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~That which is perfect~

C

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Paul went on to say:

"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all..." (I Corinthians 14:18)

.

whether you agree with Doc's understanding "of that which is Perfect' or not, you are in error as well.

IF YOU KNOW PAUL'S CITIZENSHIP AND SCHOLARSHIP, HIS ABILITY TO SPEAK MULTIPLE LANGUAGES....you would know what he meant by this.

if you are trying to justify Glossolalia, please stop embarassing Christendom. if you practice this, you UNDOUBTEDLY have been influenced by Pentecostalism (NEW, MODERN, AN ABERRATION) or Charismania.
no one in orthodoxy accepts this nonsense.



Glossolalia is believed by many Christians to have come into the Christian experience in the 1st century on the day of Pentecost after the Crucifixion of Jesus when "... there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire,.." divided unto all of the individuals in the "upper room". They were said to speak in "other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance" (according to Acts, Ch. 2) (The book of Acts, written by the same author as the Gospel of Luke, is found in the New Testament immediately after the Gospel of John and is considered to be the story of the very early church). It should be noted, however, that Acts records that everyone in a nearby crowd was able to understand what the Apostles were saying at Pentecost, whereas glossolalia as usually practised today is unintelligible to everybody including the speaker (1 Cor 14:2; 14:13-18).

if you have the courage to do so, why not read the testimonies of those who have been delivered from this stuff? you'll find they BELIEVED IT TO BE BIBLICAL ALSO...until they discovered the truth.
 
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sunlover1

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whether you agree with Doc's understanding "of that which is Perfect' or not, you are in error as well.
What do YOU believe "That which is perfect" is in reference to?
 
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Dr.Strangelove

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Note what was said...We are CALLED to be perfect...none of us has achieved perfection yet, and will not until we are with Christ. Even John Wesley said his term, Christian Perfection, did not mean Christians are perfect...it's about having the ability to choose to not sin...something we didn't have before God saved us...

Spiritually, we all struggle, on a daily basis...we're faced with temptation...we go through personal trials...these things test our faith, cause doubt at times...sometimes we stumble and fall into sin...I'm sorry, but that is not perfect.

And especially, in regards to the verse in the OP...that which is perfect is the second coming of Christ, and the resurrection of believers...it's easy enough to figure out by keeping with the context of 1 Corinthians.

Your another one who just doesnt get the two levels of life. Flesh and spiritual. We struggle day to day with our fleshy sins AND YET we are spiritually perfected (done deal) and made clean and spotless by the blood of Christ.

You just dont believe scripture do you?

10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You say we are called to be perfect. Scripture says we've been perfected.

I choose to believe scripture, no offence.
 
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C

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Your another one who just doesnt get the two levels of life. Flesh and spiritual. We struggle day to day with our fleshy sins AND YET we are spiritually perfected (done deal) and made clean and spotless by the blood of Christ.

You just dont believe scripture do you?

10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

You say we are called to be perfect. Scripture says we've been perfected.

I choose to believe scripture, no offence.

then there's this:

Romans 8
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

or this:

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


PAST TENSE.
 
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sunlover1

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IF YOU KNOW PAUL'S CITIZENSHIP AND SCHOLARSHIP, HIS ABILITY TO SPEAK MULTIPLE LANGUAGES....you would know what he meant by this.
Not at all.
Paul is not speaking of "learned things" He is speaking of "Spiritual gifts"
This is clear from the get go.
Learning languages is no "Sign"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers

It should be noted, however, that Acts records that everyone in a nearby crowd was able to understand what the Apostles were saying at Pentecost, whereas glossolalia as usually practised today is unintelligible to everybody including the speaker (1 Cor 14:2; 14:13-18).
Exactly. Because this form of tongues is "speaking to God": (which is a 'good' thing)
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.
 
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sunlover1

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the Glorification.

but there are MANY references to perfect and perfection in Scripture....
No one is denying that. We're talking about a specific passage here.
Doc has been trying to counter so-called "gifts':
I know! Sad isn't it? Why would anyone want to counter what God says to desire?
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts,
especially the gift of prophecy


i've seen first-hand what people say are the "gifts"....blathering and rolling around and daring to say "Thus saith the Lord....",
Heh..And you wonder why ih8s8n is offended? We hear this constatntly,
Maybe one percent of Christianity does something off the wall and you use THIS
for your example
DISGRACEFUL.
Misrepresentation is also disgraceful.

