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the apostacy

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happyinhisgrace

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MF said: The Body of Christ cannot exist unless those who are members are led by the same Head. Using people from different walks of life that understand the same scripture differently means that they are hearing different spirits that teach them. That creates divisions, not unity. That is what the apostasy is all about.

If they understand scripture differently, how can you come up with "the basis of Christianity?"


Wow, well if we use your logic (pasted above) that means that even when Jesus was alive, his church was in apostascy because he was always teaching and correcting those who thought differently on a specific subject of the scripture (OT), even though they were his followers.

Does this mean that JS was right when he claimed he had done more for the church than even Jesus himself could do? I think I will take a few steps back and avoid the lightening strike that is sure to come.

God Bless-
Grace
 
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happyinhisgrace said:
MF said: The Body of Christ cannot exist unless those who are members are led by the same Head. Using people from different walks of life that understand the same scripture differently means that they are hearing different spirits that teach them. That creates divisions, not unity. That is what the apostasy is all about.

If they understand scripture differently, how can you come up with "the basis of Christianity?"


Wow, well if we use your logic (pasted above) that means that even when Jesus was alive, his church was in apostascy because he was always teaching and correcting those who thought differently on a specific subject of the scripture (OT), even though they were his followers.
Many received the correction and many more would not receive correction. The Church when Jesus was alive was as strong as the followers that received correction, and soon dwindled after His death. [/QUOTE]

happyinhisgrace said:
Does this mean that JS was right when he claimed he had done more for the church than even Jesus himself could do? I think I will take a few steps back and avoid the lightening strike that is sure to come.

God Bless-
Grace
I doubt that the context is what you are trying to make it appear.
 
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happyinhisgrace

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MormonFriend said:
Many received the correction and many more would not receive correction. The Church when Jesus was alive was as strong as the followers that received correction, and soon dwindled after His death.

Where does the Bible say this?


I doubt that the context is what you are trying to make it appear.[/QUOTE]

You mean that you doubt that Joseph Smith claimed to have done more for the church than even Jesus could do? Here is what he said in full context:


History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409

Address of the Prophet - His Testimony Against the Dissenters at Nauvoo.

President Joseph Smith read the 11th Chap. II Corinthians. My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. If oppression will make a wise man mad, much more a fool. If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them. When facts are proved, truth and innocence will prevail at last. My enemies are no philosophers: they think that when they have my spoke under, they will keep me down; but for the fools, I will hold on and fly over them.
God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days

page 409

of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go. For the last three years I have a record of all my acts and proceedings, for I have kept several good, faithful, and efficient clerks in constant employ: they have accompanied me everywhere, and carefully kept my history, and they have written down what I have done, where I have been, and what I have said; therefore my enemies cannot charge me with any day, time, or place, but what I have written testimony to prove my actions; and my enemies cannot prove anything against me. They have got wonderful things in the land of Ham. I think the grand jury have strained at a gnat and swallowed the camel.
A man named Simpson says I made an affidavit against him, &c. Mr. Simpson says I arrested him. I never arrested Mr. Simpson in my life. He says I made an affidavit against him. I never made an affidavit against him in my life. I will prove it in court. I will tell you how it was: Last winter I got ready with my children to go to the farm to kill hogs. Orrin P. Rockwell was going to drive. An Englishman came in and wanted a private conversation with me. I told him I did not want any private conversations. "I demand one of you! " Such a one I am bound to obey anyhow. Said he-"I want a warrant against the man who stabbed Brother Badham. He said it was a man who boarded at Davis'. He said it was Mr. Simpson-it answered his description. I said I had no jurisdiction out of the city. He said-"The man must be arrested, or else he will go away." I told him-"You must go to Squire Wells, Johnson, or Foster." Mr. Lytle stepped up and said-"I am a policeman." I jumped into my carriage, and away I went.
 
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gort

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The followers of Jesus ran away from Him
Hello happyinhisgrace,

It is sad to see someone make a statement as this, apparently not knowing that the Shepard would be struck as prophesised. And also to boast that that no man had ever done a work such as he. That is pure arrogance, and no need to understand context whatsoever.

<><
 
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happyinhisgrace

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daneel said:

Hello happyinhisgrace,

It is sad to see someone make a statement as this, apparently not knowing that the Shepard would be struck as prophesised. And also to boast that that no man had ever done a work such as he. That is pure arrogance, and no need to understand context whatsoever.

