The 10 Commandments are done away!

[bugkiller]

So you agree He fulfills some of the laws?





Are there "moral" laws outside of the ten?



Why do you equate the law with the ten here? The two greatest commandments were in the law, but not in the ten.

Good question.

bugkiller

 

[tatteredsoul]

And yet you seem to believe the testimony of Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah - mere men. Why?

bugkiller

1. There are specific claims that God said something in those books; I believe, "And the LORD God said..." first. But also, those "men" did not die for speaking for God.

2. Those books have traceable ancestral and physical history. The history was past down long after Moses.

3. None of them claimed God said that the 10 commandments were done away with, or that God would ever remove an entire set of statues He set up Himself as a standard.


Believing men's testimony is a matter of faith too. So, that isn't the issue. The issue is showing where Christ, or God would have said that the 10 commandments are done away with. It has to be from them directly, because only they have the authority to amend or add law.

 

[Bob S]

I have been going over some of the posts and would like to know when you believe the New Covenant actually started.

I would like to know how the old covenant laws concerning sacrificial offerings has been fulfilled if it will not happen until Heaven and Earth pass? How about all the laws concerning Temple worship, are they still relevant because Heaven and Earth has not passed away?

Why would Jesus tell the Jews that the 10 commandments were void when the New Covenant had not been ratified as of that time?

Why do you believe the 10 Commandments were about love when the word love is not used in any of the 10?

Someone ask if the 10 Commandments are all of the moral laws, if someone answered I didn't see where.

Nine of the 10Cs were about moral issues, one was about a ritual issue. Are Christians obligated to observe ritual laws that concerned only Israel?

Where in the New Testament does Jesus ask Gentiles to observe Sabbath?

 

[2 know him]

So far you have done nothing to refute Lk 24:44 except make some wild claim. The Greek will bear what I said as true. There are some version that leave out the last 2 words of the verse and for a reason - to deceive anyone who wants to be deceived.No sir the OC was not extended/revised or amended, it was replaced as promised and testified to by Jesus the Christ, only begotten Son of God. God is His Father and as such Jesus is God (the Son).You're simply amazing. Are you reading anything you post?You really think this makes your above point valid? The interaction of Jesus was with a gentile it was noted. Otherwise it was with an Israelite.NOPE!!!!!No because of LK 24:44.It also means - to render full, i.e. to complete Jesus said He did this in LK 24:44.This is where the Holy Spirit comes in. The bible is not written for the unbeliever. It should be noted I did not say the unregenerate.

bugkiller

In English we have over 500 translations of the bible. Think about this, after 499 versions where made someone came along and said I don't like how they are interpreted I think we need another one. But don't end the thought there, ask yourself this question: "can a language be translated properly without first explaining the meaning behind the construct of a word"? For example, if one has never seen snow, or felt it, can they have an idea of what it is? The word translated fulfill actually comes from a Greek word that has absolutely no similarities to our English word fulfill. In other words that word fulfill in Matthew 5:17 doesn't even closely resemble the Greek word used.

So here is the Greek word translated fulfil:

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up...

Now in order to understand the meaning of the word translated fulfil let's look at the root word it is derived from(G4134):

G4134
πλήρης
plērēs
play'-race
From G4130; replete, or covered over...

Now we don't really use the word replete much, actually I had to get my dictionary out and look up the word. Here is what Webster's stated:
Replete
Webster's 1913 Dictionary
Re`plete´ Pronunciation: r?-pl?t´
a. 1. Filled again; completely filled; full; charged; abounding.

Now this Greek word comes from G4130

G4130
πλήθω
plēthō
play'-tho, pleh'-o,
A prolonged form of a primary word πλέω pleō (which appears only as an alternate in certain tenses and in the reduplicated form of πίμπλημι pimplēmi to “fill”


So we see that the word actually means to fill something up, like a barrel with dirt, or a cup with water. But it is not the act of filling, but rather it is to level something up to the top. Why is this important? Because most people say Jesus came to complete the law, but actually Jesus came to raise the standards of Righteousness.