Doc has been trying to emphasize FAITH IN GOD. but the Pentes and Charismaniacs will have none of it. they love the flesh.
I'm sure that's what you believe.
 
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Ih8s8n

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sunlover1 said:
Heh..And you wonder why ih8s8n is offended?

sunlover1: I do need to head out of state for several hours shortly, but I just wanted to note that I'm not the least bit "offended". Christians ought to be dead to themselves and alive for Christ. With such being the case, any "offense" on my part would only be self-centered. Anyhow, I'll dive back into this thread later this afternoon.

Take care.

P.S. I trust that you and others will note how Dr.Strangelove conveniently avoided all that I posted in my last response to him. His silence (read avoidance of uncomfortable truths) certainly is deafening.
 
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Dr.Strangelove

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Exactly. Because this form of tongues is "speaking to God": (which is a 'good' thing)
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.

Oh my goodness.....

The whole point is that if your gonna speak in church you need to speak to THE PEOPLE otherwise you don't edify ANYONE. If your publically speaking and no one understands you then only GOD KNOWS what yer saying. You know the phrase 'God knows'??? As in...NO-ONE KNOWS! Your not seaking to anyone. ITS NOT GOOD.

LOLZ! (**groan**)
 
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sunlover1

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sunlover1: I do need to head out of state for several hours shortly, but I just wanted to note that I'm not the least bit "offended". Christians ought to be dead to themselves and alive for Christ. With such being the case, any "offense" on my part would only be self-centered. Anyhow, I'll dive back into this thread later this afternoon.

Take care.
I am glad to hear you're not "offended" and you're right, I should have used a different word.
My goal was to cause others to see irony.
Thanks though for mentioning that because I LOVE IT!
It takes a lot to offend me as well (Unless you're dissing God or His
Word but that's a different story and a righteous anger)
Offense is a trap set by the enemy.
P.S. I trust that you and others will note how Dr.Strangelove conveniently avoided all that I posted in my last response to him. His silence (read avoidance of uncomfortable truths) certainly is deafening
Yes, silence always is on these threads.

What I would love to see though, is understanding and honest discussion.
I do tire of the unsheathing of swords against each other.
Makes NO sense

Be blessed and stay safe.
 
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sunlover1

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Oh my goodness.....
?
The whole point is that if your gonna speak in church you need to speak to THE PEOPLE otherwise you don't edify ANYONE.
Right. I know this... and it's obviously not some known language or you WOULD
be speaking to "the people"

If your publically speaking and no one understands you then only GOD KNOWS what yer saying. You know the phrase 'God knows'??? As in...NO-ONE KNOWS! Your not seaking to anyone.
I understand this. NO ONE knows... and this tells us it's not some known language.

ITS NOT GOOD.
Speaking to God IS good.
Speaking in tongues to God audibly where other's hear is what is not good here.
Because even though the tongue speaker blesses God and edifies himself..
he's not edifying the church.. And when we're at church we're to use our
gifts to edify each other.

He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself;
but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied:
for greater
is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues,
except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.


LOLZ! (**groan**)
 
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Dr.Strangelove

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P.S. I trust that you and others will note how Dr.Strangelove conveniently avoided all that I posted in my last response to him. His silence (read avoidance of uncomfortable truths) certainly is deafening.

Oh really>?

I missed out that post coz you ALREADY ADMITTED that we are perfected in Christ so whats the point in continuing when you already say that which is perfect has come?

Do you want me to address that post (#31) and completely crush it? You wanna have a drawn out battle with me? I'm a veteran at postal surgery. I'll go at it sentence by sentence if you want. Just say the word and I will with EASE.
 
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C

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Not at all.
Paul is not speaking of "learned things" He is speaking of "Spiritual gifts"
This is clear from the get go.
Learning languages is no "Sign"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers


Exactly. Because this form of tongues is "speaking to God": (which is a 'good' thing)
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.

Paul is not speaking of "learned things" He is speaking of "Spiritual gifts"
This is clear from the get go.

stop making stuff up to justify UNBIBLICAL activity.

Learning languages is no "Sign"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers

Pentecostals and Charismatics NEVER QUITE GET AROUND TO READING THE ENTIRE PASSAGE IN CONTEXT.

i know you won't believe it, because you have too much invested in your denomination (ever wonder why no other denominations do that stuff?)

