt confess(once) with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe(once) in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved." Rom 10:9 ... vs ...

Messiah: "For Elohim so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever continues to be faithfully obedient in Him should not perish, but should have everlasting life." Jn 3:16

 

[Frogster]

It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are stating that Luke & Acts are either "Scripture" or "not Scripture," and if they are not Scripture, that the whole book(s) must be thrown out. I present a third position - I contend that most of Acts is most likely a historical work by a fallible, historical man (Luke), who wrote the account to the best of his ability based on second-hand hearsay information. As history, I believe many parts of Acts are accurate, many parts are questionable (because there are no additional witnesses as required by YHVH & Yehoshua ), and many parts are untrue. Are school books considered 100% worthless because parts of them are likely conjectures?

ζημίας - damage to a ψυχῶν- soul from a physical action (violent voyage), can only mean death.

It is not second hand, Luke was with Paul alot, read the pronouns, the we's..etc..

Even in Acts 25, the description and detail of the pomp, were obviously a first hand account. Look at the wordage, and you tell me if that is not a firsthand descripton.


Acts 25:23 So, on the next day when Agrippa came together with Bernice amid great pomp, and entered the auditorium accompanied by the commanders and the prominent men of the city, at the command of Festus, Paul was brought in.

 

[Frogster]

Paul: "That if thou shalt confess(once) with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe(once) in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved." Rom 10:9 ... vs ...

Messiah: "For Elohim so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever continues to be faithfully obedient in Him should not perish, but should have everlasting life." Jn 3:16

Peter brought the same Gospel to the Gentiles. What work did Cornelius do in Acts 10 for him, and his household to be saved?

 

[Frogster]

Paul: "That if thou shalt confess(once) with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe(once) in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved." Rom 10:9 ... vs ...

Messiah: "For Elohim so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever continues to be faithfully obedient in Him should not perish, but should have everlasting life." Jn 3:16

Stop acting like Paul said not to listen to Jesus already..wow..

Acts 26:19 “So, King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision,

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Paul: "That if thou shalt confess(once) with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe(once) in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved." Rom 10:9 ... vs ...

Messiah: "For Elohim so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever continues to be faithfully obedient in Him should not perish, but should have everlasting life." Jn 3:16

I suppose if you add your own words to the text you can make them say whatever you like huh?

But the Truth is mouth confession once is not the message of salvation, but neither are works.

Matthew 7:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[ananda]

I suppose if you add your own words to the text you can make them say whatever you like huh? But the Truth is mouth confession once is not the message of salvation, but neither are works.

I did not add anything to my translation. I would not, as I am well aware of the condemnation given to those who add to YHWH's Words.

ὁμολογήσῃς, as found in Rom 10:9, is in the Greek aorist tense. The aorist tense shows a one-time action. ὁμολογήσῃς is thus most accurately translated "one-time confession". Belief, in that same verse, is also in the aorist tense. Paul claims salvation comes through a one-time confession & one-time belief.

Also, Messiah did not come to bring a message of faith or works. He came to bring a message of ongoing trust, ongoing repentance, and ongoing obedience ...

Matthew 7:22-23 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If I may clarify this translation ... Messiah actually stated "depart from me, you who (continually)work anti-Law!"

The word "work iniquity" in the KJV is translated from ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν. ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν is in the Greek present tense. The Greek present tense actually implies an action which starts, and continues going on. And, of course, ἀνομία means anti- or against- the Law.

And thus, I say "Amein!" to this verse.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

I did not add anything to my translation. I would not, as I am well aware of the condemnation given to those who add to YHWH's Words.

ὁμολογήσῃς, as found in Rom 10:9, is in the Greek aorist tense. The aorist tense shows a one-time action. ὁμολογήσῃς is thus most accurately translated "one-time confession". Belief, in that same verse, is also in the aorist tense. Paul claims salvation comes through a one-time confession & one-time belief.

Also, Messiah did not come to bring a message of faith or works. He came to bring a message of ongoing trust, ongoing repentance, and ongoing obedience ...

If I may clarify this translation ... Messiah actually stated "depart from me, you who (continually)work anti-Law!"

The word "work iniquity" in the KJV is translated from ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν. ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν is in the Greek present tense. The Greek present tense actually implies an action which starts, and continues going on. And, of course, ἀνομία means anti- or against- the Law.

And thus, I say "Amein!" to this verse.

Oh, and you can re-translate the Bible in your own words too. (how special)