Here is the Greek text and the Greek text with Strong's numbering:
(GNT-TR) μη νομισητε οτι ηλθον καταλυσαι τον νομον η τους προφητας ουκ ηλθον καταλυσαι αλλα πληρωσαι

(GNT-TR+) μηG3361 PRT-N νομισητεG3543 V-AAS-2P οτιG3754 CONJ ηλθονG2064 V-2AAI-1S καταλυσαιG2647 V-AAN τονG3588 T-ASM νομονG3551 N-ASM ηG2228 PRT τουςG3588 T-APM προφηταςG4396 N-APM ουκG3756 PRT-N ηλθονG2064 V-2AAI-1S καταλυσαιG2647 V-AAN αλλαG235 CONJ πληρωσαιG4137 V-AAN


Now if we look at this text in Matthew 5:17 and break it down word by word, we have it reading something like this: "Don't think I came to free you from the (moral) grazing pasture (Law: this is not a reference only to the law given by Moses, but rather the obligation of men to live right) and the foretellers (Prophet's), no instead of setting you free (I came to) fill-up (raise the standards)."

Now if we continue to read on in English, from Matthew 5:17, it makes perfect sense:

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law (Jesus's law), till all be (scratch out this word added by the translators "fulfilled: it is not in the Greek").

Jesus was referring to the raised Law he was about to proclaim...

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

See how he raised the standards!

Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Again He RAISES the standards!

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

And Yet AGAIN!

Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Mat 5:40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
Mat 5:41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Mat 5:42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


Jesus did not come to complete the old, he came to established the New Terms of a Totally New Covenant: the Old standards were to low and now that Jesus was going to reveal how to live right, by forgiveness and loving your enemies, a true change of Heart could be embraced, and the impediment could now be removed from man: by men repenting (turning) from the hatred in their hearts to receiving God's mercy by showing mercy and thus they could obtain hearts of flesh instead of stone.

Blessings

 

[2 know him]

I have been going over some of the posts and would like to know when you believe the New Covenant actually started.

I would like to know how the old covenant laws concerning sacrificial offerings has been fulfilled if it will not happen until Heaven and Earth pass? How about all the laws concerning Temple worship, are they still relevant because Heaven and Earth has not passed away?

Why would Jesus tell the Jews that the 10 commandments were void when the New Covenant had not been ratified as of that time?

Why do you believe the 10 Commandments were about love when the word love is not used in any of the 10?

Someone ask if the 10 Commandments are all of the moral laws, if someone answered I didn't see where.

Nine of the 10Cs were about moral issues, one was about a ritual issue. Are Christians obligated to observe ritual laws that concerned only Israel?

Where in the New Testament does Jesus ask Gentiles to observe Sabbath?

The New Covenant was spoken By Jesus and it began once he was baptised and the dove came down upon him, although he didn't start to proclaim the terms until after he came out of the wilderness. His sacrifice (death on the cross) was the blood of the covenant, ratifying it: but the covenant itself exists in Jesus words.

I often tell people: telling someone what not to do doesn't help them know what to do; Jesus' teachings show us how to live unlike the 10 Commandments, which is the covenant Moses gave the children of Israel.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The Ceremonial parts of the law are spiritually fulfilled in Christ and point to spiritual truths found in Christ.

Most of the stuff I have heard in Churches about the framework of Christianity I have found to be false and it has taken many years for me to have the framework corrected.

Blessings

 

[Bob S]

The New Covenant was spoken By Jesus and it began once he was baptised and the dove came down upon him, although he didn't start to proclaim the terms until after he came out of the wilderness. His sacrifice (death on the cross) was the blood of the covenant, ratifying it: but the covenant itself exists in Jesus words.

I often tell people: telling someone what not to do doesn't help them know what to do; Jesus' teachings show us how to live unlike the 10 Commandments, which is the covenant Moses gave the children of Israel.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

The Ceremonial parts of the law are spiritually fulfilled in Christ and point to spiritual truths found in Christ.

