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The 10 Commandments are done away!

JohnRabbit

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Hebrews chapter 10 verse 1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
ok. you prove you do not understand the law of God! :sigh:

the bible talks of "fleshly commandments" and the bible talks of:


Psalms 111:7-8(NKJV)
7 The works of His hands are verity and justice; All His precepts are sure.
8 They stand fast forever and ever, And are done in truth and uprightness.

now, what of the law is temporary and what of the law is forever? (hint: see rom 7:14 before you answer! :oldthumbsup:)

btw, what is a "fleshly commandment"? (let's see where you are!!)
 
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JohnRabbit

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The bible says a lot of things, so it's hard to understand, and I could be wrong in what I say, but I think there's a lot more chance of you being wrong.
1 Peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Jeremiah chapter 22
16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?”
declares the Lord.
sounds like one grasping for straws! ^_^
 
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2 know him

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That does nothing to prove Jesus stated the ten commandments are done away. Especially when he reiterated them as being in force in Matthew.

Are you familiar with the Midrash? It tells us that the reason God created us with 10 fingers is so that whenever we look at our hands we might constantly be reminded of the ten truths God delivered to Moshe on Sinai.

Until someone posts the scripture wherein Jesus revokes what he stated in Matthew, there is no scripture that says the ten are done away. Jesus and the Father were one. John 10:30. What is being argued by some is that Jesus would overturn his own commands that he reiterated as valid in Matthew. When he answered what command was required to find eternal life, and Jesus reiterated to the one that portion of the ten that anyone able to ask him the question would know, it would be an evidence of refuting the Malachi 3:6 passage. God would change his mind about the moral precepts to govern people of the earth. In love. Love for one another and love for the Father.

And being he knew he was going to die so as to fulfill the prophecy and put an end to the ceremonial law of animal sacrifices for the covering of sins, how would it make sense that an omniscient God would reiterate the ten commandments as valid for eternal life still, and then in fulfilling the prophecy by dying on the altar as the last ceremonial sacrifice, renounce the ten he stated earlier were part of His covenant for eternal life?
What? Jesus was just kidding?

Oh, I said this in Matthew to the one that asked me, but when I died on the cross all that changed. Even though dying on the cross was the next step in bringing eternal life to people you can forget what I said about the ten (in Mathew) when I was asked about the commands that are needed to be followed for eternal life.

Jesus died as the ultimate sacrifice and act of love toward us. No greater love has a man than to lay his life down for his brothers.
Love is all of that which upholds and is reflected within and by the ten commandments.


When one understands that Jesus is King and that his words are law, I think the question must become: where did Jesus state that the Sabbath was a part of the New Covenant.

In a previous post I showed that the law was to come that Christ was to give and it wasn't the law that Moses gave as the world awaited the one to come. Jeremiah clearly stated that God was going to make a new covenant, not after the one that was made in the when God let them by the hand.

Jesus's statement that the law and the prophets were until John, or ended with John, clearly shows that the old Covenant law was finished: so why do people keep wanting to turn to it instead of to Jesus which is the answer: the way: the truth: and the life. and the words that he spoke are spirit and they are life.

Paul stated that the old Covenant, in particular that which was written and engraved in stone, was the ministration of condemnation, it is not Spirit or life. as previously pointed out, the law tells you what not to do, not how to live. the thou shalt Nots of the Ten Commandments in no ways tell you how to be righteous through maintaining a good heart which is laid out in the teachings of Christ and only embraced by practice. It is exactly as Jesus stated: If any man will do his will, speaking of his words, he shall know of the doctrine: whether it be of God or whether Jesus spoke of himself.

Jesus said: go into all the world and make disciples, a disciple is one who is discipline in the teachings of a master, Make Disciples of all Nations: teaching them to observe all that he commanded his followers to obey and follow. love your enemies is a great philosophy, but if you're not committed to loving your enemies what good is it? how are you a follower of Jesus Christ? if you actually practice the teachings of Christ you will know the truth of his words and you will have the holy spirit to guide you, but if you base your philosophies on a set of Creed's, ideas, and not the practice of obedience to the teachings of Christ, you will not know Christ. Christ is known by embracing his teachings and it is by embracing his teachings that you become one with him.
 