ACTS 2 AT PENTECOST AFTER THE HOLY SPIRIT GAVE THE DISCIPLES THE MIRACULOUS ABILITY TO SPEAK IN LANGUAGES THEY HADN'T KNOWN PREVIOULY: WHY?

you already answered: are a sign,

AS A SIGN TO ALL THE JEWS FROM ALL OVER THE KNOWN WORLD WHO HAD COME TO JERUSALEM:


5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

WOW! HOW CAN IT BE THAT THESE UNLEARNED GALILAEANS CAN SUDDENLY SPEAK TO US IN OUR MANY MANY MANY LANGUAGES FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND EVEN IN OUR PARTICULAR DIALECTS?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

were the devout jews born speaking gibberish? is that why they understood? was that THE MIRACLE?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians,

we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


what did they hear spoken in THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGES?

THE WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD.

THE MYSTERIES OF GOD.

THE GOOD NEWS.

CHRIST.

Exactly. Because this form of tongues is "speaking to God": (which is a 'good' thing)

stop making things up to justify unbiblical practices.

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.

if the Holy Spirit gifted a disciple with the previously unlearned LANGUAGE OF CHINESE and he speaks Chinese in church AT CORINTH to SHOW OFF, he's not edifying anyone, but is understood by God.

but you wont' believe any of this anyways, because you have too much invested in your unbiblical practices.

if you have the courage, RESEARCH the Pentecostal Movement.


1 Corinthians 14:2

Barne's
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue - This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language. The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter, yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him.

But unto God - It is as if he spoke to God. No one could understand him but God. This must evidently refer to the addresses "in the church," when Christians only were present, or when those only were present who spoke the same language, and who were unacquainted with foreign tongues. Paul says that "there" that faculty would be valueless compared with the power of speaking in a manner that should edify the church. He did not undervalue the power of speaking foreign languages when foreigners were present, or when they went to preach to foreigners; see 1 Corinthians 14:22. It was only when it was needless, when all present spoke one language, that he speaks of it as of comparatively little value.


Gill's

for no man understandeth him: or "heareth him": that is, hears him, so as to understand him; he may hear a sound, but he cannot tell the meaning of it, and so it is of no use and advantage to him:
howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries; though under the influence and by the extraordinary gift of the Spirit he has, and to his own Spirit and understanding, and with great affection and devotion within himself, he speaks of the deep things of God, and the mysteries of his grace, the most glorious truths of the Gospel, yet the meaning of his voice and words not being known, he is a barbarian to them that hear him; and though what he delivers are truths of the greatest importance, they are a mere jargon to others, being unintelligible.

Matthew Henry
He goes on to show them how unprofitable the speaking of foreign languages is, and useless to the church; it is like piping in one tone, like sounding a trumpet without any certain note, like talking gibberish; whereas gifts should be used for the good of the church (v. 6-14).

He that spoke with tongues must wholly speak between God and himself; for, whatever mysteries might be communicated in his language, none of his own countrymen could understand them, because they did not understand the language, v. 2. Note, What cannot be understood can never edify. No advantage can be reaped from the most excellent discourses, if delivered in unintelligible language, such as the audience can neither speak nor understand: but he that prophesies speaks to the advantage of his hearers; they may profit by his gift

Note, It should be the concern of such as pray in public to pray intelligibly, not in a foreign language, nor in a language that, if it be not foreign, is above the level of his audience. Language that is most obvious and easy to be understood is the most proper for public devotion and other religious exercises.

He applies to the matter in hand, that, if they did speak a foreign language, they should beg of God the gift of interpreting it, v. 13. That these were different gifts, see ch. 12:10.

Those might speak and understand a foreign language who could not readily translate it into their own: and yet was this necessary to the church's edification; for the church must understand, that it might be edified, which yet it could not do till the foreign language was translated into its own
 
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Giver

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sunlover1: I do need to head out of state for several hours shortly, but I just wanted to note that I'm not the least bit "offended". Christians ought to be dead to themselves and alive for Christ. With such being the case, any "offense" on my part would only be self-centered. Anyhow, I'll dive back into this thread later this afternoon.

Take care.

P.S. I trust that you and others will note how Dr.Strangelove conveniently avoided all that I posted in my last response to him. His silence (read avoidance of uncomfortable truths) certainly is deafening.

I often wonder about those people that have been taught one is not responsible for his or her sins. Some go so far in order to feel righteous that they separate their spirit from their bodies.