<><

I agree, a true prophet of God would never make such a claim, never.

God bless,
Grace
 
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fatboys

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happyinhisgrace said:
I agree, a true prophet of God would never make such a claim, never.

God bless,
Grace

FB: Can I ask a question? Why is it that when a reasonable statement is made, you do not answer it, but change the topic with inflammatory statements about Joseph Smith? It is predictable.
 
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happyinhisgrace

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fatboys said:
FB: Can I ask a question? Why is it that when a reasonable statement is made, you do not answer it, but change the topic with inflammatory statements about Joseph Smith? It is predictable.

wait, you didn't give me time to say whether or not you could ask a question.
(predictable)

Ok, I will go ahead and answer it anyway. First of all was it a statement that I did not answer or was it a question, being as questions are answered, statements are responded to. Secondly, which reasonable statement are you reffering to? Third, do you deny that JS said what I posted?

Grace
 
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praying

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MormonFriend said:
As a side note, this subject is only a small part of the whole picture puzzle. There are many other pieces to fit together, and without doing so a person cannot comprehend the full purposes of God. One needs to understand properly the concept of our pre-earth existance. One needs to know that chastisement or sometimes even a curse is a work of God's love for us. No matter who may carry the mark, it does not predestinate them to any end. As always, life and its surprises and challenges are means to bring out the true colors of the heart and character.

The many other pieces of the picture I referred to are most unlikely to be learned here at this forum. I am not a racist, nor could I embrace a group or philosophy that is. (Upon request I could give a list of character references from those of many nationalities.

True, in their ignorance and guile, many have embraced Mormonism thinking it was of a racist association, and they shall inherit their rewards.

and still I say how do you know it was African Americans that bore that mark? so again why us and not say the Aborigines of Australia
 
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mhatten said:
and still I say how do you know it was African Americans that bore that mark? so again why us and not say the Aborigines of Australia



I posted my reply as a "side note," not wanting to enter a subject with so many unknowns. It is impossible to draw any conclusions or even dependable theories.



I am now speaking from what is in my thoughts and heart.

I do not know that it was African Americans who bore the mark. I have read several strong perspectives from high leadership in the LDSChurch, indicating it is so. Their statements are not derived from scripture, so the perspectives are not officially our beliefs. Maybe they are correct, perhaps they are wrong. What I am sure of is that in the long run, whatever life dishes out to us is designed to refine and polish us.



I posted this first: "As a side note, this subject is only a small part of the whole picture puzzle. There are many other pieces to fit together, and without doing so a person cannot comprehend the full purposes of God. One needs to understand properly theconcept of our pre-earth existence. One needs to know that chastisement or sometimes even a curse is a work of God's love for us. No matter who may carry the mark, it does not predestinate them to any end. As always, life and its surprises and challenges are means to bring out the true colors of the heart and character."



It is my observation that Blacks (African Americans would not include the many branches where the African roots have grown.) have endured persecutions and hardships way above and beyond the equal share of most other human beings. I know that God is just, therefore there must be reasons for such adversity that harmonizes with His justice. Our pre-earth existence holds the reasons.



Many have said that those who were “bad” in the pre-earth life are those that are cursed. This may have partial application, but there are several variables I know of that would require adverse experiences. The important issue is that adversity is what gives us strength and develops our faith and character. When I think of it this way, I realize that the adversity that others are called to endure might crush me, so I see those who suffer as the stronger spirit children of God. This makes more sense as one comes closer to understanding the full concept and doctrine of our pre-earth life, so please do not make any haste conclusions to what I am trying to convey.



Many individuals and many races suffer all kinds of difficulties. Suffering is a teaching tool, the greatest example is in Hebrews. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;” (Hebrews5:8) We all endeavor to follow the Son, even in suffering. And it would seem that the prime purpose is to learn obedience, which would be equivalent to purging our pride. And we all have plenty of that.



I hope these thoughts have provided some satisfactory considerations.



Darell
 
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fatboys

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MormonFriend said:
I posted my reply as a "side note," not wanting to enter a subject with so many unknowns. It is impossible to draw any conclusions or even dependable theories.



I am now speaking from what is in my thoughts and heart.

I do not know that it was African Americans who bore the mark. I have read several strong perspectives from high leadership in the LDSChurch, indicating it is so. Their statements are not derived from scripture, so the perspectives are not officially our beliefs. Maybe they are correct, perhaps they are wrong. What I am sure of is that in the long run, whatever life dishes out to us is designed to refine and polish us.



