the apostacy

[ByGrace]

FB: Talmage was the President of what LDS Utah. He was never the president of the Church. Also, Talmage was a scientist who was amoung his peers considered a genius. Was called to be an apostle, and was probably the first apologist who had looked at and publicly debated critics before he was an apostle. Some of his works are the best documented books out there. One of this books called Jesus the Christ is a joy to read. Timeless. There are now many other apologists who have written much and by reading early church fathers, I think you would be terribly disappointed as to what they taught compared to what you believe.

Talmage may be, in your oppinion and others of your faith, a genius, but that does not mean he is not wrong. The book you reference espouses mormon doctrine and teaching on the character and person of Jesus Christ and is blatantly mormon in its doing so. That in and of itself makes it incorrect in its theology.

 

[intrepid]

The CoJCoLDS does change as God sees the need to guide his flock differently. God of course does not change, but we do.

This seems like textbook circular thinking. God doesn't change, but because we do, He then changes things to guide us because we've changed? Makes my poor little Gentile head explode.

 

[fatboys]

You have much to learn of your church. I was a member and now (sigh of relief to this guy) am not. Polygamy, in the words of the illustrious briggy young, is such a requirement that only those abiding by it will be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. If you then, according to your "modern day Moses prophet" are not living it, you are heading to hell.

Jesus did not do away with anything when He came. He showed people the higher nature of the laws and what they were supposed to mean to them. He showed them what the sacrifices and rituals were a type of, and said that not one jot nor tittle of His words will pass away. Oh, I wonder if that is unless it is not "translated correctly?"

FB: Grace why say briggy? It is Brigham. And he said that those who are called to live it. It was never a requirement for everyone to live. Those who were called and lived the principle were to live it. It was like any other calling from God. Although I come from polygmist ancestors, my wife who had pioneer parents did not live it. Not everyone lived it. Only 5% ever did. What is required is that we be sealed to our spouse for our marriage to continue after this life.

Grace, ofcourse Christ brought a higher law. He restored this law that was lived by Adam, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. This law was lost to the House of Israel that lived in Egypt and later became slaves to Egypt for hundreds of years. After such a time and being subject to Egyptian beliefs, they lost the higher law. Being slaves they had generation which knew nothing but being told what to do and when to do it. When Moses came on the scene and was raised in the ways of Egyptian beliefs, he still was taught some of his heritage. When he murdered the Egyptian and was driven out, he came upon his future Father in laws place. He was a Midianite who although from the linage of Abraham, was not of the house of Israel. They still had the higher law, and Moses was given the higher law, and priesthood from him. When Moses went back and finally got Israel out of Egypt they could not live by that higher law. God gave the the Lower law. The basic Ten commandents which were a temporal law, and therefore would not bring anyone to perfection. The consequences of disobedience was also temperal or mortal punishment, of which many times brought death upon them by being stoned. This was a great motivator for obedience. Yet a man could live all these commandments perfectly and still not be perfect just as the rich man who came to Jesus and wanted to know what he had to do to have eternal life. Jesus was trying to teach him to give up all he had and follow him. The higher law. Christ taught much of the higher law which he lived and made him perfect. The higher law will bring perfection to us. The lower law still exists, for it was a perpartory law to Christ restoring the higher law.

 

[fatboys]

Talmage may be, in your oppinion and others of your faith, a genius, but that does not mean he is not wrong. The book you reference espouses mormon doctrine and teaching on the character and person of Jesus Christ and is blatantly mormon in its doing so. That in and of itself makes it incorrect in its theology.

FB: Grace that was not just opinion of his peers in the LDS faith. That was his peers in the scientific world. Many of them could not understand why he would give up a career in his work to be an apostle. Just as many who are apostles today.

Have you ever read Jesus the Christ?

 

[intrepid]

The chapter and verse I couldn't remember back on page 1 of this thread is: Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins. (Mormon 8:32)

Is it not true that one must be fully tithed to enter an LDS temple? And isn't temple work and temple marriage essential to obtaining the Celestial Kingdom?

Then doesn't it follow that "for your money" a Mormon may achieve exaltation?

 

[fatboys]

This seems like textbook circular thinking. God doesn't change, but because we do, He then changes things to guide us because we've changed? Makes my poor little Gentile head explode.

Doctrines don't change, laws don't change. Laws can be given and taken away. As God has done throughout biblical history. God would not expect a baby to live a perfect life without being properly prepared. As you know civilizations have been raised in righteousness, only to fall as wickedness crept in. It has been a roller coaster ride from the time of Adam till now. God gives us what we need so as not to overwhelm us. He gives us hope that we can be obedient. That was what the temporal law was all about. God works with us to help us in the best way so that we can live according to his laws. As we come closer to Christ, we become more obedient and this gives rise to perfection. Until Christ came we had no hope of living a perfect life through the lower law. Christ gave us hope of being able to be obedient to all of Gods laws. Your head does not need to explode. It can get a little tired perhaps, but not explode.

