The Alternative to a Rapture

[keras]

Differently, the fleeing to the mountains, in the end times, is in Matthew 24:15-21 - for a different reason...

Yes; you are right; {see; I can admit a mistake]

When the AoD is seen in the Temple, it will be at the mid point of the final 7 years before Jesus Returns. Daniel 9:27
Therefore, that is when the Christian peoples will be taken to the place of safety. Rev 12:14 I view those in Judea, verse 16, as being the Jewish remnant, who may be treated differently from the rest of the Christian peoples.

 

[Douggg]

Yes; you are right; {see; I can admit a mistake]

Okay, so we agree and don't have to argue about that.

When the AoD is seen in the Temple, it will be at the mid point of the final 7 years before Jesus Returns. Daniel 9:27
Therefore, that is when the Christian peoples will be taken to the place of safety. Rev 12:14 I view those in Judea, verse 16, as being the Jewish remnant, who may be treated differently from the rest of the Christian peoples.

keras, the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is both for the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ".

So there has to be a resurrection coupled with a translation of the living at the same time.

There is not a specific text in Revelation of that event (a resurrection coupled with a translation) taking place - because it cannot be pinpointed as to what year. Jesus's instructions are for believers to be ready and watching. We are certainly aware of the times, aren't we?

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In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is speaking specifically to the Jews (them who are not Christians). As they will be going through the great tribulation, having not been taken in the rapture/resurrection event.

 

[keras]

the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is both for the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ".

There is no such thing as a 'rapture/resurrection event'.
1 Thess 4:15-18 will happen when Jesus Returns, at the Seventh Bowl; Revelation 16:16-18. Jesus disposes of the armies at Armagedón and gathers His people to Him to commence His Millennium reign.
When will it be possible for you to read Revelation 20:4-6? THE ONLY DEAD PEOPLE RAISED WILL BE THE GT MARTYRS.

Even the worthless KJV says: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

 

[Douggg]

When will it be possible for you to read Revelation 20:4-6? THE ONLY DEAD PEOPLE RAISED WILL BE THE GT MARTYRS.

The Revelation 20:4-6 resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs is not the 1Thessalonians4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event.

The 1Thessalonians4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event is for both the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ". It does not include the great tribulation martyrs of their specific resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6.

The 1Thessalinans4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event will take place before the great tribulation begins - so that the living "in Christ" will escape going through the great tribulation.

1 Thess 4:15-18 will happen when Jesus Returns, at the Seventh Bowl; Revelation 16:16-18. Jesus disposes of the armies at Armagedón and gathers His people to Him to commence His Millennium reign.

The Seventh Bowl of God's wrath takes place right before Jesus descends to earth to the Mt. of Olives.

Jesus disposes of the armies surrounding Jerusalem. Not the armies that will have gathered at Armageddon. Those will be destroyed by an angel.

Zechariah 14:2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. kjv

Half of Jerusalem will be held as hostages by the armies. Jesus will destroy those armies surrounding Jerusalem.

In Revelation 14:17-20, an angel will then detroy the armies that will have overllowed in Israel, gathered at Armageddon, beyond Jerusalem.

17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. kjv

20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

So, keep this in mind: Jesus, standing on the Mt. of Olives, will destroy the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

Immediately after their destruction, the angel in Revelation 14:17 will destroy the armies gathered at Armageddon beyond Jerusalem. The blood will run a horse bridle deep in some places, the length of Israel.

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The sequence of events in that day will be Jesus descends from heaven and stands on the Mt. of Olives, splitting it in half.

The hostages flee to safety through the valley created.

Jesus then stares directly at the abomination of desolation statue image, indwelt by Satan, and by the intensity of His stare, brings the outer facade of the image to go up in flames, turning it to ashes. Exposing Satan for everyone to see there on the temple mount. Ezekiel 28:16-19.

Then a fiery portal will open. And the beast-king and the false prophet will be cast alive into that lake of fire. Revelation 19:19. As Satan looks on.

Then, in Revelation 19:20, Jesus will speak to the armies - die. And Satan will see the armies that he had convinced the kings of the earth to assemble to make war on Jesus and surround Jerusalem taking hostages - die, their flesh and eyes consumed away, Zechariah 14:12.

Then, in Revelation 20:1-3, an angel shall descend from heaven down to earth and bind up Satan, and a portal will open to the bottomless pit and Satan will be cast into it.

 

[keras]

The Revelation 20:4-6 resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs is not the 1Thessalonians4:15-18

They both happen at the glorious Return of Jesus.