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disciple1

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That does nothing to prove Jesus stated the ten commandments are done away. Especially when he reiterated them as being in force in Matthew.

Are you familiar with the Midrash? It tells us that the reason God created us with 10 fingers is so that whenever we look at our hands we might constantly be reminded of the ten truths God delivered to Moshe on Sinai.

Until someone posts the scripture wherein Jesus revokes what he stated in Matthew, there is no scripture that says the ten are done away. Jesus and the Father were one. John 10:30. What is being argued by some is that Jesus would overturn his own commands that he reiterated as valid in Matthew. When he answered what command was required to find eternal life, and Jesus reiterated to the one that portion of the ten that anyone able to ask him the question would know, it would be an evidence of refuting the Malachi 3:6 passage. God would change his mind about the moral precepts to govern people of the earth. In love. Love for one another and love for the Father.

And being he knew he was going to die so as to fulfill the prophecy and put an end to the ceremonial law of animal sacrifices for the covering of sins, how would it make sense that an omniscient God would reiterate the ten commandments as valid for eternal life still, and then in fulfilling the prophecy by dying on the altar as the last ceremonial sacrifice, renounce the ten he stated earlier were part of His covenant for eternal life?
What? Jesus was just kidding?

Oh, I said this in Matthew to the one that asked me, but when I died on the cross all that changed. Even though dying on the cross was the next step in bringing eternal life to people you can forget what I said about the ten (in Mathew) when I was asked about the commands that are needed to be followed for eternal life.

Jesus died as the ultimate sacrifice and act of love toward us. No greater love has a man than to lay his life down for his brothers.
Love is all of that which upholds and is reflected within and by the ten commandments.
God created us with 10 fingers
I guess Samuel chapter 21 verse 20
In still another battle, which took place at Gath, there was a huge man with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot--twenty-four in all. He also was descended from Rapha.
I guess that means he had 12 commandments.
Your trying to make nothing of the bible because it's not worded the way you want it to be.
Ephesians chapter 2 verses 14-19
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two. thus making peace and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently , you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household.
 
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VanillaSunflowers

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When one understands that Jesus is King and that his words are law, I think the question must become: where did Jesus state that the Sabbath was a part of the New Covenant.
When he answered the one in Matthew who asked what commands pertain to eternal life.

Before that the ceremonial law of blood sacrifice did not give eternal life , redemption, rebirth, renewal, to the sacrificer. It covered sins but it did not wash them away for all time.
 
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bugkiller

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In English we have over 500 translations of the bible. Think about this, after 499 versions where made someone came along and said I don't like how they are interpreted I think we need another one. But don't end the thought there, ask yourself this question: "can a language be translated properly without first explaining the meaning behind the construct of a word"? For example, if one has never seen snow, or felt it, can they have an idea of what it is? The word translated fulfill actually comes from a Greek word that has absolutely no similarities to our English word fulfill. In other words that word fulfill in Matthew 5:17 doesn't even closely resemble the Greek word used.

So here is the Greek word translated fulfil:

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up...

Now in order to understand the meaning of the word translated fulfil let's look at the root word it is derived from(G4134):

G4134
πλήρης
plērēs
play'-race
From G4130; replete, or covered over...

Now we don't really use the word replete much, actually I had to get my dictionary out and look up the word. Here is what Webster's stated:
Replete
Webster's 1913 Dictionary
Re`plete´ Pronunciation: r?-pl?t´
a. 1. Filled again; completely filled; full; charged; abounding.