 

[ByGrace]

FB: Grace that was not just opinion of his peers in the LDS faith. That was his peers in the scientific world. Many of them could not understand why he would give up a career in his work to be an apostle. Just as many who are apostles today.

Have you ever read Jesus the Christ?

Well, that is easy to explain. They make more money now.

 

[fatboys]

Well, that is easy to explain. They make more money now.

FB: I posted a whole lot of other points, why pick out a topic that you seem to be unaware of? Some of the General authorities are given an allowance to live on. Almost all of them could have been making much much more than they are given as an allowance. President Hinckley gave up a head position in a company. Russell Nelson was a well renowned Heart surgeon, Dallin Oaks was a Judge, Etc. They are not given much to live on by the positions they could have held had they been in the business market. Why do you say such things as this? Didn't you realize that many of the Quorum of the Seventy still have their jobs? And some are only called for five years? Do you think that it is money that they give up position of leadership in the business world to serve God 24/7?

Answer the question I asked. Have you read Jesus the Christ?

 

[fatboys]

The chapter and verse I couldn't remember back on page 1 of this thread is: Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins. (Mormon 8:32)

Is it not true that one must be fully tithed to enter an LDS temple? And isn't temple work and temple marriage essential to obtaining the Celestial Kingdom?

Then doesn't it follow that "for your money" a Mormon may achieve exaltation?

FB: Intrepid, this is not speaking about the LDS church, but of other religions who claim authority of God to forgive sins by paying money. Do you have a Book of Mormon? Read the verses before and after this verse.

 

[intrepid]

FB: Intrepid, this is not speaking about the LDS church, but of other religions who claim authority of God to forgive sins by paying money. Do you have a Book of Mormon? Read the verses before and after this verse.

Two. The 1981 edition and the 1830 (Joseph Smith Begins His Work). And I did. Mormon was not speaking of the LDS church (which didn't exist at that time), but this verse seems to portend that particular aspect of LDS doctrine.

 

[fatboys]

Two. The 1981 edition and the 1830 (Joseph Smith Begins His Work). And I did. Mormon was not speaking of the LDS church (which didn't exist at that time), but this verse seems to portend that particular aspect of LDS doctrine.

FB: As an LDS member, I am telling you that you are wrong. This is speaking about the churches which would exist in the last days. Read for yourself.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.
29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;
30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.
31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.
32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.
33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

(Book of Mormon | Mormon 8:28 - 33)

 

[ByGrace]

FB: I posted a whole lot of other points, why pick out a topic that you seem to be unaware of? Some of the General authorities are given an allowance to live on. Almost all of them could have been making much much more than they are given as an allowance. President Hinckley gave up a head position in a company. Russell Nelson was a well renowned Heart surgeon, Dallin Oaks was a Judge, Etc. They are not given much to live on by the positions they could have held had they been in the business market. Why do you say such things as this? Didn't you realize that many of the Quorum of the Seventy still have their jobs? And some are only called for five years? Do you think that it is money that they give up position of leadership in the business world to serve God 24/7?

Answer the question I asked. Have you read Jesus the Christ?

That is not true. They are very well paid and are also given housing owned by the church that is very elite. They use church autos, travel on the church, eat on the church, etc. etc. etc.

As for the book. Enough of it.

 

[fatboys]

That is not true. They are very well paid and are also given housing owned by the church that is very elite. They use church autos, travel on the church, eat on the church, etc. etc. etc.

FB: They are not paid what they are worth, or could have been worth. They are paid an allowance. I am not sure why you would think otherwise. Do you have some information that is documented that you could share with us? See Grace you have got to stop making statements which have no basis for it. If you would like I could find this information out for you. Would you like to know for sure what their allowance is

[/quote]As for the book. Enough of it.[/QUOTE]

Grace, your the one who said what it was. If you have not read it how can you know what is in it to even make a statement about it?

 

[MormonFriend]

Hence the mormon church and the way each different ward seems to have a different understanding of every doctrine they teach.

I gave you good reasoning in the other forum topic why your words are not worth taking serious. Another good Christian it seems agreed with my point. I await to hear your response so that I might adjust my opinion if you can justify your attitude.

I have attended hundreds of wards on the west coast, the east coast, Utah, South America, Spain, and France. Your comment here is consistent with your other points.

 

[TOmNossor]

This seems like textbook circular thinking. God doesn't change, but because we do, He then changes things to guide us because we've changed? Makes my poor little Gentile head explode.

The thing is that all mainstream Protestant churches and the Catholic Church are radically different from the EarlyChurch. The Catholic Church has a logical reason for this difference. The CoJCoLDS has a logical reason for its development. Churches based on Martin Luther’s new Biblical interpretation do not have a reason for these changes.



