~That which is perfect~

[papaJP]

What evidence do you want as on May 3, 1994 I died and was dead for over 13 hours. My wife went into the hospital room and ran the doctors and nurses out. She said to them it is time to go to the highest power God. She prayed to God and said if you are going to take him do so now do not let us continue to suffer. If you will I need him so turn off all the machines and restore him to me.
She opened the doors and walked out and the machines stopped working and I came back to consciousness. I walked out of the hospital 3 days later on Wednesday and on Saturday I was back in school studing what would eventually become a graduate degree in theology and schripture. During the last 20 years I have been allowed by God to be a part of 16 miracle healings including limbs growing and wounds and broken bones being healed immediately.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Geneva Bible Notes:
(1) The fourth argument mixed with the former, and it is twofold. If the Law is to be joined with faith, this were not to go forward, but backward, seeing that those spiritual gifts which were bestowed upon you are more excellent than any that could proceed from yourselves. And moreover, it would follow, that the Law is better than Christ, because it would perfect and bring complete that which Christ alone began.​

(2) By the "flesh" he means the ceremonies of the Law, against which he sets the Spirit, that is, the spiritual working of the Gospel.

Hope this helps.

 

[Frogster]

yes frog.
we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
miracles were worked then, and miracles are worked today.

what were they THEN? what are they now?

EVIDENCE PLEASE.

please show me someone raised from the dead today, or healed by passing through your shadow.
anyways, pm me if you have evidence.
over here.
love coJ

no no..there are all kinds of documentation of healings, and jerks too sadly...

BUT.. I am asking you to show how the Spirit, and the gifts manifested, as per the Spirit, given in Abe, are not for today? Is the Cov for today? Show me how you separate it? Gotta gimmie scripture, to refute the scripture I posted please.

 

[ARBITER01]

What evidence do you want as on May 3, 1994 I died and was dead for over 13 hours. My wife went into the hospital room and ran the doctors and nurses out. She said to them it is time to go to the highest power God. She prayed to God and said if you are going to take him do so now do not let us continue to suffer. If you will I need him so turn off all the machines and restore him to me.
She opened the doors and walked out and the machines stopped working and I came back to consciousness. I walked out of the hospital 3 days later on Wednesday and on Saturday I was back in school studing what would eventually become a graduate degree in theology and schripture. During the last 20 years I have been allowed by God to be a part of 16 miracle healings including limbs growing and wounds and broken bones being healed immediately.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Geneva Bible Notes:
(1) The fourth argument mixed with the former, and it is twofold. If the Law is to be joined with faith, this were not to go forward, but backward, seeing that those spiritual gifts which were bestowed upon you are more excellent than any that could proceed from yourselves. And moreover, it would follow, that the Law is better than Christ, because it would perfect and bring complete that which Christ alone began.​

(2) By the "flesh" he means the ceremonies of the Law, against which he sets the Spirit, that is, the spiritual working of the Gospel.

Hope this helps.

Yep,... GOD raising the dead through a Christian, He has not changed.

Good testimony!

 

[Frogster]

What evidence do you want as on May 3, 1994 I died and was dead for over 13 hours. My wife went into the hospital room and ran the doctors and nurses out. She said to them it is time to go to the highest power God. She prayed to God and said if you are going to take him do so now do not let us continue to suffer. If you will I need him so turn off all the machines and restore him to me.
She opened the doors and walked out and the machines stopped working and I came back to consciousness. I walked out of the hospital 3 days later on Wednesday and on Saturday I was back in school studing what would eventually become a graduate degree in theology and schripture. During the last 20 years I have been allowed by God to be a part of 16 miracle healings including limbs growing and wounds and broken bones being healed immediately.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Geneva Bible Notes:
(1) The fourth argument mixed with the former, and it is twofold. If the Law is to be joined with faith, this were not to go forward, but backward, seeing that those spiritual gifts which were bestowed upon you are more excellent than any that could proceed from yourselves. And moreover, it would follow, that the Law is better than Christ, because it would perfect and bring complete that which Christ alone began.​

(2) By the "flesh" he means the ceremonies of the Law, against which he sets the Spirit, that is, the spiritual working of the Gospel.

Hope this helps.

Why does Impact, teach tithing?

 

[SeekingTheKingdom]

The perfect is not the Bible.

The scriptures do not exhault themselves. but testify of Jesus.

The perfect is Jesus. Its pretty simple.


HOWEVER, Name it and claim it, Word of Faith people, Need to be VERRY Carefull of who they put there FAITH in...Non Christians can heal to...Indian gurus can heal also ...just by speaking


Look into Kundalini, "Coiled Energy" its serpent power...Look into it...it has infiltrated Christianity...and its PRURE evil.

