the apocalypse

[Commander]

The Great Harlot of Revelation 17 and Babylon of Revelation 18 are two different entities.

The Harlot represents All False Religion and is Judged, burned, and HATED by the Kings who destroy her. Why do the Kings in league with the Anti-Christ destroy her ? Because in their world, there can only be ONE GOD, so she is destroyed. Islam and all other religions will be destroyed *JUDGED*

Babylon represents the Final anti-God Government system, and the whole world minus the Church, that is being judged, hence when she burns (Plagues of God) the Kings CRY & WAIL for her.......Two different entities.

There is only one God-Ephesians 4:4-6. For we are all one in Christ Jesus-Galatians 3:28. For the judgment came upon all men to condemnation-Romans 5:18. What we judge-2 Corinthians 5:14-15. The name of the anti-Christ is also in the N.T. Have a blessed day knowing that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe 1 Timothy 4:10

 

[Job8]

Well, I can't get down on Victorinus for being willing to discuss the end times outside of just the historist view, because it should be noted that he made an effort with this being an untagged thread. I think he deserves some credit for that.

Fair enough. Credit where credit is due. Getting back to the Apocalypse, the biggest mistake one can make is to imagine that the majority of God's judgments are already past. Both Daniel and the Lord Jesus Christ tell us that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are so unprecedented, that such a time has never been nor will ever be again. And since it is accompanied by cataclysmic cosmic events that shake both the earth and the heaven, it should be crystal clear that all of this yet future (6th and 7th seal judgments).

 

[Commander]

Speaking of earthquakes, Matthew 28:2 tells us "And behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it." By reading the report of Pontius Pilate to Augustus Caesar we learn that the earthquake was felt all over the world. You may also read in Matthew were the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. That all Biblical prophecy has taken place in the past, we are in the eight day, and Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

 

[Straightshot]

"Both Daniel and the Lord Jesus Christ tell us that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are so unprecedented, that such a time has never been nor will ever be again. And since it is accompanied by cataclysmic cosmic events that shake both the earth and the heavens, it should be crystal clear that all of this is yet future"

True

 

[Revealing Times]

There is only one God-Ephesians 4:4-6. For we are all one in Christ Jesus-Galatians 3:28. For the judgment came upon all men to condemnation-Romans 5:18. What we judge-2 Corinthians 5:14-15. The name of the anti-Christ is also in the N.T. Have a blessed day knowing that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe 1 Timothy 4:10

I stated that the Harlot of Rev. 17 and Babylon of Rev. 18 are not he same thing. I don't know what that has to do with God being one, I am confused.

 

[victorinus]

the abomination of desolation
-
so what is in the holy place now?
-
the dome of the rock
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not many agree with this,
not many agree what the holy place is,
not many care but it is my job to present what I think fits what has been prophesied -
if we have the time, we have history, so let's use it to help us understand what is not so clearly written in the bible
-
back to daniel
back to the apocalypse

 

[victorinus]

timeline of the apocalypse

30 john the baptist writes the first apocalypse
67 new jerusalem, rev 21:2, linus replaces peter in rome
68 first of seven heads, end of the first dynasty julio-claudian, rev 17:10
96 second of the seven heads, end of flavian dynasty

192 third of the seven heads, end of the adoptive and antonine emperors
235 fourth of the seven heads, end of House of Severus
312 rider of the white horse, constantine, rev 6:2
313 paganism the first beast mortally wounded, edict of milan, rev 13:3
330 the thousand year reign begins, rev 20:2
364 fifth of the seven heads tetrarchy and the House of Constantine
400 five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come, rev 17:10
455 sixth of the seven heads House of Valentinian
476 seventh of the seven heads Family of Leo I the Great
622 rider of the red horse, mohammed, rev 6:4
632 the first horn of ten, rev 17:12
637 jerusalem falls to the first horn, Rashidun Caliphate
661 the second horn, Umayyad Caliphate
666 the first siege of constantinople, rev 15:2
717 the second siege of constantinople
750 the third horn, Abbasid Caliphate
868 the fourth horn, Tulunid and Fatimid Dynasties in Egypt
973 Ifriqiya and Sicily, end of horn number 5

1194 Seljuk Empire ends, horn number 6
1269 Almoravid and Almohad Dynasties in Maghreb ends, horn number 7
1299 ottoman dynasty starts
1390 first siege of constantinople by ottoman dynasty
1411 second siege
1422 third
1453 fourth and constantinople is fallen, rev 18:2
1453 end of the thousand years, rev 20:7
1736 Safavid dynasty ends, horn number 8
1848 rider of the black horse, marx, father of communism, rev 6:4
1857 Mughal Empire ends, horn number 9
1922 Ottoman Empire ends, horn number 10
1930 and shall be found no more at all, rev 18:21, the end of constantinople, babylon the great

 

[Gregory Thompson]

@victorinus I found it very interesting, which is unusual for eschatology, usually I feel lead to post passages in contrast.

When looking at the end times, I tend to look at the seven days of creation as a model for a new heaven and earth, for example Jesus being the end of the "third" day where dry land was the sign, relating to what God did on the 4th day. The rest however, is attributing history to the rest of the signs. Signs seems to indicate that the age of "man" is coming next, as there are already many Iron beasts that devour the earth and trample the residue under their feet ... and I don't mean the iconic automobiles so much .. but corporations and the beached whale colonial outfits that preceeded them.