I posted this first: "As a side note, this subject is only a small part of the whole picture puzzle. There are many other pieces to fit together, and without doing so a person cannot comprehend the full purposes of God. One needs to understand properly theconcept of our pre-earth existence. One needs to know that chastisement or sometimes even a curse is a work of God's love for us. No matter who may carry the mark, it does not predestinate them to any end. As always, life and its surprises and challenges are means to bring out the true colors of the heart and character."



It is my observation that Blacks (African Americans would not include the many branches where the African roots have grown.) have endured persecutions and hardships way above and beyond the equal share of most other human beings. I know that God is just, therefore there must be reasons for such adversity that harmonizes with His justice. Our pre-earth existence holds the reasons.



Many have said that those who were “bad” in the pre-earth life are those that are cursed. This may have partial application, but there are several variables I know of that would require adverse experiences. The important issue is that adversity is what gives us strength and develops our faith and character. When I think of it this way, I realize that the adversity that others are called to endure might crush me, so I see those who suffer as the stronger spirit children of God. This makes more sense as one comes closer to understanding the full concept and doctrine of our pre-earth life, so please do not make any haste conclusions to what I am trying to convey.



Many individuals and many races suffer all kinds of difficulties. Suffering is a teaching tool, the greatest example is in Hebrews. “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;” (Hebrews5:8) We all endeavor to follow the Son, even in suffering. And it would seem that the prime purpose is to learn obedience, which would be equivalent to purging our pride. And we all have plenty of that.



I hope these thoughts have provided some satisfactory considerations.



Darell

FB: Thank you MF your words were thoughts I had, but could not express them as you did. Very well said.
 
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fatboys

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You are not paying attention. I do not care one whit what some LDS so-called "ancient text" says.


FB: I realize that you do not believe that the Book of Abraham is not what it says to be. I said so in my introduction to it. My post was addressed to Sissygal. She wanted to know who we came to the conclusions. Although it is not nothing more than opinion, I was trying to address her question.


Evidently the LDS god is not ommipotent. Read the account of Noah. Why did God destroy the world? God destroyed the entire world, and all its inhabitants, to rid the world of wickedness. But somehow the LDS god did not know that the cursed/sinful/tainted blood of Cain would survive the flood through Ham's wife, who was allegedly a descendant of Cain.

FB: We don't know much about Egyptus, but the fact that Ham's wife was on the ark says that there was righteous faith involved. We believe that Ham's wife was of the lineage of Cain. That does not make her unrighteous, evil or sinful. And even though Ham survived the flood, his actions purported the ban of the priesthood. The Curse was not to deny them righteous actions in their lives.



Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


FB: And you call our God limited and powerless, and yet your God had to repent. Does not sound like a all knowing powerful God to me.


And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

FB: Why would God destroy the animals? Couldn't have just destroyed man. Have animals changed from that time?




The so-called "Book of Abraham" has been shown, by numerous scholars, to be false. The scrolls from which it was supposedly translated were in fact Egyptian funerary texts, dating many, many years after Abraham. None of the facsimiles, in the BoA, supposedly written by Abraham, even mention the name Abraham at all. But the name of Egyptian deities does appear in the facsimiles.


FB: There have been links to writings of scholars who have found that Joseph Smith did indeed translate many of characters correctly. It looks as though you have chosen not to read any of these sites.
 
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happyinhisgrace

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FB: And you call our God limited and powerless, and yet your God had to repent. Does not sound like a all knowing powerful God to me.

The passage said, "it repented the Lord", not "and the Lord repented". In this context the word "repented" means "grieved".

God bless-
Grace
 
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fatboys

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happyinhisgrace said:
FB: And you call our God limited and powerless, and yet your God had to repent. Does not sound like a all knowing powerful God to me.

The passage said, "it repented the Lord", not "and the Lord repented". In this context the word "repented" means "grieved".

God bless-
Grace

FB: Exodus 32:14 . I guess God was grieved about this also? That is what repentance is Grace, being sorry for what you have done and then change.
 
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happyinhisgrace

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fatboys said:
FB: Exodus 32:14 . I guess God was grieved about this also? That is what repentance is Grace, being sorry for what you have done and then change.

We repent and are grieved because of our sin against God. God has no sin therefore it is not the same for him as it is for us. Obviously God was not repenting for his sin against himself, he was grieved....good grief.

Grace
 
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