Most of the stuff I have heard in Churches about the framework of Christianity I have found to be false and it has taken many years for me to have the framework corrected.

Blessings

Thanks TKH, It is amazing that some would go to the extent to deny that we are serving God in New Covenant terms. They try to argue that the old covenant is still in effect yet they will not recognize most all of it. It took the Blood of Jesus to ratify the New Covenant. I guess they think Jesus will once again have to die for them.

 

[disciple1]

I don't accept Paul over God.

If Paul said Roses are blue, and God says they are red, I am going with God.

So I asked for information specifically from Christ or God only, because of man's fallibility.


It doesn't mean I don't believe in Christianity and the Word. All I have been asking for is a specific quote from Christ, or God that says the 10 commandments are done away with, and we no longer have to follow them.

The responses have either been quotes from men describing the position of Christ, or interpretations. I am asking for where the OP is said directly from God, or Christ.


What is there to say? Show me a quote from Christ Himself specifically telling us the 10 commandments are done away with, and no longer tk be followed. I don't want to hear from other people; the seriousness of the issue demands the Authority on Law - it needs to be from Christ, or God.


If you cannot show me direct quote/saying from Christ, why would I listen to any man? In other words, why would I listen to the OP, when Christ said something different?

I have told you, and others several times what I am asking for. I have not seen it yet.

John chapter 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And speaking of Jesus in verse 14

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[tatteredsoul]

John chapter 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And speaking of Jesus in verse 14

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Ok. So where does John say Christ said that the 10 commandments are done away with?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Why do you believe the 10 Commandments were about love when the word love is not used in any of the 10?

you just prove you don't understand God's law!

the question is why don't you?

Romans 13:8-10(NKJV)
8Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Jesus says that the weightier matters of the law are justice, mercy, and faith - mark 23:23.

but you probably don't believe that either because you don't see the "words" in the commandments!

one day all will recognize that God's law expresses His way - isaiah 2:3!

 

[disciple1]

Ok. So where does John say Christ said that the 10 commandments are done away with?

Mark chapter 4 verse 12
so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
You can't make the bible say what you want, it says what it says.

 

[2 know him]

Ok. So where does John say Christ said that the 10 commandments are done away with?

Okay as mentioned before the law (old covenant) and the prophets were until John and since that time the kingdom of God is being preached. How do you not understand that the kingdom of God and the law of the Old Covenant are not the same since one is until John? How can you not see what Jesus is clearly saying? Isn't it because you have set your beliefs up and they contradict Jesus's?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Okay as mentioned before the law (old covenant) and the prophets were until John and since that time the kingdom of God is being preached. How do you not understand that the kingdom of God and the law of the Old Covenant are not the same since one is until John? How can you not see what Jesus is clearly saying? Isn't it because you have set your beliefs up and they contradict Jesus's?

how can you not understand that the kingdom to come will have law - isaiah 2-3!

name a kingdom that didn't have laws!

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Mark chapter 4 verse 12
so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
You can't make the bible say what you want, it says what it says.

If that were true people here would not try to argue what amounts to, Jesus never actually said what appears in Matthew when he was asked, being his mission was to deliver the covenant of eternal life, what one must do in order to achieve eternal life. And Jesus reiterated the ten commands.

People attempting to say the equivalent of , no Jesus didn't actually mean that, are the issue.

 

[Dkh587]

you just prove you don't understand God's law!

the question is why don't you?

Romans 13:8-10(NKJV)
8Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Jesus says that the weightier matters of the law are justice, mercy, and faith - mark 23:23.

but you probably don't believe that either because you don't see the "words" in the commandments!

one day all will recognize that God's law expresses His way - isaiah 2:3!

Looks like the 10 commandments aren't done away with after all

Matthew 22:36-40 NLT

Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses?

Yahushua replied, ‘You must love YAH your Elohim with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.

