the apostacy

[MormonFriend]

They are not the ones that broke away. They held to their guns regardless if they were wrong. They were taught by who the were told was the prophet that re-established Gods perfect church and then were told to go against those teachings. That was very brave and in my oppinion very faithful. I am sad that they think they need to follow such things but they showed their true colors in doing so. The s.l church on the other hand dismissed doctrine if it was not convenient to practice it. I dont see in any Biblical or book of mormon passage where this is what is right.

Before I take precious time with your posts, you owe me a response to this:

(BG) Wow! Nice avoidance. You just might end up being prophet some day. Congratulations, here is a temple gold card.

(MF)
Even though you condemn my beliefs by your standard of understanding, you know that my beliefs are sacred to me. What is in your heart that makes you scoff at me and send unnecessary and obviously offensive darts at what I hold true and dear? It is not Love. If there is no Love within you, there is no Spirit of God. If there is no Spirit of God, there is no understanding. ...... So why should I take you serious?

You see, brother Grace, discussions of the things of God are futile if the Spirit is not with both involved.

 

[intrepid]

There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law in tithing. Your perspective is highly limited without understanding the spirit of tithing. I can introduce you to a couple of nice young men .......

I understand both the spirit and the letter and I thith cheerfully. But if I can't I'm not prevented from going to my church's holiest places at any time. No one questions me regarding it. No one issues, or denies, a pass to go there.

I have no problem with tithing as requisite to entering the temple (after all, you paid for it), but when that is linked to the Celestial Kingdom it starts to sound a lot like Moroni 8:32.

BTW, the Elders never come to my neighborhood, but I get the JWs on a regular basis.

 

[TOmNossor]

They are not the ones that broke away. They held to their guns regardless if they were wrong. They were taught by who the were told was the prophet that re-established Gods perfect church and then were told to go against those teachings. That was very brave and in my oppinion very faithful. I am sad that they think they need to follow such things but they showed their true colors in doing so. The s.l church on the other hand dismissed doctrine if it was not convenient to practice it. I dont see in any Biblical or book of mormon passage where this is what is right.

Again, you demonstrate that you are not familiar with the history of the religion you embrace.

To be Catholic is to recognize that over time radical changes occurred. Newman attributes this to “natural revelation.” Protestants seem to ignore this fact and reject the authority of the Catholic Church while embracing much of the radical changes.

To be a LDS is to embrace an authority with access to super natural revelation. The small fraction of fundamentalist like the small fraction of ultra-trad Catholics do not realize the history of Christianity is slow but radical change.

One who embraces the Restoration and rejects the continued revelations delivered by the prophets, seems to me to hold tight to pet doctrines at the expense of logic and reason.



Charity, TOm

 

[ByGrace]

Before I take precious time with your posts, you owe me a response to this:
You see, brother Grace, discussions of the things of God are futile if the Spirit is not with both involved.

I "owe" you nothing and your accusations of my "not having the spirit" are against the rules and quite inflammatory. Might want to re-think your position. You say that discussions of the things of God are futile while not even adhering to them or belonging to a group that does. No, it is not I who is lacking.

 

[ByGrace]

Again, you demonstrate that you are not familiar with the history of the religion you embrace.

To be Catholic is to recognize that over time radical changes occurred. Newman attributes this to “natural revelation.” Protestants seem to ignore this fact and reject the authority of the Catholic Church while embracing much of the radical changes.

To be a LDS is to embrace an authority with access to super natural revelation. The small fraction of fundamentalist like the small fraction of ultra-trad Catholics do not realize the history of Christianity is slow but radical change.

One who embraces the Restoration and rejects the continued revelations delivered by the prophets, seems to me to hold tight to pet doctrines at the expense of logic and reason.



Charity, TOm

I do not embrace any religion. I embrace the teachings that were given and preserved within the pages of the Holy Bible. I am not a Baptist or a Protestant or any other 'name' I am simply a Christian who was saved by the power of the Atonement that was finished on the cross through faith and faith alone on the One who suffered for me. Religion has nothing to offer.

Question- Why does the title page to the book of momon say that "Jesus is the Christ, the ETERNAL GOD"??????