Now this Greek word comes from G4130

G4130
πλήθω
plēthō
play'-tho, pleh'-o,
A prolonged form of a primary word πλέω pleō (which appears only as an alternate in certain tenses and in the reduplicated form of πίμπλημι pimplēmi to “fill”


So we see that the word actually means to fill something up, like a barrel with dirt, or a cup with water. But it is not the act of filling, but rather it is to level something up to the top. Why is this important? Because most people say Jesus came to complete the law, but actually Jesus came to raise the standards of Righteousness.

Here is the Greek text and the Greek text with Strong's numbering:
(GNT-TR) μη νομισητε οτι ηλθον καταλυσαι τον νομον η τους προφητας ουκ ηλθον καταλυσαι αλλα πληρωσαι

(GNT-TR+) μηG3361 PRT-N νομισητεG3543 V-AAS-2P οτιG3754 CONJ ηλθονG2064 V-2AAI-1S καταλυσαιG2647 V-AAN τονG3588 T-ASM νομονG3551 N-ASM ηG2228 PRT τουςG3588 T-APM προφηταςG4396 N-APM ουκG3756 PRT-N ηλθονG2064 V-2AAI-1S καταλυσαιG2647 V-AAN αλλαG235 CONJ πληρωσαιG4137 V-AAN


Now if we look at this text in Matthew 5:17 and break it down word by word, we have it reading something like this: "Don't think I came to free you from the (moral) grazing pasture (Law: this is not a reference only to the law given by Moses, but rather the obligation of men to live right) and the foretellers (Prophet's), no instead of setting you free (I came to) fill-up (raise the standards)."

Now if we continue to read on in English, from Matthew 5:17, it makes perfect sense:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (Jesus's law), till all be (scratch out this word added by the translators "fulfilled: it is not in the Greek").

Jesus was referring to the raised Law he was about to proclaim...

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

See how he raised the standards!

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Again He RAISES the standards!

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

And Yet AGAIN!


Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Jesus did not come to complete the old, he came to established the New Terms of a Totally New Covenant: the Old standards were to low and now that Jesus was going to reveal how to live right, by forgiveness and loving your enemies, a true change of Heart could be embraced, and the impediment could now be removed from man: by men repenting (turning) from the hatred in their hearts to receiving God's mercy by showing mercy and thus they could obtain hearts of flesh instead of stone.

Blessings
We both used our selected definitions of the word in question. I don't refuse your selection. I do question
why you choose not to use the one I presented. I do not think yours makes the Bible agree with itself. Webster define replete as complete. I think my presentation is irrefutable.

Then its simply amazing that you indicate Jesus did in fact change the law.

I also find it simply amazing you seem to disbelieve LK 24:44.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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The New Covenant was spoken By Jesus and it began once he was baptised and the dove came down upon him, although he didn't start to proclaim the terms until after he came out of the wilderness. His sacrifice (death on the cross) was the blood of the covenant, ratifying it: but the covenant itself exists in Jesus words.

I often tell people: telling someone what not to do doesn't help them know what to do; Jesus' teachings show us how to live unlike the 10 Commandments, which is the covenant Moses gave the children of Israel.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The Ceremonial parts of the law are spiritually fulfilled in Christ and point to spiritual truths found in Christ.

Most of the stuff I have heard in Churches about the framework of Christianity I have found to be false and it has taken many years for me to have the framework corrected.

Blessings
In the same boat with you. I get disfellowshiped as a trouble maker for disagreeing with the preacher and key players who sometimes have not read the entire Bible.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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If that were true people here would not try to argue what amounts to, Jesus never actually said what appears in Matthew when he was asked, being his mission was to deliver the covenant of eternal life, what one must do in order to achieve eternal life. And Jesus reiterated the ten commands.

People attempting to say the equivalent of , no Jesus didn't actually mean that, are the issue.
NOPE!!!!!

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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:honeypot:
Looks like the 10 commandments aren't done away with after all :ebil:

Matthew 22:36-40 NLT


The whole "Old Testament" is based on loving God and loving your neighbor. This includes the 10 commandments. I believe what the Messiah said:clap:
Can one get into heaven by keeping the law (10 CS)? NOPE!!!! Jn 14:6

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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I haven't even begin to intimate at my understanding, and I haven't tried to scrutinize your understanding yet.