The whole "Old Testament" is based on loving God and loving your neighbor. This includes the 10 commandments. I believe what the Messiah said

 

[tatteredsoul]

Mark chapter 4 verse 12
so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
You can't make the bible say what you want, it says what it says.

Right. It doesn't say the 10 commandments are done away with. The OP did.

 

[tatteredsoul]

Okay as mentioned before the law (old covenant) and the prophets were until John and since that time the kingdom of God is being preached. How do you not understand that the kingdom of God and the law of the Old Covenant are not the same since one is until John? How can you not see what Jesus is clearly saying? Isn't it because you have set your beliefs up and they contradict Jesus's?

I haven't even begin to intimate at my understanding, and I haven't tried to scrutinize your understanding yet.

I am still waiting for a bible verse in which Christ/God Himself specifically states the 10 commandments are done away with.

I still haven't seen that yet, just lots of interpretation of one or to verses humans have said in the bible.

And let's get this to understanding: I respect the prophets and patriarchs. But, if they tell me that God said something contrary to His actual word, I can't believe them.

We were all warned about this in the NT; we are warned to test all doctrine even if it comes from a "trusted" source like disciples. Moreover, anyone who teaches contrary to God's word faces serious charges.

I am not going to stop following the 10 commandments just because Paul or Peter told me to - especially when Christ never told me to stop. But if you can show me where Christ, or God has done away with the 10 commandments, I am a ears.

 

[disciple1]

how can you not understand that the kingdom to come will have law - isaiah 2-3!

name a kingdom that didn't have laws!

Hebrews chapter 10 verse 1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Romans chapter 10 verse 4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Galatians chapter 5 verse 6
The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love.
If faith doesn't express itself in love it's of no value.

So, Jesus wasn't serious when asked what commands one must follow in order to have eternal life. Is that your belief?

 

[disciple1]

So, Jesus wasn't serious when asked what commands one must follow in order to have eternal life. Is that your belief?

The bible says a lot of things, so it's hard to understand, and I could be wrong in what I say, but I think there's a lot more chance of you being wrong.
1 Peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Jeremiah chapter 22
16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?”
declares the Lord.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

The bible says a lot of things, so it's hard to understand, and I could be wrong in what I say, but I think there's a lot more chance of you being wrong.
1 Peter chapter 4
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.
Jeremiah chapter 22
16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?”
declares the Lord.

That does nothing to prove Jesus stated the ten commandments are done away. Especially when he reiterated them as being in force in Matthew.

Are you familiar with the Midrash? It tells us that the reason God created us with 10 fingers is so that whenever we look at our hands we might constantly be reminded of the ten truths God delivered to Moshe on Sinai.

Until someone posts the scripture wherein Jesus revokes what he stated in Matthew, there is no scripture that says the ten are done away. Jesus and the Father were one. John 10:30. What is being argued by some is that Jesus would overturn his own commands that he reiterated as valid in Matthew. When he answered what command was required to find eternal life, and Jesus reiterated to the one that portion of the ten that anyone able to ask him the question would know, it would be an evidence of refuting the Malachi 3:6 passage. God would change his mind about the moral precepts to govern people of the earth. In love. Love for one another and love for the Father.

And being he knew he was going to die so as to fulfill the prophecy and put an end to the ceremonial law of animal sacrifices for the covering of sins, how would it make sense that an omniscient God would reiterate the ten commandments as valid for eternal life still, and then in fulfilling the prophecy by dying on the altar as the last ceremonial sacrifice, renounce the ten he stated earlier were part of His covenant for eternal life?
What? Jesus was just kidding?

Oh, I said this in Matthew to the one that asked me, but when I died on the cross all that changed. Even though dying on the cross was the next step in bringing eternal life to people you can forget what I said about the ten (in Mathew) when I was asked about the commands that are needed to be followed for eternal life.

Jesus died as the ultimate sacrifice and act of love toward us. No greater love has a man than to lay his life down for his brothers.
Love is all of that which upholds and is reflected within and by the ten commandments.