The Spirit CAN manifest When GOD wants it to...GOD is not a showman...he is not a Big Spectacle, and neither is his spirit. Jesus Bless you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Is not referring -to the Bible.

I decided to get right back to the OP of the thread so that I could understand what this thread is all about. It seems that some have hijacked the thread and taken it in directions that Sunlover might not have intended it to go.

I have seen to-ing and fro-ing of personal comments and ridiculing of the Charismatic movement that have violated the forum rules, and it is probably only because Sunlover is a gracious person that she has not reported some posts in compliance with the rule that noone should be belittling anyone else's faith. I was reported twice for merely repeating what John Calvin said about the RCC of his time, and was rarked up for it. Yet I am seeing worse against the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement and yet these posts go unreported. Would that be due to the Christian and graciousness of Charismatic believers that they are reluctant to press the nuke button without giving these belittlers a run for their money?

Oh, consistency, thou art a jewel!

The perfect which is to come is actually the true church of Christ, the bride of Christ which will be revealed at the Second Coming of Christ. This is the new Jerusalem, the new Temple of God. Revelation tells us that on the final day, the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven. This is not the literal city of Jerusalem, but it will be the revelation of the bride of Christ, made up of all those who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour.

At the time of writing Corinthians, Paul had no conception that he was writing what was going to be part of the inspired canon of the New Testament. The canon of the NT was closed in AD70, and yet the gifts of the Spirit, including tongues continued for centuries after that time. The Latin church ceased operating the gifts in about two centuries, but the gifts continued right up to the 14th Century in the Greek Orthodox church, maybe not so much in their public meetings, but certainly in their monasteries. This is a fact of church history.

So, if the canon of the New Testament closed in AD70, when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed, signalling the physical end of the Old Covenant, then it could not have been the "perfect" because the gifts of tongues and prophecy were still going in the early church.

(Now there are some who hold that Revelation was written in AD90), but there has been further research that strongly suggests it was written as early as AD68. It all depends on when John was on the Island of Patmos, because that's where the book was written. But we know that Revelation was the last book of the NT canon and its completion closed the canon, and yet the gift of tongues was still widely practiced by the church at the time.)

John Calvin, in the late 1500s, acknowledges that the gift of tongues as practiced in 1 Corinthians 14, and his description is remarkably similar to the way Charismatics practice it today, was authentic. He says that the reason why the gift was withdrawn from the church was that people were using it for ostentatious public displays of spirituality, as, I am quite happy to acknowledge, some Pentecostals use it in these days. But because some people tend to misuse it, does not prove that speaking an unknown, unlearned language in faith, believing that God alone understands it, is unbiblical.

John Calvin (whether you believe in Calvinism or not), was one of the greatest theologians in church history outside of the church fathers. Luther started the Reformation, but Calvin formed it into a theological system. And Calvin's influence spread right through the reformed church throughout the world and was responsible for all the major revivals of that period, including the Puritan and Scottish revivals, the Methodist revival through Whitfield (Wesley was Arminian, but Whitfield was Calvinist), the Moravian revival which lasted 400 years, and more modern revivals such as the revivals in Wales and the USA in the late 19th Century. Calvin's influence can be seen in the revivals that accompanied Jonathan Edwards in the 18th Century, and his most famous sermon, "Sinners in the hand of an Angry God", that brought hundreds to Christ at one was firmly based on Calvin's teaching.

So if giants of faith like Calvin acknowledge that the gift of tongues is Biblical, then who am I to argue about that?

Also, the doctrine that the perfect which is to come is the canon of the NT was not known until sometime this century and has only come out because someone wanted to find some argument to try and counter the Pentecostal use of tongues and prophecy; so they decided to stretch an already well explained piece of Scripture to serve their purpose.

In actual fact, the church fathers, and all the reformers through the centuries have acknowledged that the perfect does relate to the revelation of the bride of Christ. I have been reading their works for the last 40 years so I think I should know... It is hard to successfully argue against historical truth.

 

[Rick Otto]

Seems to be some ambiguity in the definition:
1Cor14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
[2] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
[3] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
[4] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

(I don't know if self-edification is a good thing.}

but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
[5] I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Didn't he just say "no man understandeth?"

[6] Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
[7] And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
[8] For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
[9] So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
[10] There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
[11] Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me

(Not good)
.
[12] Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

[13] Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
[14] For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
[15] What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
[16] Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
[17] For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
[18] I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
[19] Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
[20] Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

(Understanding is evidently important.)