The 1Thessalinans4:15-18 rapture/resurrection event will take place before the great tribulation begins - so that the living "in Christ" will escape going through the great tribulation.

This idea is so patently wrong and unscriptural, you should write Hollywood scripts.

The Seventh Bowl of God's wrath takes place right before Jesus descends to earth to the Mt. of Olives.

True.

Zechariah 14:2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. kjv

Half of Jerusalem will be held as hostages by the armies. Jesus will destroy those armies surrounding Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:1-2 will take place at the mid point of the final 7 years, when the AC desolates the Temple.

The rest of your speculation is just your imagination and your colorful blob is a space waster.

 

[Douggg]

Zechariah 14:1-2 will take place at the mid point of the final 7 years, when the AC desolates the Temple.

No, taking half Jerusalem captive will be at the very end of the 7 years, as part of the strategy by the kings of the earth, the beast king, Satan, and the false prophet to keep Jesus from executing judgment on them.

Those armies surrounding Jerusalem in Zechariah 14 will be destroyed by Jesus, Revelation 14:14-16. The rest of the armies overflowing in Israel, having assembled at Armageddon will be destroyed by the angel in Revelation 14:17-20

 

[Douggg]

Zechariah 14:1-2 will take place at the mid point of the final 7 years, when the AC desolates the Temple.

keras, Zechariah 14 is at Jesus's return when He stands on the Mt. Olives, splitting it in half. Zechariah 14:4.

 

[Dan Perez]

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You seem to be confused.

Did then find the Greek word RAPTURE in the bible , then say where that verse is found , then I can study that verse ?

Please give you thoughts on Cor 6:2 and 3 since you say they are not true , PLEASE say WHY , and do not just say that I am CONFUSED !!

dan p

 

[keras]

keras, Zechariah 14 is at Jesus's return when He stands on the Mt. Olives, splitting it in half. Zechariah 14:4.

Zechariah 14:3 is the Return, but verses 1 & 2 describe the conquest of Jerusalem by the Anti-Christ 'beast'.

Get it right, Douggg, Zech 14:1-2, is when the AC takes control of Jerusalem and the world, 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. At that time, He will sit in the Temple, built by the Christian peoples, 2 Thess 2:4, Daniel 9:27

 

[Fisherking]

The rapture properly taught means that believers are taken up to the clouds to meet Jesus there in the clouds. Where they will tabernacle with Jesus for 7 years while the tribulation is carried out. Then the believers will be brought back to earth after the tribulation is over to help out during the 1000 year rule of Jesus on the restored earth.

The rapture should never be taught that believers are taken up into heaven to live there.

Pretty close, except its really for the 70th week, and I understand all time on earth is tribulation, but most people are thinking God's Wrath which only lasts for 3.5 years. But close enough, I know the 70th week is tribulation, and the last 3.5 years is the worst ever tribulation.

As per us coming back to help out for 1000 years. I think we only come back for the marriage supper on earth, as Rev. 19 describes Armageddon as this marriage supper.

But Rev. 20:4 seems to clearly indicate we will not remain on earth for 1000 years with Jesus. Notice it states only those who refused the Mark of the Beast live and reign on earth with Jesus for 1000 years.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

So, how many people with Glorious bodies does Jesus need on earth? Not that many tbh. He is God after all, so where do we go to? Seems as New Jerusalem descends it is called the Bride of Christ, and thus I assume because we descend in New Jerusalem, Jesus is not marrying a city, we go back to Heaven, help finish off New Jerusalem, then we descend in New Jerusalem.

 

[keras]

Isaiah 57:1-2 The righteous perish and no one is concerned, those loyal to their faith are persecuted; they achieve peace at last on their deathbed.

Isaiah 57:3-11 Come near, you children of sin; spawn of a lie. You practice idolatry, desert your Maker and make bargains with men. You don’t think that your plight is desperate, because now, you have renewed vigour, you do not worry about your future. As the Lord kept silent and looked away, so you don’t fear Him, don’t remember Him or give Him a thought.

Isaiah 57:12-15 Now I shall expose your conduct, that what you think is right. Your idols will not help you; when disaster comes, your strength will vanish.
But he who puts his trust in Me will possess the Land and inherit My holy Place.
Then the Lord will say: Prepare the way for My people, let them come to the Place of My dwelling. I will revive the spirit of the humble and the courage of the disheartened.