 

[fatboys]

I do not embrace any religion. I embrace the teachings that were given and preserved within the pages of the Holy Bible. I am not a Baptist or a Protestant or any other 'name' I am simply a Christian who was saved by the power of the Atonement that was finished on the cross through faith and faith alone on the One who suffered for me. Religion has nothing to offer.

Question- Why does the title page to the book of momon say that "Jesus is the Christ, the ETERNAL GOD"??????

FB: So Grace are only the ones who believe as you going to be saved? Or are all Christians going to be saved?

 

[TOmNossor]

I do not embrace any religion. I embrace the teachings that were given and preserved within the pages of the Holy Bible. I am not a Baptist or a Protestant or any other 'name' I am simply a Christian who was saved by the power of the Atonement that was finished on the cross through faith and faith alone on the One who suffered for me. Religion has nothing to offer.

Question- Why does the title page to the book of momon say that "Jesus is the Christ, the ETERNAL GOD"??????

ByGrace,



You must realize that you believe in extra Biblical words and ideas. These ideas are defendable from the Bible, but they are most definitely not the only beliefs available. Also, some of these beliefs are not even the clearest beliefs from the Bible. I can respect the idea that you get your beliefs from the Bible alone, but again it is just one interpretation and I imagine it is one at the end of a long chain of radical changes within Christianity.



Jesus is the Eternal God. Jesus is God and has always been God. The social Trinitarian structure I embrace does not deny this fact.



Charity, TOm

 

[ByGrace]

FB: So Grace are only the ones who believe as you going to be saved? Or are all Christians going to be saved?

That question is redundant. In order to be a Christian you must be born again and have recieved salvation. I hope that Heaven will be absolutely crowded.

 

[ByGrace]

ByGrace,



You must realize that you believe in extra Biblical words and ideas. These ideas are defendable from the Bible, but they are most definitely not the only beliefs available. Also, some of these beliefs are not even the clearest beliefs from the Bible. I can respect the idea that you get your beliefs from the Bible alone, but again it is just one interpretation and I imagine it is one at the end of a long chain of radical changes within Christianity.



Jesus is the Eternal God. Jesus is God and has always been God. The social Trinitarian structure I embrace does not deny this fact.



Charity, TOm

If, as you and the book of mormon say, Jesus is THE eternal God, then this does away with the idea that they are three different persons and that Jesus was a created being. I dont do this to fight with anyone but to point out these facts that many may accept Jesus as He has revealed Himself. It is all about Jesus.

 

[TOmNossor]

ByGrace:

If, as you and the book of mormon say, Jesus is THE eternal God, then this does away with the idea that they are three different persons and that Jesus was a created being. I dont do this to fight with anyone but to point out these facts that many may accept Jesus as He has revealed Himself. It is all about Jesus.



TOm:

With the exception of the statement “does away with the idea that they are three different persons” you do quite well. Jesus is not a “created being” in LDS theology. He is eternal. And I do accept Jesus as he has revealed himself. The BOM and the Bible complement eachother.



Charity, TOm

 

[fatboys]

That question is redundant. In order to be a Christian you must be born again and have recieved salvation. I hope that Heaven will be absolutely crowded.

I guess I am confused. You said that you do not follow any religion. You are just a Christian. Are those who follow a religion less of a christian than you, or are they more of a christian? Please explain.

 

[MormonFriend]

I understand both the spirit and the letter and I thith cheerfully. But if I can't I'm not prevented from going to my church's holiest places at any time. No one questions me regarding it. No one issues, or denies, a pass to go there.

I have no problem with tithing as requisite to entering the temple (after all, you paid for it), but when that is linked to the Celestial Kingdom it starts to sound a lot like Moroni 8:32.

BTW, the Elders never come to my neighborhood, but I get the JWs on a regular basis.

I think you meant Mormon 8:32

32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

(Book of Mormon | Mormon8:32)

We apparently understand the spirit of the law differently.
You said:

....I thith cheerfully. But if I can't ....

The spirit of tithing to us is we will always give back to the Lord 10% of what He has given us. It is not a question of can or cannot, it is if we will or will not. That simply comes down to free will or free agency. There are critical principles involved that define our faith. Faith proceeds the miracle is one of them.

