The Authenticity of Paul and his Epistles.

[Standing Up]

#1. Did Luke's 3 accounts of Paul's Damascus-road experience show Messiah anointed Paul as an "apostle"? #2. Are the 3 accounts in agreement with each other according to their details?

Good point. Why unsimilar?

 

[Frogster]

#1. Did Luke's 3 accounts of Paul's Damascus-road experience show Messiah anointed Paul as an "apostle"? #2. Are the 3 accounts in agreement with each other according to their details?

he did not describe what color hair paul had either...

but what does an apostle do? they preach, and start churches.

9:15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel.

 

[ananda]

The aorist tense used for ὁμολογήσῃς in Romans 10:9 is rendered in the subjunctive mood not in the indicative mood and is not a participle, consequently, the action does not indicate time.

You are correct in that the aorist in any mood other than the indicative does not indicate the time the action is completed. However, this is not my point! The aorist subjunctive does, however, indicate that the action is a one-time action, whether in the past, present, or future!

ὁμολογήσῃς indicates a one-time action.

 

[Hentenza]

#1. Did Luke's 3 accounts of Paul's Damascus-road experience show Messiah anointed Paul as an "apostle"?

Yes.

Acts 9
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen [g]instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

#2. Are the 3 accounts in agreement with each other according to their details?

How do they differ?

 

[Hentenza]

Sorry, you'll need to re?-study the action of the different Greek tenses. They do not work the same as in English. Also, "plural" is not a tense.

Consistency throughout is the same.

The present tense in Greek is not the same as the present tense in English!

What? Where did I say that they were?

"the subjunctive as indicating something that is not “is” but is “uncertain but probable”

Where is the optative mood? You seem to be stuck on just one side of the subjunctive usage. More study might be in order.

 

[Hentenza]

You are correct in that the aorist in any mood other than the indicative does not indicate the time the action is completed. However, this is not my point! The aorist subjunctive does, however, indicate that the action is a one-time action, whether in the past, present, or future!

ὁμολογήσῃς indicates a one-time action.

The action is active brother which is why it has no indicated time. Secondly, one can only be "born of the Spirit" once as John tells us in his gospel. Are you proposing that we are born of the Spirit repeatedly?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Hentenza The aorist tense used for ὁμολογήσῃς in Romans 10:9 is rendered in the subjunctive mood not in the indicative mood and is not a participle, consequently, the action does not indicate time.

You are correct in that the aorist in any mood other than the indicative does not indicate the time the action is completed. However, this is not my point!
The aorist subjunctive does, however, indicate that the action is a one-time action, whether in the past, present, or future!

ὁμολογήσῃς indicates a one-time action.

You may want to take a look at this great interlinear and how it renders that word.
That particular form of the greek word #3670 is used only in this one verse out of the 26 times it is mentioned. Interesting

http://www.christianforums.com/t7364825-23/#post53859978
Book of Romans verse by verse Chatpter 10

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

10:9 That ifever thou should be avowing/confessing/omologhshV <3670> (5661) in the mouth of thee Lord Jesus and should be believing/having-faith in the heart of thee that the God, Him rouses out of dead-ones, thou shall be being saved.

Greek NT - Textus Rec.) Romans 10:9 oti ean omologhshV en tw stomati sou kurion ihsoun kai pisteushV en th kardia sou oti o qeoV auton hgeiren ek nekrwn swqhsh

vs Aor Active 2 Singular

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G3670 matches the Greek &#8001;&#956;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#947;&#8051;&#969; (homologe&#333;), which occurs 26 times in 21 verses in the Greek concordance

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[ananda]

Good point. Why unsimilar?

The three different accounts, with the differing details bolded:

• And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. (Act 9:7)
• And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.(Acts 22:9)
• At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth ... (Acts 26:13,14)

 

[Fireinfolding]

The three different accounts, with the differing details bolded:

• And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. (Act 9:7)
• And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but theyheard not the voice of him that spake to me.(Acts 22:9)
• At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth ... (Acts 26:13,14)

Not so far fetched

because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not

Ok just kidding, just pulling your chain, I gotta look at this better.