Do such people believe one’s body will go to Hell for sinning and their spirit’s go to Heaven?

Calvin sure messed up Christian theology, but it would seem to me that man has become more educated so as not to accept his teachings any more.

(Matthew 5:27-30) “You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Now for some people I guess they except that the body will be in Hell, and their spirits will be in Heaven. Do you think their spirits will hurt along with their bodies?
 
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Dr.Strangelove

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Language that is most obvious and easy to be understood is the most proper for public devotion and other religious exercises.

Oooh. This is a VERY good point too that I never thought of before. Not only is speaking a foreign language no good when there is none around that understands you but ALSO speaking the same language but using complicated words instead of simple easily understood language would cause un-needed confusion to the brethren and would not edify.

Happens all too often on forums when people are trying to show off using their online thesaurus.

Good one COJ. :thumbsup:
 
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Dr.Strangelove

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Right. I know this... and it's obviously not some known language or you WOULD be speaking to "the people"

I understand this. NO ONE knows... and this tells us it's not some known language.

It would be an 'unknown language' if no-one in the congregation knew the language....UNKNOWN TO THEM! Obviously. But you don't want to see what any logical person (including famous orthodox scholars) see's in those passages coz you wanna justify yerself goin' >>> fah fah gishmeld gusumptifyyyyying hup hup hup onnnnnnnn....

Speaking to God IS good.

Yeah. By praying to Him. In private. In a language you understand. Not in Babbleonian.

Speaking in tongues to God audibly where other's hear is what is not good here.
Because even though the tongue speaker blesses God and edifies himself..
he's not edifying the church.. And when we're at church we're to use our
gifts to edify each other.

You still dont get it. When Paul says your edifying yourself ONLY. It's like saying you are SELFISH. It's NOT GOOD. Did your parents ever say to you 'you only think about yourself'? Did you think...'oh thats good, I'm thinking about myself! Hooray!'

And he's talking about a language that the listeners don't understand. No man PRESENT. There is no teaching Pro-GIBBERISH in the Bible!
 
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Frogster

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Oooh. This is a VERY good point too that I never thought of before. Not only is speaking a foreign language no good when there is none around that understands you but ALSO speaking the same language but using complicated words instead of simple easily understood language would cause un-needed confusion to the brethren and would not edify.

Happens all too often on forums when people are trying to show off using their online thesaurus.

Good one COJ. :thumbsup:

however, he spoke of those who interp...

27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.

Do u think tongues have ceased?
 
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Frogster

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It would be an 'unknown language' if no-one in the congregation knew the language....UNKNOWN TO THEM! Obviously. But you don't want to see what any logical person (including famous orthodox scholars) see's in those passages coz you wanna justify yerself goin' >>> fah fah gishmeld gusumptifyyyyying hup hup hup onnnnnnnn....



Yeah. By praying to Him. In private. In a language you understand. Not in Babbleonian.



You still dont get it. When Paul says your edifying yourself ONLY. It's like saying you are SELFISH. It's NOT GOOD. Did your parents ever say to you 'you only think about yourself'? Did you think...'oh thats good, I'm thinking about myself! Hooray!'

And he's talking about a language that the listeners don't understand. No man PRESENT. There is no teaching Pro-GIBBERISH in the Bible!

when paul said he prays in tongues, more than pall, does the text indicate, it was only in meetings?
 
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sunlover1

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when paul said he prays in tongues, more than pall, does the text indicate, it was only in meetings?
And to edify (build up) is a good thing and something we're called to do.
If i am not edified in my spirit i am weak and carnal, like these mockers below:

But, beloved, remember you the words which were spoken before
of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time,
who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.


Contrast now:
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
And of some have compassion, making a difference...


:wave:
 
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C

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however, he spoke of those who interp...

27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.

Do u think tongues have ceased?

Frog:

THE MIRACLE of Pentecost was like a reversal of Babel (where God confused the languages).

the disciples were UNLEARNED.

their being miraculously endowed with the ability to speak the WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD in the languages of all the men from around the known world, even down to their particular dialects was A SIGN.

that gift remained until people were able to teach each other the languages.

you can not separate the gift of interpretation from the PREVIOUS UNLEARNED BUT KNOWN LANGUAGES.

if you have people standing up in church speaking gibberish, then another stands up pretending to "interpret", there's something very very wrong.

and those who claim to "interpret', KNOW they are making it up. they are under strong delusion.
 
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