Isaiah 57:16-19 I shall not always be accusing, I shall not keep My wrath forever, or else the spirit of mankind would fail because of Me. For a short time, I was angry with My people, I withdrew My favour from Israel because of their sins. Despite their conduct, I will heal them and give them relief and comfort. Those who mourn for Israel will then praise Me, as I heal and save them. There will be peace for all, both far and near.
Reference: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

‘the righteous perish’ - the persecution of Christians now and throughout the ages. Matthew 23:35, Revelation 6:9-11

‘you practice idolatry - The apostate and atheistic peoples of today have no idea that their judgement is coming. Ezekiel 20:39, Romans 2:9-11

‘renewed strength’- The descendants of Jacob today, in the Christian nations, have become numerous, rich and powerful, so they no longer ‘give the Lord a thought’.

‘when disaster comes, your strength will vanish’ - the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. Isaiah 17:4-6 The military powers of the world will be destroyed or neutralized by this judgement against the Lord’s enemies, which will ‘prepare the way’, for the return to the Land of My people. Jeremiah 31:21, Isaiah 43:5-7, Ezekiel 20:34

The punishment and exile of Israel and Judah is for a decreed time; ‘a short time’, to the Lord. Now, as that term of exile nears completion, we look forward to ‘relief and comfort’ and ‘peace for all’, for EVERY faithful Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language, in the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 37:26

 

[d taylor]

Did then find the Greek word RAPTURE in the bible , then say where that verse is found , then I can study that verse ?

Please give you thoughts on Cor 6:2 and 3 since you say they are not true , PLEASE say WHY , and do not just say that I am CONFUSED !!

dan p

Do you find Jesus' name in The Tanakh or John the Baptist. What does judging angels have to do with the rapture.
Jesus God's greatest prophet introduced and taught about a rapture.

“But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

Jesus is going to be in the clouds and the only way to stand before Jesus, is to be taken away from the earth.

Jesus also states this in Matthew 24 in the Olivet discourse. Here is below a study of this read it if you like.

 

[keras]

Jesus is going to be in the clouds and the only way to stand before Jesus, is to be taken away from the earth.

This is a totally wrong assumption.
Prophesies like 1 Thess 4, never mention heaven. You are denying the Words of Jesus if you think people go to live in heaven.

The 'sheep and goat' Judgment of the nations, Matthew 25:31-33, plainly takes place on the earth.

 

[d taylor]

This is a totally wrong assumption.
Prophesies like 1 Thess 4, never mention heaven. You are denying the Words of Jesus if you think people go to live in heaven.

The 'sheep and goat' Judgment of the nations, Matthew 25:31-33, plainly takes place on the earth.

You really need to read post that i make, not one time have i stated that people who are raptured go to heaven. No wonder you are confused in your eschatology

 

[keras]

You really need to read post that i make, not one time have i stated that people who are raptured go to heaven. No wonder you are confused in your eschatology

You said that we stand before Jesus in the clouds.
If in the clouds is not heaven, [many people do wrongly think it does mean in heaven] then it is a place of water vapour, hardly conducive to 'standing'.

The being 'caught up to the clouds' is not to stay there for any length of time, but to be transported thru the earths atmosphere to where Jesus is going to and will spend the next thousand years in; that is: Jerusalem.

 

[d taylor]

You said that we stand before Jesus in the clouds.
If in the clouds is not heaven, [many people do wrongly think it does mean in heaven] then it is a place of water vapour, hardly conducive to 'standing'.

The being 'caught up to the clouds' is not to stay there for any length of time, but to be transported thru the earths atmosphere to where Jesus is going to and will spend the next thousand years in; that is: Jerusalem.

The clouds are part of the first heaven in Genesis the Hebrew word is raqia (heaven, dome,sky). This is the location of the sun, moon and stars and is separating two large bodies of water.

Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

The word heaven is the Greek word ouranos
ouranos: heaven
Original Word: οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os')
Definition: heaven
Usage: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens.

 

[keras]

The clouds are part of the first heaven in Genesis the Hebrew word is raqia (heaven, dome,sky). This is the location of the sun, moon and stars and is separating two large bodies of water.

Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.

The word heaven is the Greek word ouranos
ouranos: heaven
Original Word: οὐρανός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Spelling: (oo-ran-os')
Definition: heaven
Usage: heaven, (a) the visible heavens: the atmosphere, the sky, the starry heavens, (b) the spiritual heavens.

Why don't you address the Greek word which is translated as 'clouds',?
It is 'aera', Strongs G109; meaning the air we breath, our atmosphere. Nothing to do with any spiritual heaven.