8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. (Malachi3:8 - 10)

The issue of paying a full tithe to enter the Temple is not solitary. There are several issues of qualification that most call being worthy. The better term is being prepared. The teachings and ordinances in the Temple can only be understood, much like the Bible, only when our hearts are disassociated with the temporal things of the world. Paying money does not qualify us to enter the Temple. But having a perfect willingness to make the sacrifices that the Lord has established is a measuring stick of our faith. Knowing that God will compensate for our needs is the best insurance policy whereas we cannot afford to miss paying our tithing.

I hope you and others will realize that money is not what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is about. We must use it as a resource to do many things, ...good things.

 

[ByGrace]

I guess I am confused. You said that you do not follow any religion. You are just a Christian. Are those who follow a religion less of a christian than you, or are they more of a christian? Please explain.

You want me to apply what I said to all others but I was referring to myself. Also, the quote you did has nothing to do with that.

 

[JVAC]

You said: The spirit of tithing to us is we will always give back to the Lord 10% of what He has given us. It is not a question of can or cannot, it is if we will or will not. That simply comes down to free will or free agency. There are critical principles involved that define our faith. Faith proceeds the miracle is one of them.

So, is God only worth 10% of the money you make?

 

[MormonFriend]

So, is God only worth 10% of the money you make?

What purpose does a question like that serve?

 

[fatboys]

You want me to apply what I said to all others but I was referring to myself. Also, the quote you did has nothing to do with that.

I would like you to define who is being saved. You said that you do not hold to any christian religion. So those who do hold to a particular religion, and feel that they can follow Christ better through this religion, does that make them more saved than those who do not hold to any religion but believe in Christ?

 

[JVAC]

What purpose does a question like that serve?

It is a challenge to your following the 'spirit of the law' rather than the letter.

 

[MormonFriend]

It is a challenge to your following the 'spirit of the law' rather than the letter.

I hope that your interest is genuine. Tithing has been defined as 10% of one's increase.

ma'aser {mah-as-ayr'} or ma'asar {mah-as-ar'} and (in plural) feminine ma'asrah {mah-as-raw'}
Hebrew: noun masculine
Possible Definitions:
1) tithe, tenth part
1a) tenth part
1b) tithe, payment of a tenth part

That is what the Lord requires. Many offer more when circumstances permit.
We also believe in a higher order called the "Law of Consecration." If and when the Lord requires that of us through revelation, I would not hesitate to give all that I have to, and all I can do for the Lord's Kingdom. I feel that I speak for all devoted LDS. That is what our God is worth to us, and more since we are unprofitable and forever in His debt.

 

[JVAC]

In response to your ten percent. I do grant to you that that is the letter of the Law! However, I do not concur as that being the spirit of the law. Christ showed us this in his life, teaching, and Sermon on the Mount. In his Sermon on the Mount he showed that merely following the law as is, is not following its 'spirit', he gave examples of lusting in mind being adultery and such. This can also be applied to tithing, whereby, giving your minimum to fulfill the law is like paying the tax man, you do it because you have to. Whereas if you followed the spirit you would not have a set amount but give according to your ability.

Christ did so say that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. You cannot get by with ten percent, and yet have plenty for that fourth car, that is not how things work. The term we can apply is 'Sacrificial Giving' a form of crucifying your own flesh to give unto God. This is a very high form of love that one can forsake themselve and give all they can to God, loving and trusting in Him. I do not tell you to do this! It must be your own emotion to drive you there, no law will give you Love of God.

I have seen churches that are dirt poor, the people could never be able to give close to ten percent, and yet they are the most loving of God I have ever seen. I have seen the Holy Spirit there.

 

[Peterson]

Hey Mormonfriend,
Benny Hinn, Duplantis, Ron Parsley and a bunch of other TBNers would sure love to have your address.

Actually, you couldn't tithe in the Biblical sense if you wanted to. Give 10% to somebody? That you can do, but it wouldn't be tithing. Even Jews do not tithe today. When you establish a Levitical priesthood, and have a temple operating in Jerusalem, then tithing will be the thing. Anybody else is taking your money under false pretenses.