[21] In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
[22] Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
[23] If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

That's exactly what I thought when I first heard it. A whole church full of people loudly spouting gibberish. It struck me as an exercise in group self hypnosis. Mesmerization is a very real & powerful effect. It did seem like they were edyfying themselves, & it seemed like an ecstacy inducing drug, like they were squeezing dopamine out of their own brains.


[24] But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
[25] And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
[26] How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, everyone of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Rarely do I see the following instruction followed:

[27] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
[28] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

[29] Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
[30] If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
[31] For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
[32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
[34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
[36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
[37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
[38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
[39] Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
[40] Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[ARBITER01]

Didn't he just say "no man understandeth?"

That's correct, hence the need for the gift of interpretation. Tongues with interpretation then becomes equal to prophecy.

That's exactly what I thought when I first heard it. A whole church full of people loudly spouting gibberish. It struck me as an exercise in group self hypnosis. Mesmerization is a very real & powerful effect. It did seem like they were edyfying themselves, & it seemed like an ecstacy inducing drug, like they were squeezing dopamine out of their own brains.

Corinthian Christianity did not die out in Corinth. You can turn on TBN and probably find someone spout their prayer language out at the pulpit, when none of us are suppose to do that. The gift of tongues operates two-fold, by the will of the believer for personal edification, and by the will of The Holy Spirit for corporate edification, the later requiring the gift of interpretation.

Rarely do I see the following instruction followed:

Not every church is Spiritually mature in their adherence to Paul's teachings on this. There are plenty of people who operate in the giftings, but few churches that seek to be really correct in their operation in the service. I'm fortunate to have a Spirit-filled church nearby me that does operate them decently and in order, and when it is correct, there is a great Spiritually filling and freedom inside from them.

 

[sunlover1]

Seems to be some ambiguity in the definition:
1Cor14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
[2] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
[3] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
[4] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;

(I don't know if self-edification is a good thing.}

Hi Rick.
This seems to be very difficult to understand and tbh, I don't understand how
people like yourselves can even be a small bit open to this stuff.
Before I had the "event" happen, I wanted nothing to do with even the remote
possibility that someone might try that "gibberish" in my presence. It scared me
and I thought that it had to be "you know what".

Anyhow, after that three day fast and the "surprise" of the gift of tongues,
I 'changed my mind.

Said that to say this.
Edifying myself in the spirit is not only a good thing (build yourself up, in
your most holy faith...) but imo it's necessary to live this tough life. It's
not something i always remember to do but (and i may have already told
this story) We go to dinner with our bunch once a month. One night on the
way I decided to pray in tongues all the way (I crank up the stereo and look
out the side window, none's the wiser) so this particular dinner, rather than
the crude remarks about my body parts by one of the guys or the dirtly jokes
that everyone is so comfortable with except me, and gossip etc. we had
such a blessed evening of fellowship. It was truly like night and day.
(All Christians but one..2 RC, 3 RCA, 1 Atheist, 1 learning toward RCA,
1 charismatic .. and one non denom)

You could witness it here as well if i were to let you know each time i've
"built myself up" before walking in the door.. but I am guessing you can
figure that out all by yourself
Like two different people.
The me walking in the flesh
And the me walking in the spirit man.

Anyhow, that's how it works for me and perhaps that will make some
sense. Maybe not. Thought i would try. Be blessed

 

[Rick Otto]

It never had the effect of building me up in my faith & I was in that church for over a dozen years. It tried my faith more than built it up. It's just too weird for me. I don't feel like I need it. It's too easy to build my faith up a million different ways already.
I'm not denying the truth of your experience with it, but I don't like it, don't need it, don't want it, & don't appreciate when people can't appreciate that.
I don't realy desire anything supernatural. I'm realy happy with the natural, especially when all is well with it.
Enjoy it, but without me.

 

[sunlover1]

It never had the effect of building me up in my faith & I was in that church for over a dozen years. It tried my faith more than built it up. It's just too weird for me. I don't feel like I need it. It's too easy to build my faith up a million different ways already.
I'm not denying the truth of your experience with it, but I don't like it, don't need it, don't want it, & don't appreciate when people can't appreciate that.
I don't realy desire anything supernatural. I'm realy happy with the natural, especially when all is well with it.
Enjoy it, but without me.

Well yeah, no offense but you're not invited lol.
(I do it alone always)
I am way too shy (hard to believe? ) to step
out in a gathering with a word of tongues for
someone to interpret... Personally, i think that
there are 3 manifestations of the gift but i wont
go into that because i can sense that it sort of
creeps you out. And i can relate.
Tongues is not mandatory for sho.
Be blessed.