I repeat: those faithful Christians who remain alive, will be caught up and transported to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be for the next thousand years.

 

[keras]

I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour. But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts. For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people. To the nations you, House of Judah and House of Israel, have become as a curse; now I shall save you – you will become proverbial as a blessing. Courage, do not lose heart! Zechariah 8:7-13
Ref; REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

‘I am about to rescue My people…they will be My people and I will be their God’. We know from New Testament teaching, that the Lord’s people are every true Christian person, Jew or Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Rev 5:9-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 Now I shall take thought for My sheep…I will rescue them from wherever they are scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall bring them home, to their own Land and make them prosper. Isaiah 60:4, Jeremiah 31:1-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14

‘the Day of cloud and darkness’, is the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a CME sunstrike that will de-populate the entire holy Land area, also causing worldwide devastation. Isaiah 30:25-30

‘I have set every man against his neighbour’. This is the current situation in the Middle East.

‘Courage, do not lose heart’. This proves that we must pass through the terrible testing and trials of the forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A literal Day of fire from the sky, of earthquakes, storm winds and tsunamis. It will be a period of ‘cloud and darkness’, from the smoke and ash clouds that will envelope the earth. Zeph. 1:15, Matt.24:29,Joel 2:1-2

‘Peoples will come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, in the new Temple’. From the context of this quote and from other prophesies, it is clear that this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial, worldwide reign. Ezekiel 43:4…the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the Temple by the East gate. And even though verse 23 mentions a Jew, as one who enjoys the Lord’s favour, we know from verse 13 and many other prophesies that Christians from every nation and language, Isaiah 56:1-8, will become citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the new nation formed after the judgement/punishment of fire has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1:2-15

 

[BukiRob]

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The rapture properly taught means that believers are taken up to the clouds to meet Jesus there in the clouds. Where they will tabernacle with Jesus for 7 years while the tribulation is carried out. Then the believers will be brought back to earth after the tribulation is over to help out during the 1000 year rule of Jesus on the restored earth.

The rapture should never be taught that believers are taken up into heaven to live there.

Where does it say that? Not in Matthew 24, not in 1st Corinthians or 2 Thessalonians. As far as I know, those are the main pillars of those doctrines. Every one of those chapters speaks in terms of "THE LAST TRUMPET" which is 100% an indication that it is Messiah's return that ENDS the Tribulation/.

 

[BukiRob]

Okay, so we agree and don't have to argue about that.



keras, the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is both for the living "in Christ" and the dead "in Christ".

So there has to be a resurrection coupled with a translation of the living at the same time.

There is not a specific text in Revelation of that event (a resurrection coupled with a translation) taking place - because it cannot be pinpointed as to what year. Jesus's instructions are for believers to be ready and watching. We are certainly aware of the times, aren't we?

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In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is speaking specifically to the Jews (them who are not Christians). As they will be going through the great tribulation, having not been taken in the rapture/resurrection event.

1st Thessalonians should be read in the same light as 1st Corinthians as the language used is very similar. The problem with trying to paint this as a secret rapture is the part that says SHOUT of the ARC ANGEL and the SOUND OF GOD'S TRUMPET. 1st Corinthians 15 is speaking about the same event. It is the sounding of this trumpet (AT THE VERY END) that will raise the dead in Christ. These are the same events Yeshua spoke about in Matthew 24 and trying to build some rapture doctrine off verses that seem rather clearly pointing to the Triumphant return of Messiah to end the tribulation and set up his reign on earth from Jerusalem is going to require a far CLEARER picture than what you present.

Matthew 24:15 as you interpret it, requires ignoring the context provided in the verses preceding verse 15. Verses 11-14 is talking about BELIEVERS, FOLLOWERS of Messiah. You then ram verse 15 as magically speaking about non-believing Jews with absolutely 0 support for this view. In fact, Scripture TELLS US SPECIFICALLY to PAY ATTENTION to the previous verses for CONTEXT with the OPENING word in verse 15: THEREFORE (DEFINITION: For that or this purpose, referring to something previously stated.)

You simply CAN NOT divorce the people Yeshua was speaking of in 11-14 from the people in 15 because he is speaking about BELIEVER that are living in Jerusalem (either mostly or entirely Jewish)

I will repeat this NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in Matthew 24, 1st Thessalonians, or 1st Corinthians is about a pre trib, midtrib "rapture" They are ALL speaking of Messiah's RETURN and KING bringing to an end the Tribulation