Another model I use is looking at church history starting with Jesus as Moses, the 12 as the 12 and Paul as Joshua. Currently we're in a state of captivity, and preparations "for return" are being made that remind of the leaders who lead the people out of exile during the babylonian exile period.

As far as heads of blasphemy, I tend to equate them to state religions.

 

[victorinus]

@victorinus I found it very interesting, which is unusual for eschatology, usually I feel lead to post passages in contrast.

thank you

 

[Straightshot]

Interesting material above, but correction in course

The general historical view attempting to place future unfulfilled prophecy into the past is erroneous

This cannot be done without compromising against the Lord's more sure word of prophecy

For example, there are no events of the past 2000 years contained within the scope of the prophetic visions .... none

.... and the Ottoman Empire is not there and was not the finish

There is a Middle Eastern Empire in the scope .... but this one is still pending as we speak

Trying to relegate all of His prophetic word into the past is a mistake .... much of the same has simply never transpired .... but it will be done

 

[Gregory Thompson]

@Straightshot - I wouldn't say it is a mistake. The bible teaches to look out for the signs of his coming. Endeavors that take past events and equate them with scripture means we are at least still waiting, and watching.

 

[victorinus]

the purpose of the timeline was to show how the pieces fit -
there a many theories out there but they don't always show the overall picture

 

[Straightshot]

You have interesting material

So take the same and use it to learn that there has been no prophetical fulfillment during the last 2000 years of history .... all of the balance of unfulfilled prophecy is still pending

The last 2000 years has been the period of the Lord's dispensation of grace which will come to an end and then the balance of the prophecies will begin to come to pass

Here are the major schools of thought

The preterist attempts to conclude all fulfillment in the first century

The historical view attempts to fit historical events over the last 2000 years into the scope .... but there is no fit .... the fit must be a 100% matching

The future view finds the correct divide between fulfilled prophecy in scripture and the balance to come

This can be done by having accurate knowledge of the past and an indepth and accurate understanding of the events that are a part of the scope

Comparisons can be made and one will then have the unfulfilled portion to expect to come to pass

There is no more powerful witness than the Lord's more sure word of prophecy for a witness .... this authenticates that His Word is true [2 Peter 1:16-21]

 

[victorinus]

You have interesting material

thank you -
I appreciate that -
we agree that we are called to watch -
we can't just look to the future -
the jews are still looking for the first coming -
hopefully some here will look into the rear view mirror -
there just might be something there

 

[Straightshot]

There is great value in knowing an accurate historical record and particularly in the discovery that past fulfilled prophecy when compared is a 100% match

So study on and discover that much of the balance of the scope of the visions of the prophets is still pending .... you will find that these things have no accurate historical matching if rendered properly

And when you do this you can know what is coming and that these things hereafter will be fulfilled with 100% accuracy .... the prophets never miss [Revelation 1:19; 4:1]

 

[victorinus]

There is great value in knowing an accurate historical record and particularly in the discovery that past fulfilled prophecy when compared is a 100% match

So study on and discover that much of the balance of the scope of the visions of the prophets is still pending .... you will find that these things have no accurate historical matching if rendered properly

that has a lot to do with what your interpretation is

 

[Straightshot]

Everything to do with the correct rendering .... and it is possible to do this

 

[Douggg]

455 sixth of the seven heads House of Valentinian

The sixth, the one is. one is ? 455ad ?

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

The prophecies are for when the Jews are in the land (of Israel).

 

[Revealing Times]

So take the same and use it to learn that there has been no prophetical fulfillment during the last 2000 years of history .... all of the balance of unfulfilled prophecy is still pending

Not exactly correct. Ezekiel's prophecy of Israel coming to life from dead bones has come to pass. The exact locations of the new sections of Jerusalem was foretold, don't ask me to recite this without looking for it. Been years. But for the most part you are correct. I think you should have said until 1948, there was no prophetic fulfillment.

I do not buy what Vic is selling though, it is just not feasible imho, I like the guy, buy it seems way out there to me.

 

[Straightshot]

"Not exactly correct. Ezekiel's prophecy of Israel coming to life from dead bones has come to pass. The exact locations of the new sections of Jerusalem was foretold, don't as me to recite this without looking for it. Been years. But for the most part you are correct. I think you should have said until 1948"


Nay ..... 1948 was only a setting up of the remnant in the land ... the 70th week decreed for Israel is still pending as we speak .... same time frame as the coming tribulation of the Lord's judgment upon the whole world

There is no anchor dating of 1948 in any prophetic scripture

The Lord will decide when He is ready to bring the coming fulfillment of His prophets with regard for Israel ..... until the He awaits for this [Romans 11:25-36]

Israel must be in the land in order to experience the time of Jacob's trouble that is coming

The Lord is protecting the remnant at this time and they must experience this coming purging [Ezekiel:33-44]

Only when the tribulation is over will all of the believing remnant of Israel be be gathered [Isaiah 11]

The only counting revealed is the length of the 70th week decreed .... but the start date is not .... and it was not 1948 .... many more years could pass before the 70th week begins .... a dating that the Lord has not revealed

When this time segment begins one will be able to count the days [1260+1260+30] .... and then He will gather a believing remnant for entrance into His millennial kingdom upon the earth

.... of which Israel and Jerusalem will be at the center [Micah 4:1-3; 5]