I am still waiting for a bible verse in which Christ/God Himself specifically states the 10 commandments are done away with.

I still haven't seen that yet, just lots of interpretation of one or to verses humans have said in the bible.

And let's get this to understanding: I respect the prophets and patriarchs. But, if they tell me that God said something contrary to His actual word, I can't believe them.

We were all warned about this in the NT; we are warned to test all doctrine even if it comes from a "trusted" source like disciples. Moreover, anyone who teaches contrary to God's word faces serious charges.

I am not going to stop following the 10 commandments just because Paul or Peter told me to - especially when Christ never told me to stop. But if you can show me where Christ, or God has done away with the 10 commandments, I am a ears.
You will not accept it.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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So, Jesus wasn't serious when asked what commands one must follow in order to have eternal life. Is that your belief?
Jesus was just giving a fool his required answer. You should note a few things about the exchange - Jesus did not condemn the man and yet he left sorrowfully. Then you should ask why although with your knowledge of the Bible you will not understand.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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That does nothing to prove Jesus stated the ten commandments are done away. Especially when he reiterated them as being in force in Matthew.

Are you familiar with the Midrash? It tells us that the reason God created us with 10 fingers is so that whenever we look at our hands we might constantly be reminded of the ten truths God delivered to Moshe on Sinai.

Until someone posts the scripture wherein Jesus revokes what he stated in Matthew, there is no scripture that says the ten are done away. Jesus and the Father were one. John 10:30. What is being argued by some is that Jesus would overturn his own commands that he reiterated as valid in Matthew. When he answered what command was required to find eternal life, and Jesus reiterated to the one that portion of the ten that anyone able to ask him the question would know, it would be an evidence of refuting the Malachi 3:6 passage. God would change his mind about the moral precepts to govern people of the earth. In love. Love for one another and love for the Father.

And being he knew he was going to die so as to fulfill the prophecy and put an end to the ceremonial law of animal sacrifices for the covering of sins, how would it make sense that an omniscient God would reiterate the ten commandments as valid for eternal life still, and then in fulfilling the prophecy by dying on the altar as the last ceremonial sacrifice, renounce the ten he stated earlier were part of His covenant for eternal life?
What? Jesus was just kidding?

Oh, I said this in Matthew to the one that asked me, but when I died on the cross all that changed. Even though dying on the cross was the next step in bringing eternal life to people you can forget what I said about the ten (in Mathew) when I was asked about the commands that are needed to be followed for eternal life.

Jesus died as the ultimate sacrifice and act of love toward us. No greater love has a man than to lay his life down for his brothers.
Love is all of that which upholds and is reflected within and by the ten commandments.
You will not believe them as they have been posted.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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ok. you prove you do not understand the law of God! :sigh:

the bible talks of "fleshly commandments" and the bible talks of:


Psalms 111:7-8(NKJV)
7 The works of His hands are verity and justice; All His precepts are sure.
8 They stand fast forever and ever, And are done in truth and uprightness.

now, what of the law is temporary and what of the law is forever? (hint: see rom 7:14 before you answer! :oldthumbsup:)

btw, what is a "fleshly commandment"? (let's see where you are!!)
the law of Moses as issued and written by the finger of God.

bugkiller
 
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tatteredsoul

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You will not accept it.

bugkiller

You can't say that; it had not been provided yet that Christ said the 10 commandments were done away with.


It is very simple: show where God or Christ said the OP.

You say I won't accept it, but you haven't even provided anything remotely close to Christ saying the OP - NOT to mention it contradicts His own Word.
 
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tatteredsoul

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the law of Moses as issued and written by the finger of God.

bugkiller


It isn't the law of Moses. Pepole need to stop saying that. It is the unfounded Law of God - anything that begins with, "and the Lord God said..."

Moses delivered some of it, but the first five books are not the "word of Moses."
 