 

[ananda]

Originally Posted by netzarim

#1. Did Luke's 3 accounts of Paul's Damascus-road experience show Messiah anointed Paul as an "apostle"?
​

Yes.Acts 9:15 But the Lord said to him, &#8220;Go, for he is a chosen [g]instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Luke states in Acts 9:15 that Messiah allegedly stated that Paul was "&#963;&#954;&#949;&#8166;&#959;&#962; &#7952;&#954;&#955;&#959;&#947;&#8134;&#962;" - a chosen instrument. It does not say that Paul was an "&#7936;&#960;&#8057;&#963;&#964;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#962;" - apostolos, apostle.

Secondly, a "chosen instrument" can either be a good or bad instrument - or both, as I allege Paul to be.

Finally, Luke's account in Acts 9:15 is only a single second-hand witness. This does not fulfill the Torah's or Messiah's requirements for multiple first-hand witnesses, e.g. "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." Jn 5:31

 

[Frogster]

The three different accounts, with the differing details bolded:

• And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. (Act 9:7)
• And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.(Acts 22:9)
• At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. And when we were all fallen to the earth ... (Acts 26:13,14)

how weak and obscrure this post is, text that spanned a long time, in the different trial appearences.....


Yet u ignored how Moses "supposed they would recgonize him", when he killed the egyptian, but Moses was wrong, yet you want to nit-pik about the perceive issue on the boat in acts with Paul.. Moses supposed, Paul perceived.

Moses was wrong...


Lookie here, first person Holy Spirit, lets get serious..


Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, &#8220;Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.&#8221; 3 Then after fasting and praying they laid their hands on them and sent them off.

It had to be correct, because the very respected Barnabas did go with Paul, history validates the text. The prophets were there too. The Holy Spirit sent Paul.

 

[Radagast]

The aorist tense used for &#8001;&#956;&#959;&#955;&#959;&#947;&#8053;&#963;&#8131;&#962; in Romans 10:9 is rendered in the subjunctive mood not in the indicative mood and is not a participle, consequently, the action does not indicate time.

Yeah, in conditional statements like that, the aorist subjunctive is often used in the "if" part, without any particular implication.

Furthermore, the "aorist = one-time" idea is a widely repeated myth. See Carson's book Exegetical Fallacies.

 

[ananda]

Consistency throughout is the same.

Can a man can repeatedly hammer on a nail? Based on what you said, this would be impossible.

The present tense in Greek is not the same as the present tense in English!

What? Where did I say that they were?

You stated: "where are you getting the "continues to be faithfully obedient'? That is not a translation but an interpretation. The verb is rendered here in the present active nominative and it is singular. The action is immediate, today, and acts as a predicative nominative which open the option of "to become" in the future. "

The verb &#960;&#953;&#963;&#964;&#949;&#8059;&#969;&#957; from Jn 3:16 is in the Greek present active, in the participle mood. If it was in the indicative mood, it would indicate that the action is going on immediate and today. However, it is not; it is in the participle mood: this indicates that it has no reference to the time of action (present, past, or future). It does, however, indicate that the action is continuous!

Where is the optative mood? You seem to be stuck on just one side of the subjunctive usage. More study might be in order.

The words of John 3:16 does not have a word in the optative. The possibility of the subjunctive is similar to that of the optative.

 

[Optimax]

If I write a letter stating that I met Messiah and He made me an apostle, and have my friend write a couple accounts of me meeting Messiah (and, the accounts my friend wrote wouldn't even match up) - will you accept my anointing as an 'apostle'?

When your writing are included in scripture I will consider it.

Until then, no!

 

[Athanasias]

This is a interesting debate. I tend to go with Scripture Scholars Fr. Mitch Pacwa and Dr. David Twellman on this and subscribe to the idea that the Pauline epistles have St. Paul as their author.

 

[ananda]

When your writing are included in scripture I will consider it. Until then, no!

And ... who gets to decide this? What criteria will they use?

 

[Frogster]

And ... who gets to decide this? What criteria will they use?

who decides Luke lied, or made it all up? Where are your "witnesses" to prove he did either?

u kept talking about your "witness" theory against Paul, trying to prove him wrong, so where are your witnesses that luke lied, or made it up, as he strongly supported and witnessed paul?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is a interesting debate. I tend to go with Scripture Scholars Fr. Mitch Pacwa and Dr. David Twellman on this and subscribe to the idea that the Pauline epistles have St. Paul as their author.

Thanks for that info

2 thess 3:16Now may the Lord of peace Himself give you peace always in every way. The Lord [be] with you all.
17 The salutation of Paul with my own hand, which is a sign in every epistle; so I write.
18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen.

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