 

[ARBITER01]

It never had the effect of building me up in my faith & I was in that church for over a dozen years. It tried my faith more than built it up. It's just too weird for me. I don't feel like I need it. It's too easy to build my faith up a million different ways already.
I'm not denying the truth of your experience with it, but I don't like it, don't need it, don't want it, & don't appreciate when people can't appreciate that.
I don't realy desire anything supernatural. I'm realy happy with the natural, especially when all is well with it.
Enjoy it, but without me.

You're not going to find GOD forcing the giftings down your throat, nor should you see anyone of us doing that either.

In the same respect, I shouldn't find anyone badmouthing and insulting those of us who do operate in the giftings.

 

[sunlover1]

I guess that is the same with your unbiblical criticism of the way other Christians worship. When Paul went to Corinth, he was intent of knowing nothing with them except Christ and Him crucified. If more people had that attitude, we would not get all this nonsense and put downs of other Christians. In all my 44 years associated with Pentecostal and Charismatic churches I have never heard them criticise and put down other Christians to the extent that I have seen in this thread. They are just too busy worshiping and serving the Lord to engage in such nonsense..

Attending a church where the norm is to extend grace and mercy, is not commonplace.
At least in my own locale. Most people where i come from are very churched, but in
a very judging critical way somehow. Which is what I have been exposed to all of my
life.
I began attending this church 3 years ago and still to this day I am continually amazed
at the freedom in Christ and the love toward all of God's people.
You can mess up all you want at my church and someone will encourage you!

Makes it hard to want to come into such a jungle place as GT.. lol
But we come and bring our gift to perhaps bless someone...

And you have done just that!
Your posts are well written
and educational.
Thanks Oscarr!

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

So what happened to the 120 was that the Holy Spirit fell on them and they start speaking what they themselves would have heard as gibberish to their own ears. It would have been quite a new experience for them, but they knew that it was the Holy Spirit so they knew it was something good..

You made that up.

The same error is prevalent in the rest of your post.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

It never had the effect of building me up in my faith & I was in that church for over a dozen years. It tried my faith more than built it up. It's just too weird for me. I don't feel like I need it. It's too easy to build my faith up a million different ways already.
I'm not denying the truth of your experience with it, but I don't like it, don't need it, don't want it, & don't appreciate when people can't appreciate that.
I don't realy desire anything supernatural. I'm realy happy with the natural, especially when all is well with it.
Enjoy it, but without me.

Here, Here!

The 'more excellent way' of faith, hope, love and charity is not enough for some people. They prefer the 'childish things' that Paul so blatantly DISCOURAGED the Corinth church from practicing.

God Speed to you Rick Sir. << Grown up Christians.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Attending a church where the norm is to extend grace and mercy, is not commonplace.
At least in my own locale. Most people where i come from are very churched, but in
a very judging critical way somehow. Which is what I have been exposed to all of my
life.
I began attending this church 3 years ago and still to this day I am continually amazed
at the freedom in Christ and the love toward all of God's people.
You can mess up all you want at my church and someone will encourage you!

So no one to your knowledge does 'tongues' in church they just all say they do it in private yes?

 

[Giver]

So no one to your knowledge does 'tongues' in church they just all say they do it in private yes?

(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

(1 Corinthians 5:11-13) “What I wrote was that you should not associate with a brother Christian who is leading an immoral life, or is a usurer, or idolatrous, or a slanderer, or a drunkard or is dishonest; you should not even eat a meal with people like that. It is not my business to pass judgment on those outside. Of those who are inside, you can surely be the judges. But of those who are outside, God is the judge. You must drive out this evil-doer from among you.”

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

(1 John 2:27) “But you have not lost the anointing that he gave you, and you do not need anyone to teach you, the anointing he gave teaches you everything; you are anointed with truth, not a lie, and as it has taught you, so you must stay in him.”

Are you countering with this verse?

If so....explain please.

 

[Giver]

Are you countering with this verse?

If so....explain please.

From what Jesus has taught me, I can see that most people have let man teach him or her about God.

It is so sad, because people can never come to know God letting man teach them.

So many people believe because one goes and receives a degree in theology that they then are able to tell others what is right or wrong about what one believes about God. It becomes blind leading the blind.


(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

From what Jesus has taught me, I can see that most people have let man teach him or her about God.

It is so sad, because people can never come to know God letting man teach them.

So many people believe because one goes and receives a degree in theology that they then are able to tell others what is right or wrong about what one believes about God. It becomes blind leading the blind.

Totally agree.

I guarantee you that everyone who speaks 'tongues' didn't first do so spontaneously but saw someone do it first.

Led by men.