Charity, TOm

 

[MormonFriend]

Well, isnt that convenient. If it doesnt line up with you then you just "dont recognize it."

No sir, if they choose to break away from us, then simply, they are no longer a part of us. What is to recognize? They left the faith. If they are my neighbor and have a flat tire, I will help them change it.

To what are you referring as "convienient"? And why do you keep taking the focus off of the issue I posted? Within the Christian Body of your faith, the divisions are exponentially growing. I listen often to Christian radio programs where certain movements are shunned and condemned as unbiblical, yet by the code they are still within the Body and "saved" Christians. Why is there not any authority at the head of your Body to which all members will answer to and acknowledge as such? I know, but you don't want to hear it, even though it is the topic of this thread.

 

[MormonFriend]

The chapter and verse I couldn't remember back on page 1 of this thread is: Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins. (Mormon 8:32)

Is it not true that one must be fully tithed to enter an LDS temple? And isn't temple work and temple marriage essential to obtaining the Celestial Kingdom?

Then doesn't it follow that "for your money" a Mormon may achieve exaltation?

There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law in tithing. Your perspective is highly limited without understanding the spirit of tithing. I can introduce you to a couple of nice young men .......

 

[MormonFriend]

This seems like textbook circular thinking. God doesn't change, but because we do, He then changes things to guide us because we've changed? Makes my poor little Gentile head explode.

May I offer you some aspirin?
One must keep in mind that there are variables at work in this sojourn we call life. Of course there are going to be changes in procedures as life changes, to meet the new needs.
Since day one we have been at war with Satan. Satan is not bound and roams free. He applies strategies in his efforts to deceive and blind people, and has become quite adept at it. He wants to make people miserable like himself.
I have never heard of a war where the enemy would announce their intentions and follow those intentions. When Satan sounds his different attacks at his choosing, we must be flexible to meet them.
Even in a simple game of chess you see moves and counter moves to fool and defeat the enemy.
I obviously do not have God's full plan at my fingertips. But if I am His Pawn or His Queen, I am not going to question where He places me. If I see Him move a Bishop and then retreat the next move, do I say "He changed His mind, He must be a false God!"? No, the final outcome is what I have faith in, and if He isn't destroying the enemy, I know that He is drawing the enemy out so it can be destroyed.
This may be a weak effort to explain what you are asking. It makes sense to me. There are many other variables that you cannot understand at this time, which is consistent with the writings of the Bible. (Both the variables, and the reasons why they cannot be understood until the proper time.)

 

[MormonFriend]

And what do you want to wager that Talmage, a former President of the LDS Utah, will prove by selectively quoted and out-of-context quoted "sources" that all Christian churches, with one exception, are apostate? And do you want to guess which church he "proves" is the only scriptural church?

If one is really serious about research, don't rely on any middle man, go to the historical sources yourself. Click this link and read the actual history of the church as written by the early church fathers. For example Polycarp and Ignatius, disciples of John, Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, and Barnabus believed to be the disciple of Paul, and other early church leaders from the time of the apostles until past the Nicaean council in 325 AD.

Have you read the book? I do not believe that you will find his work anything but objective. You suggest that he writes with the purpose defending his beliefs. I suggest that he believes as he does because of what he has discovered.

I will gladly check your link. You must be aware that we are all created different. I do not process information the same or as quickly as most. We are not all cut out to be scholars. When I read Talmage, I am often reading my dictionary. (But I am one H--- of a good service technician with a capacity to reason and troubleshoot, and a lot of my God given advantages are worthwhile in this discussion.) The bottom line always is searching for understanding by the confirmation of the Holy Ghost. On this method, all of God's children are on equal ground.

 

[ByGrace]

No sir, if they choose to break away from us, then simply, they are no longer a part of us. What is to recognize? They left the faith. If they are my neighbor and have a flat tire, I will help them change it.

To what are you referring as "convienient"? And why do you keep taking the focus off of the issue I posted? Within the Christian Body of your faith, the divisions are exponentially growing. I listen often to Christian radio programs where certain movements are shunned and condemned as unbiblical, yet by the code they are still within the Body and "saved" Christians. Why is there not any authority at the head of your Body to which all members will answer to and acknowledge as such? I know, but you don't want to hear it, even though it is the topic of this thread.

They are not the ones that broke away. They held to their guns regardless if they were wrong. They were taught by who the were told was the prophet that re-established Gods perfect church and then were told to go against those teachings. That was very brave and in my oppinion very faithful. I am sad that they think they need to follow such things but they showed their true colors in doing so. The s.l church on the other hand dismissed doctrine if it was not convenient to practice it. I dont see in any Biblical or book of mormon passage where this is what is right.