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tatteredsoul

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You will not accept anything we say or refer you to. NTL I heartily recommend reading the Gospel o fJohn.

bugkiller


All ANYONE has to do is show me a direct quote from Christ telling us that the 10 commandments are done away with. It is very simple.

Your frustration may come from the fact that Christ NEVER says this, and that I won't accept interpretations by a man - further interpreted to fit the OP. True, I won't accept that. I have been very transparent about what I was asking for, and it has been IGNORED, because people continued to post quotes from other humans attempting to speak on behalf of Christ.

It is very simple what I have been asking for thus entire thread; why can't you accept the request - and provide what was asked for?

This OP is dangerous doctrine, so you are absolutely right I am not risking my soul on the interpretation of a man.
 
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2 know him

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We both used our selected definitions of the word in question. I don't refuse your selection. I do question
why you choose not to use the one I presented. I do not think yours makes the Bible agree with itself. Webster define replete as complete. I think my presentation is irrefutable.

Then its simply amazing that you indicate Jesus did in fact change the law.

I also find it simply amazing you seem to disbelieve LK 24:44.

bugkiller

I may be wrong but I don't think the word "complete" can properly represent the Greek word in question. I intend on researching the use of the word more thoroughly later, but I don't have time right now. I believe the concept behind the word is to level up something and I intend on seeing if there is a Greek word regularly used in the gospels that means to complete as in to finnish something, actually if Jesus uses the same Greek word when he states it is finished. Regarding his work on earth and his sacrifice then I will comceed that your use of the word can also properly represent Jesus in the text.

So I just looked up words that mean complete and I now don't believe you are correct. Take a look at the Strong's numbers 3973 and 4931,5055/5056. Looking at 5055 it is most likely the word Jesus would have used if he meant to use the word "complete" the way that you are representing it. the reason I say that is: if you do a study of that word 5055 you see that it would exactly represent what you're trying to say Jesus meant and it is used by Jesus to make the representation that you are trying to have that word mean in this case.

I'm certain that Jesus actually meant that he came to raise the standard of righteousness as in to fill up a cup to the brim.

Moses did not fill up the cup, he left the cup half empty and really left it empty: because he never showed us how to do the things that were expected of us; he didn't show us that in order to live right before God you had to have a right heart and that in order to have a right heart you had to practice Mercy compassion forgiveness and Grace. Jesus showed us how to fulfill righteousness through the practices that he lays down, of loving your enemies, not laying up your Treasures on this Earth, forgiveness, Etc. Jesus shows us the law and says: here is what was written in the law but here is my higher standard of righteousness, the law is not enough, thelaws is insufficient, my teachings are the fullness of righteousness and he raises the standards. not only that, he points to the Pharisees and says: their standards of righteousness will not get you into heaven, did they fulfill Moses's words? yes, but it wasn't enough without having a heart to match the expectations of righteousness. Our actions are meaningless without the right emotions behind them. God looks at the heart, your emotions are the truth of the state of your heart; do you love your enemies? if you don't love them, the word love in the Hebrew comes from a word that means affection, if you don't have affection for your enemies: your heart isn't right and your sacrifice is not acceptable to God. God looks at our hearts, our emotions are the truth of the state of our heart, our emotions must match our actions, it's not the actions God wants, it's the heart; the heart must be right in order for the actions to be acceptable. when Cain and Abel offered sacrifices, why did God not accept Cain's sacrifice? it was because the state of his heart didn't match his actions and when God did not accept his sacrifice Cain was upset and was jealous because his brother's sacrifice was accepted and his bad emotions cause him to kill his brother; but God already saw his heart and that was why his sacrifice wasn't accepted.

The don'ts of the Ten Commandments do absolutely nothing to help you know how to do what you need to: in order to be insulated and kept from violating the good. As has already been said Moses gave absolutely nothing to the Gentile Christian and truth be known he did absolutely no good to help the children of Israel be and maintain righteousness: all this is found in Christ and Christ alone and by this I mean in his teachings.
 
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